Defending vehicles on the beach?

[thumper]

A new poster, Mary N., made a pretty good case for ending the use of vehicles on the beach, claiming it's ironic that the same people that curse people walking on footpaths in the dunes are the same ones who drive their SUV's on what would otherwise be dunes. (There are other reasons she didnt bring up, like oil spills, danger of hitting someone, other people having to breathe the fumes,etc)

Not one of you stepped up to defend why you think its OK. In fact, they even closed the thread to discussion. Is this taboo subject, or, I hate to say, are they ashamed? Won't any of you defend your decision to renew your beach permit? (I let mine lapse after Ivan, and I may not renew it at all now. I agree with Mary, I just thought it was the right thing to do at this point.) We are willing to ridicule people walking on paths (and pulblish their photos unknown to them), so it's only fair we talk about this issue openly.

Those of you who have a beach permit, please tell why its OK, when path walkers aren't. This is an important topic for debate. Won't any of you step up?
-----------
Thumper

[kurt]

I am the only one that can lock threads. Threads are not closed because of content, except when the discussion has changed and would be better served by starting a new thread - which you have done.

[kurt]

I would not have a problem with the end of permits. It would be safer, cleaner, and not as crazy with fireworks on the 4th of July. The increase in the number of permits has been unbelievable in the last few years,. The county gets good revenue from permits and probably won't stop issuing them until someone gets seriously hurt or killed.

I haul a lot of trash and debris off Grayton in my truck. And I also haul people, picnics, toys, boats, and fishing rods on and off. I don't equate the drive on area beside the boardwalk to people trampling dunes. I serve to educate because I know that visitors in the dunes are ignorant and sometimes uncaring. The only solution I see is sand fencing. If it's not erected soon there will be no dunes left to protect.

I welcome discussion about vehicles on the beach - no matter why you are for or against them.

[Wildernester]

In fairness to Mary N., I suggest that you append her eloquent post to this thread, so that others, if they choose, may respond to the points that she made.

[Donna]

It has been my understanding that driving on the beach (which is limited by proximity of the State Park on both east and west) was retained out of respect for some of the Grayton Beach locals who make their living from chartered fishing trips and beach chair/umbrella setups. These are services that we enjoy having, frankly. Also, the beach is long and the sand deep enough that it can challenge the elderly or disabled. If my brother did not have a vehicle permit, my mother would not be able to walk on or even get onto the beach during our visits. I agree that it's probably not the environmentally superior choice, but one has to consider special needs and keep a reasonable balance. I would not like to see my full-time local neighbor lose his business, nor would I like my Mother to never stand at the water's edge at sunset again. The requirements and cost of these permits is basically prohibitive enough that not a lot of people indulge. I would also miss those tailgate/canine sunset gatherings!

[BeachDreamer]

I must admit that it does sound inconsistant to scorn path walkers but defend vehicles. Donna mentioned the benefits of vehicles, but I see that same reasoning being applicable to path walkers. Local photographers make their living taking pictures in the dunes. Elderly or disabled people could more easily access the beach without having to walk farther for an access. Any convenience from the very few locals who are able to drive their vehicles on the beach, could also be applied to the hundreds who trod the dune paths on their way to the beach.

I am by no means defending path walkers and certainly not photographers who should be drawn and quartered for knowingly inflicting damage on the dunes. I am just a little surprised that vehicles are viewed with so much more acceptance and understanding.

[EZ4144]

I will drive on the beach and I will drive in the dunes to runn over somebody that is picking sea oats. Just kidding i don't care if people walk in the dunes or drive on the sand. The funniest thing is people getting stuck at grayton in their cadilac or minivan. Right beside the sign that says no driving on the beach without permit and 4 wheel drive.

[thumper]

Kurt, in fairness, I didn't get that Mary N called you a Nazi. She and Wildernester (and myself?) were just pointing out the "irony" of ridculing path-walkers -- while driving a car on the beach.

Thanks to Donna and Kurt for being brave enough to state your views defending the beach driving. I dont agree, (because there are plenty of handicap-accessible accesses all along 30-A for your mother, enough to justify keeping cars off the beach. And you know that government and commercial industries such as construction and chair services will always have access, regardless, so no one will lose income.) But I applaud your willingness to stand up for what you believe in publicly.

Smiling Joe called for all those who were "guilty" of dune walking to stand up and confess. I'd like to pose the same challenge to all who made the choice to renew their permit after Ivan. (You know who you are). You bought it, so you must believe in it. Educate us. If you can convince me it's OK for the environment, or at least justify the convenience, I'll run down and renew my permit today.

