How are you going to Vote on Amendment 1?

[Smiling JOe]

I understand. I've been yelling for a long time about the @ssbackward way the BCC sets the budget, based on the property valuations and current tax rates, rather than setting the budget for needs, then setting the millage based on the needs.

Remember that Early Voting has started in Florida. I voted this morning, and it took all of two minutes, including the time to read the entire ballot.

[SHELLY]

http://emeraldcoastrealtors.com/vide...MF%20Gaetz.wmv

Here is a short video worth watching...

BH,

Thanks for the video. Admittedly Gaetz' clear and concise explanation of the bill is the best I've heard to date coming from the "Yes" camp.

Having said that, the story he uses to support the portability issue is laughable--pumping money into the economy by purchasing a new basketball hoop?

Moreover, I call 'BS' on his prediction that a "no" vote will make the legislature essentially say, "Well, the folks don't want tax reform--OK, so where are we going for lunch this afternoon?" Whereas a "yes" vote will make them say, "WOW the people are really serious about cutting taxes...let's order up some additional midnight oil and work through the weekends and holidays to cut, cut, cut their taxes even more!!"

And just so Gaetz' and the other Floriduh legislators get a clue, I'll send an e-mail that says, "Not good enough, try again." They should at least give it more consideration than they did when they selected Key Lime as the "Official State of Florida Pie." http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sectio...x?BillId=32043

[Busta Hustle]

gaetz.don.web@flsenate.gov

Let your voice be heard...

[Smiling JOe]

I totally missed this until I was reading the ballot this morning, but the additional homestead deduction and $25K business deduction on tangibles, doesn't apply to the taxes going to the schools, which is by far our most expensive part of our property taxes.

[Smiling JOe]

Florida House of Representatives in front of a chart showing the 2008-09 General Revenue Outlook as the House Policy & Budget Council began working with the slumping projected revenue figures during committee week on Tuesday, January 8, 2008, in Tallahassee, Florida. Front row left-to-right shows: Chairman and Speaker-designate Rep. Ray Sansom, R-Fort Walton Beach; Vice Chair Rep. Stan Mayfield, R-Vero Beach; and Rep. John Seiler, D-Pompano Beach.

[wrobert]

However; we have had this "legislated" millage cap in place for years, and the BCC (and other counties) have ignored it. Where is the state when this happens? I know of no agency I can call and report my county commission for violating state law.

What legislated milliage cap are you referring too? The only cap I am aware of is the 10 mill cap which we are significantly lower. The school district was close to that in the eighties when millage was up to around 8 or so before people started moving into the area.

FDLE as well as the State Attorney's office handles violations of state law in the area. I remember a commissioner doing 'weekends' at a local federal correctional facility for violations of the law in the past.

[wrobert]

I totally missed this until I was reading the ballot this morning, but the additional homestead deduction and $25K business deduction on tangibles, doesn't apply to the taxes going to the schools, which is by far our most expensive part of our property taxes.

The forum in DeFuniak Springs and the information I have seen states that the TPP deduction does apply to schools. Patrick Pilcher says that will remove over 90% of the businesses from paying the tax each year.

[Here4Good]

What legislated milliage cap are you referring too? The only cap I am aware of is the 10 mill cap which we are significantly lower. The school district was close to that in the eighties when millage was up to around 8 or so before people started moving into the area.

FDLE as well as the State Attorney's office handles violations of state law in the area. I remember a commissioner doing 'weekends' at a local federal correctional facility for violations of the law in the past.

"Millage cap" was the wrong word to use - I meant the legislated millage rollback to last year's revenue levels.

[jlweathers]

was surprised that so many people share my opinion of this proposal being grossly inept & a poor attempt at "reform". The severity of this problem is huge & requires adequate action - this proposal is weak.

The increased homestead exemption is estimated to provide a few hundred dollars in savings....well how much has your property insurance premiums increased since reform? seems like multiple "special one time assessments" has wiped out any benefit.