[ShallowsNole]

Reason #1: Without the driving privilege, there is no way to launch boats into the Gulf from our beaches. True, that requires an additional permit, but that is the single most important reason to retain driving on the beach at Grayton. Plus, the beach is flat, and there would not be dunes at the Grayton access (beside the Red Bar) even if driving was prohibited. It is also the best and easiest way for a large family planning to spend all day at the beach to take all of their essentials.

Beyond that, it is now just a status symbol.

For what it's worth, I personally no longer care. Sand and saltwater eats the bottoms out of vehicles anyway, and when I had a 4wd and a beach permit I always got stuck.

[JB]

A question: for those with drive-on permits, how far east or west can they go? I mean, could one theoretically drive on at Grayton and ride the beach all the way to Seacrest?

[OhioBeachBum]

A question: for those with drive-on permits, how far east or west can they go? I mean, could one theoretically drive on at Grayton and ride the beach all the way to Seacrest?

Here's an information link on the subject I found: http://www.waltontaxcollector.com/default.aspx?id=32

There's an excerpt from the relevant county ordinance material here:
http://www.graytonbeach.com/ordinances.html

Some (interesting) additional sections missing from that (above) page I foraged from the full ordinace text (hosted at www.municode.com):

(n) All county residents 65 years of age and over and all disabled persons unable to walk to the beach shall be granted a permit upon proper application, without fee.
(o) All permits, except as provided in this section, shall be limited to the access areas as described in exhibit A attached to Ordinance No. 85-6 and more particularly described as follows:

(1) Grayton Beach: An area extending from the west boundary line of Grayton Beach State Park westward for a distance of 1,600 feet.
(2) Walton Park: An area extending from the east boundary line of Walton Park westward for a distance of 1,600 feet.
(3) Seagrove Beach: An area extending from the east boundary line of One Seagrove Place eastward for a distance of 1,600 feet.
(4) Inlet Beach: An area extending from the east boundary line from Lakeshore Drive eastward for a distance of 600 feet.

(p) All access areas shall be appropriately marked and designated as such.
(q) Upon proper application to the board of county commissioners, a special permit may be issued without charge, during the months of September, October and November, for the purpose of net fishing only, in which event limited access as described in this section shall not apply. These special permittees shall be allowed unrestricted travel along the public beaches of the county during this period.
(r) Upon majority vote by the members of the board of county commissioners, any of the provisions in this section may be waived from time to time upon proper application, and a variance may be granted, notwithstanding the provisions contained in this section.

I thought sections (n) and (q) were particularly interesting...

[thumper]

Theoretically, yes (government and commercial vehicles do it daily.) Legally, no.

Plus, the beach is flat, and there would not be dunes at the Grayton access (beside the Red Bar) even if driving was prohibited.

Is that true? It was always flat and dune-free in that small zone, even though there are dunes on both sides where it is protected? Why not plant sea oats and let the dunes rebuild there for more upland protection?

It is also the best and easiest way for a large family planning to spend all day at the beach to take all of their essentials.

Easiest? Yes. Best? No.

It's also easy and convenient to leave tents up overnight. How many of you with permits were complaining about that? It's not about easy and convenient, or is it? Joe, I'd love to hear your viewpoints on this. You have a lot of perspective about our beach, and I'm sure you can present some good points one way or the other.

[kurt]

Smiling JOe will not be able to post during the days this week. He will probably be on during the evenings. Let's show a little patience for him and others on the forum. Not everyone is logged in 24/7 although they should be.

[kurt]

Kurt, in fairness, I didn't get that Mary N called you a Nazi. She and Wildernester (and myself?) were just pointing out the "irony" of ridculing path-walkers -- while driving a car on the beach.

:oops: Sorry Mary - it was Wildernester making a generalization that seemed to be aimed at all of us locals who were posting about the destruction of the dunes....

Righteous indignation can get ugly.
We have tourists who come here for the first time who understandably do not appreciate the impact that they have on the beach ecosystem. Many of us probably create the same sort of havoc when we visit areas with which we are unfamiliar. A friendly, polite reminder will do more good than a bunch of ranting dune Nazis.

As I sat on the beach yesterday as the sun was setting, I could see much more damage having been done earlier that day by the locals in their four-wheel drive vehicles than all of the white shirted tourists have done this summer. “We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us.”

And I doubt that there are many posters on this board who:
"create the same sort of havoc when we visit areas with which we are unfamiliar".

I don't see anyone driving on the dunes or leaving vehicles on the beach overnight. What damage did you see done to the dunes by vehicles?

JB- the area at Grayton where driving is allowed is about 100 yards east and west of the access. When the lake outlet is open then that side is out. Many years ago the entire beach was driven on. That was before much regulation or law, when there were very few residents. Before 30-A connected Grayton and Seagrove, folks with 4WDs used the beach as a shortcut.

[Beach Runner]

And I doubt that there are many posters on this board who:
"create the same sort of havoc when we visit areas with which we are unfamiliar".

Not a unique situation. Remember "The Ugly American"? Some visitors (and owners) are clueless about dune formation, turtle endangerment, etc., and haven't been educated. Some feel as though they've paid their money, and by gosh, they can do what they please. I prefer to think most fall into the former, not the latter, category. Heck, I own a home here and had no clue that tents harmed the sea turtles. How was I supposed to know that? It didn't, like, come with the closing statement for my mortgage. I know, it was my responsibility to educate myself and not be "The Ugly Beach-House-Owner" - that's not meant to be sarcastic, it's true.

[luvthebeach]

Here's an information link on the subject I found: http://www.waltontaxcollector.com/default.aspx?id=32

There's an excerpt from the relevant county ordinance material here:
http://www.graytonbeach.com/ordinances.html

Some (interesting) additional sections missing from that (above) page I foraged from the full ordinace text (hosted at www.municode.com):

(3) Seagrove Beach: An area extending from the east boundary line of One Seagrove Place eastward for a distance of 1,600 feet.
...

Wow...Didn't realize vehicles were allowed anywhere on Seagrove Beach! I was sitting back minding my own business because I though Grayton Beach and Inlet Beach were the only sections of the beaches on 30-A that allowed for any vehicular traffic! Our condo is near One Seagrove, and I've never seen any vehicles on the beach there. In fact, I'm not even sure where they'd access. I've been reading the posts on this subject assuming that those who live/stay near Grayton Beach did so because, among other things, they wanted the option of driving on their beach, and I respected that. But in the back of my mind I've been thinking "thank God they're not driving on the beaches down on this end"!! I enjoy being able to set up my chair near the water's edge, enjoy the sound of the waves and children playing. I'd hate the thought of hearing roaring engines nearby!!

I don't like the idea of any vehicles on the beach. Any beach I've ever been on that allowed it ended up with oil splatters and plain old ugly black marks on the otherwise clean sand. I don't agree that the only way to get an entire family on the beach for the day is with a vehicle. We've always managed to get our chairs, umbrellas, etc. on the beach just by everyone old enough and able enough pitching in. And tailgate gatherings? What's wrong with just bringing plain old lounge chairs? Seems to me that tailgating could just invite trouble. In my opinion, vehicular traffic on the beach does nothing but create a hazard for the innocent families who are trying to enjoy a safe, fun day at the beach, not to mention disrupt the peace and quiet. If I really thought we had a problem of vehicles on the beaches here in Seagrove, it wouldn't take us long to begin looking for another place (on 30-A of course ) where the beaches were off-limits to vehicles!

[GraytonBound]

i cannot "justify the convenience" nor would i try to convince you to renew your permit...the only "good" reason i can think of is that we absolutely love it...i feel like our kids are safer in western lake than they are in the gulf.....there are lots of lovely people there that treat each other like family....and it is convenient....but i understand why others would think those reasons are unimportant. Truthfully.....we always obey the law, watch very carefully for pedestrians....dont drink out of glass bottles, etc etc & i did not realize we are doing any damage to the beach.....walking on dunes is illegal & driving at grayton with a permit is not....


i would like to hear from others as to the damage we are doing to the beach & if so why it's legal?

[kurt]

Wow...Didn't realize vehicles were allowed anywhere on Seagrove Beach!

That is old info.

[GraytonBound]

i would not want trucks on the beach at seacrest either...but grayton is different (in my humble opinion)......different in size.....different in the fact that it is not lined with condos.....i dont see that it would pose the same threat as a car driving down seagrove.....although i cannot say that it is not dangerous, just not the same as the narrow parts of 30-a.....


along those same lines.....the trucks hauling in sand seem to be VERY dangerous....they have been flying up & down seacrest today, not even bothering to slow down at the beach walkovers....if a kid steps off that walkover at the wrong time it's gonna be deadly.....and the driver does NOT appear to be looking at anything but bikinis.