A 10% cap on non-homestead property....when does anyone think that property values are going to increase by >= 10%? Not anytime soon & probably should not ever happen in any one year.

The $25k tangible personal property exemption is suppose to alleviate some 80% of those tax payers from shelling out $, but again only another few hundred dollars of savings...small peanuts.

I actually like the portability but not enough to salvage the whole amendment.

Vote NO to express your displeasure with this halfhearted effort! Our politicians dallied around for an entire year to come up with a plan and then threw this together to give the appearance of "accomplishment".


Our good Gov. Christ has sorely disappointed me & proven to be a champion of irrelevant/ineffective policy.

[wrobert]

The increased homestead exemption is estimated to provide a few hundred dollars in savings....well how much has your property insurance premiums increased since reform? seems like multiple "special one time assessments" has wiped out any benefit.

$98 in Walton County at the current millage rates. But taxes and insurance, while both are common problems that CC states he is fixing, are two seperate issues.

A 10% cap on non-homestead property....when does anyone think that property values are going to increase by >= 10%? Not anytime soon & probably should not ever happen in any one year.

Average valuation in Walton County went up over 50% in 2004 and has risen over 10% a couple of years after that. While it is not going to happen this year, under current standards, if a particular neighborhood were to get 'hot' again, it is possible without the cap for this protection to be needed.

The $25k tangible personal property exemption is suppose to alleviate some 80% of those tax payers from shelling out $, but again only another few hundred dollars of savings...small peanuts.

Over 90% in Walton County. But the costs to have the paperwork completed usually far outstrip the tax. It is a nuisance. I do not see why something should be kept since it is a small amount.

Vote NO to express your displeasure with this halfhearted effort! Our politicians dallied around for an entire year to come up with a plan and then threw this together to give the appearance of "accomplishment".

And hopefully they will take this as a sign of displeasure instead of just an indication that the current system is not as broke as they thought.

[Smiling JOe]

The forum in DeFuniak Springs and the information I have seen states that the TPP deduction does apply to schools. Patrick Pilcher says that will remove over 90% of the businesses from paying the tax each year.

Did you read the ballot, when you voted? I am pretty certain that mine read that it didn't apply to the taxes going to the school.

[jlweathers]

$98 in Walton County at the current millage rates. But taxes and insurance, while both are common problems that CC states he is fixing, are two seperate issues.

correct in that they are seperate issues....but insurance reform much like the proposed tax reform is additional evidence that the proposals are relatively ineffective in accomploshing what the politicians would have you believe they will do.

Average valuation in Walton County went up over 50% in 2004 and has risen over 10% a couple of years after that. While it is not going to happen this year, under current standards, if a particular neighborhood were to get 'hot' again, it is possible without the cap for this protection to be needed.

this speaks to my point as to why this is irrelevant. 10% appreciation will not occur anytime in the near future & likely should not ever occur. further, i am not out to protect people in "hot" neighberhoods but rather floridians in general

Over 90% in Walton County. But the costs to have the paperwork completed usually far outstrip the tax. It is a nuisance. I do not see why something should be kept since it is a small amount.

i believe you are correct that the cost/benefit is inefficient; so don't sell this as reform & how much you are doing for small business owners.

And hopefully they will take this as a sign of displeasure instead of just an indication that the current system is not as broke as they thought.

the mechanism to ensure that my "no" vote is not misinterpreted is simply being vocal....& i will let them know of my displeasure....will they listen & what great plan will they come up with next are the only questions.

[ecopal]

Did you read the ballot, when you voted? I am pretty certain that mine read that it didn't apply to the taxes going to the school.

Only some portions of the amendment will not affect school taxes.

The #2 (Portability) and #3 ($25k tangible property exemption) portions of the amendment WILL directly affect schools.

Broward county projects losing 144.5 million tax dollars over the next 5 years if this is passed. They also project they will have to layoff 1200 employees the first year.