[thumper]

Oh my..."legal" should not be the criteria, in my opinion. We all know how intelligent government typically is. Last week, it was "legal" to put 6.2 color sand on the beach. Smarter minds prevailed and changed the ordinance. It's about good conscience and doing the right thing. Right? Laws change as human minds evolve.

[luvthebeach]

That is old info.

Oh Kurt...thank you!thank you!thankyou!....for the wonderful news ...you just made my day!

As I said earlier, I respect the folks who feel differently and have moved to/choose to stay in an area that allows for beach vehicles. I'd just hate to see it expanded to include additional beaches. We bought our modest piece of paradise in Seagrove because we love the peacefulness of the area, especially the beaches. We love seeing families, couples, etc. enjoying the warm white sand and playing in the surf and fathers helping their children build sandcastles, all without having to worry about cars driving right beside them.

Oh....did I remember to say thanks for the news?!

[GraytonBound]

on what would otherwise be dunes. (There are other reasons she didnt bring up, like oil spills, danger of hitting someone, other people having to breathe the fumes,etc)


-----------
Thumper

otherwise be dunes...would they be?

oil spills.....personally havent seen one or left one

danger of hitting someone.....cant speak for the generel public but we personally are extremely careful

breath the fumes.......i find that one hard to swallow as the truck is only running for a minute, twice a day.

You didnt like the fact that I defended it because it was legal.....but i'm still not convinced it's wrong ?

[Wildernester]

:oops: Sorry Mary - it was Wildernester making a generalization that seemed to be aimed at all of us locals who were posting about the destruction of the dunes....




And I doubt that there are many posters on this board who:
"create the same sort of havoc when we visit areas with which we are unfamiliar".

I don't see anyone driving on the dunes or leaving vehicles on the beach overnight. What damage did you see done to the dunes by vehicles?

JB- the area at Grayton where driving is allowed is about 100 yards east and west of the access. When the lake outlet is open then that side is out. Many years ago the entire beach was driven on. That was before much regulation or law, when there were very few residents. Before 30-A connected Grayton and Seagrove, folks with 4WDs used the beach as a shortcut.

You did not include my later post where I apologized for my own righteous indignation. My reference to "dune Nazis" was in the same vein as Seinfeld refers to the "Soup Nazi."

Regardless, something Mary N. or I posted has prompted a reasoned discussion of the virtues and vices of having vehicles on beaches. For that I glad.

It just seems that if we are to discuss walking on the dunes, we must discuss driving through the dunes and on the beach. While my house is a half mile from Grayton Beach, as many do, I consider it my beach. When I see people who I know live on or near other beaches, on which they do not drive, come to "my beach" and drive their vehicles from which they dump their trash, I tend to become - well - righteously indignant.

[GraytonBound]

Y
It just seems that if we are to discuss walking on the dunes, we must discuss driving through the dunes and on the beach. While my house is a half mile from Grayton Beach, as many do, I consider it my beach. When I see people who I know live on or near other beaches, on which they do not drive, come to "my beach" and drive their vehicles from which they dump their trash, I tend to become - well - righteously indignant.

Have never dumped my trash but have certainly picked up some (that was not mine) and driven it to a garbage can. Seems to me that would happen regardless of trucks being there...as a matter of fact would argue that more people would leave their trash without a vehicle to carry it off in.

[kurt]

I understand. Like I said, it will be closed at some point and I won't mind. By the way - The Red Bar will be closed someday also, and Grayton Beach will become a sleepy little town again with no traffic and no beach driving. Hopefully there will be towering dunes to appreciate.

Right now the beach gets trashed every day by a lot of people - no matter whether they walk or drive on.

Gotta go - I'm driving down there to clean up, if the rain holds off. Maybe if I see you out there with a trash bag in your hand we can discuss further.

[thumper]

I have no problem with anyones opinions, in fact I'm glad your speaking up for yours! We need to hear everyone's viewpoints so we can all increase our awareness. Please know that Kurt (who is there quite a bit) is the one who first mentioned the concern for people getting hit. I have seen oil, as I'm sure others have. And you're right, ultimately its not a lot of fumes, but tell me you haven't had to hold your breath sometimes after a car rolls past you on the beach? youre right, though that's not an environmental issue, just a nuisance.

My intention is not to be a trouble maker. This is a topic whose time has come, and I jumped on the opportunity when I saw those other posts. If I am coming off as anything other than community-minded, I apologize. Looking forward to hearing more opinions.

[luvthebeach]

Hopefully there will be towering dunes to appreciate.

....and that takes us right back to that other thread!

Won't it be wonderful to one day see those beautiful tall dunes covered with sea oats again?!

[Beach Runner]

Yeah, luvthebeach, check out my post at Seaside and Seagrove damage/access - SoWal Beaches Forum.

:'(

[luvthebeach]

Yeah, luvthebeach, check out my post at http://www.sowal.com/bb/showthread.p...6034#post16034.

:'(

Wow.....that sure puts it in perspective, doesn't it?!

[Beach Runner]

Wow.....that sure puts it in perspective, doesn't it?!

No kidding.

[OhioBeachBum]

Wow...Didn't realize vehicles were allowed anywhere on Seagrove Beach!

The waltontaxcollector site notes that both Seagrove and Walton Park areas mentioned in the ordinance are currently closed.

[GraytonBound]

on the contrary thumper i think you did a good job of furthering this conversation without being too argumentative.....you stated your opinion & didnt blast anyone for theirs


as i have nothing else to add i will gladly sit back & read the opinions of others.....thanks

[lurker1]

I understand and respect why some don't like it. At first I was a bit taken aback by what I thought was an obnoxious thing. It is difficult to defend on an intellectual basis. However, it seems that it is a long-standing priveledge of living here. While there was once many places to drive on the beach, Grayton is the last. As long as it's permitted, I'll do it.

Yes, some drive too fast, because they have "street" tires. I worry that there will someday be a tragic incident. But dang, admit it, isn't it cool to leave all your chairs and beach toys loaded in a dedicated beach-mobile? Just climb in and go!

[Smiling JOe]

I wish I felt up to posting and reading more. I will post some thoughts on this subject later. I have food poisoning and have been out of it since about 1:00am this morning. Hopefully, I will recover in the next day or two and will be coherent enough to voice my thoughts in a clear way. I have read this thread, and hear very valid points, but will later, try to clear up some things for you guys. Keep writing your opinions. I enjoy reading your thoughts and ideas, but feel too crappy to write. I will throw out a thread for you to read in the meantime. It may be a little vague to most of you, but perhaps you can further research the info regarding the lease from the state to the County and driving priviledges. I bet Kurt is aware of this, hence his thoughts mentioned earlier regarding Grayton Beach going back to a beautiful and natural area.

Best to All

[seagrovelover]

Hey SJ....... sure hope you are feeling better soon!!!!

[luvthebeach]

I wish I felt up to posting and reading more. I will post some thoughts on this subject later. I have food poisoning and have been out of it since about 1:00am this morning.

Ohmygosh SJ....hope you're feeling better soon! Food poisoning...I've been there, done that, and it is absolutely the most awful feeling. Take care!

P.S. Hopefully you didn't get sick from any SoWal restaurant! It'd definitely be a reason to take that name off of the "great restaurants" list!

[Beach Runner]

Yeah, but you know, if seafood is involved, food poisoning can happen at the best of restaurants or seafood vendors. About five years ago I was sick for an entire month after eating bad shrimp from Shrimpers, but I've only heard good things about that place since then. Stuff happens.

Hope you feel better, SJ.

[kurt]

Grayton Beach was beautiful this evening. No sun, very still and flat, cloudy and monotone, with an obscured moon. Lots of sea critters out. I saw many birds, fish, crabs, and a sting ray. The lake is still open to the Gulf and probably would have closed in the next day or two but we got a lot of rain today.

The beach and dunes from the State Park on the east of Western Lake all the way over to Gulf Trace is nearly clean with just a few big pieces of debris (lumber) that I can't get in my truck.

[luvthebeach]

Yeah, but you know, if seafood is involved, food poisoning can happen at the best of restaurants or seafood vendors. About five years ago I was sick for an entire month after eating bad shrimp from Shrimpers, but I've only heard good things about that place since then. Stuff happens.

But I bet you haven't been back there since, right?! At least that's how I feel about the place where I got my food poisoning! The only other time I got food poisoning, it was totally my fault. It was in the middle of summer many years ago, and the a/c wasn't working in our car. We had stopped by a well-known yummy Italian sandwich shop in the city and picked up a couple of their special sandwiches, topped with lots of mayo. It was about a 45 minute drive back home. Hadn't even thought about the fact that the sandwiches had sat in the back of the car, with the temp outside nearly 100 degrees! Luckily my son was a baby, so he didn't eat any. My husband was okay with his. But me........ugh! I'd never felt so sick in all my life!

[Beach Runner]

LOL. It's sort of like when I was a kid and ate too many Reese's and got sick. Even now when I look at a Reese's, it makes me nauseated.

Uh-oh! We're A.D.D.'ing - getting off the topic of this thread. I guess we get a grade of F for not adhering to the theme.

[GraytonBound]

SJ: so i guess you wont be meeting me at cocos?.....seriously though i am SO SORRY to hear you feeling so bad.....go to that health food store you talk about & get some good probiotics....it worked for otter after mexico & now the little otter is on them....


KURT: wish we had gone to grayton tonight to see the critters & help with the cleanup efforts....actually we stayed in tonight which was a nice change of pace....but we will be there throughout the week & pick up anything we see

[luvthebeach]

LOL. It's sort of like when I was a kid and ate too many Reese's and got sick. Even now when I look at a Reese's, it makes me nauseated.

Uh-oh! We're A.D.D.'ing - getting off the topic of this thread. I guess we get a grade of F for not adhering to the theme.

Oops...you're right BR! Sorry about that Kurt! And I'm sure we don't want to start another thread on food poisoning experiences, do we?

[seagrovelover]

Grayton Beach was beautiful this evening. No sun, very still and flat, cloudy and monotone, with an obscured moon. Lots of sea critters out. I saw many birds, fish, crabs, and a sting ray. The lake is still open to the Gulf and probably would have closed in the next day or two but we got a lot of rain today.

The beach and dunes from the State Park on the east of Western Lake all the way over to Gulf Trace is nearly clean with just a few big pieces of debris (lumber) that I can't get in my truck.

AHHHHHH Kurt, thanks for the visual, you just made rainy, muggy St. Louis leave my head for a while.......

[luvthebeach]

AHHHHHH Kurt, thanks for the visual, you just made rainy, muggy St. Louis leave my head for a while.......

Hey neighbor....that's my hometown too! We've had some serious thunderstorms, haven't we? I understand some folks are still without electricity. And they're predicting even more for tomorrow.

Ahhhhh....what I wouldn't give to be on the beach at this moment! Hopefully that'll happen very soon. Unfortunately work back here keeps getting in the way of fun in the sun!

[SlowMovin]

It's sort of like when I was a kid and ate too many Reese's and got sick. Even now when I look at a Reese's, it makes me nauseated.

I have that same problem with vodka. That's why I stick to scotch.

[Camp Creek Kid]

Back to the topic of driving on the beach . . .

The current drive-on accesses have to maintained for emergency vehicles. They are also necessary for others to get on the beach for clean up and repairs to homes and boardwalks. So, letting the dunes rebuild in those small areas wouldn't happen anyway.

Also, the drive-on accesses have no parking lots so if vehicles were banned, it would basically close the accesses.

The issue is controlling the number of vehicles on any given day. Perhaps the county can go to a system similar to the beach fire permits where you buy a permit for a specific day. You could may a reservation several months ahead for the popular days. This would require planning ahead, but would certainly help.

[reece]

i don't think they should be able to drive on the beach myself. however, we usually plop down on the east side of t-time when we are there, and from what i can tell, the cars over toward the west are usually just sitting there, not driving at all. not bothering us at all. It seems like a very short space, and i don't think much driving can actually happen
i think that they should allow permits only for the folks who are putting in or taking out a boat. doesn't really seem to be much point otherwise.

reece

[kathydwells]

I have that same problem with vodka. That's why I stick to scotch.

Mine was Tequila...that is why I stick to beer now.

[kathydwells]

SJ, I am sending good thoughts your way. I hope you feel better real soon. Take Care!!!! I miss reading your posts!!!!

[seagrovelover]

Hey neighbor....that's my hometown too! We've had some serious thunderstorms, haven't we? I understand some folks are still without electricity. And they're predicting even more for tomorrow.

Ahhhhh....what I wouldn't give to be on the beach at this moment! Hopefully that'll happen very soon. Unfortunately work back here keeps getting in the way of fun in the sun!

Hi luvthebeach!!! I have a friend that lives in valleypark who just got her electric turned on last night!!!! her whole fridge had to be thrown away, what a waste GO CARDS!!!!!!!!