Check out these websites for further information.
http://www.btuonline.com/PTAC_2007_home.htm
http://www.browardschools.com/info/tax_reform.htm

[JustaLocal]

I find it best to vote against amendments unless there is a reason to vote for them.

I forgot to update this after I went to the WCTA meeting last week. I still think it is better not to keep making changes by constitutional amendment, but in this case have decided to vote YES.

I believe the legislature will just throw up their hands and claim they really tried if it doesn't pass. I would hope they would go back and try again, but just don't believe they will. The portability and the tangible personal property tax parts are certainly better than nothing. Voting yes will not stop the work of the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Committee.

[Andy A]

I forgot to update this after I went to the WCTA meeting last week. I still think it is better not to keep making changes by constitutional amendment, but in this case have decided to vote YES.

I believe the legislature will just throw up their hands and claim they really tried if it doesn't pass. I would hope they would go back and try again, but just don't believe they will. The portability and the tangible personal property tax parts are certainly better than nothing. Voting yes will not stop the work of the Florida Taxation and Budget Reform Committee.

I am of the opinion that it will go just the other way and the legislature, in their infinite wisdom, will say, "There, we fixed that problem!" and move on. I'd rather be able to call them and hound them to do something worthwhile after the amendment is defeated. Also, why can't it be a piece of legislation instead of an amendment to the Constitution? When pigs, bullet trains and class size become part of a state's Constitution, something is wrong with the legisative process in that state. Our legislature can and should be REQUIRED to do better.

[JustaLocal]

I am of the opinion that it will go just the other way and the legislature, in their infinite wisdom, will say, "There, we fixed that problem!" and move on. I'd rather be able to call them and hound them to do something worthwhile after the amendment is defeated. Also, why can't it be a piece of legislation instead of an amendment to the Constitution? When pigs, bullet trains and class size become part of a state's Constitution, something is wrong with the legisative process in that state. Our legislature can and should be REQUIRED to do better.

I understand your point of view as well.

The pregnant pig thing was what first turned me off of amendments. I can't remember what all was on the ballot that time, but it seems like there were maybe 11. I may have voted yes on one - keeping the death penalty? maybe. As it turned out, if I'm remembering correctly, all but one - maybe two - did pass. I was so disappointed. It is almost as if once it is on the ballot, it doesn't even have to make sense to pass.

[beachmouse]

I liked the pregnant pig one because of unintended consequences. Those kinds of pig farms produce huge amounts of, um, pig waste. Like farmhands occasional drown in the 'lagoons' level of pig waste. Which is the last thing we need getting into potable water sources down here.

So I saw a yes vote on the pig ammendment as more of an additional way of protecting drinking water sources than anything else.

[JustaLocal]

I liked the pregnant pig one because of unintended consequences. Those kinds of pig farms produce huge amounts of, um, pig waste. Like farmhands occasional drown in the 'lagoons' level of pig waste. Which is the last thing we need getting into potable water sources down here.

So I saw a yes vote on the pig ammendment as more of an additional way of protecting drinking water sources than anything else.

At least two sides to every story.

Just curious - what were the "unintended consequences?" Did the amendment help this problem?

[wrobert]

At least two sides to every story.

Just curious - what were the "unintended consequences?" Did the amendment help this problem?

The one pig farm that was doing it is now closed. Wonder if those workers found another job? Pork prices went up. That has to be a good thing cause pork is probably not the best thing for people to eat. And obesity is a problem in this country, so people not being able to afford food due to an increase in government regulation is probably a good thing.

I guess I need to go back to work and quit trying to be funny this afternoon.

[beachmouse]

The pig ammendment prevented an industry that produces large amounts of hazardous waste, and that is generally not well regulated compared to other types of haz-mat producing industries from setting up shop in the state.

If the Carolinas or Iowa want to deal with the kinds of problems assocaited with that type of farming, then, hey, farmland for that type of hog production is probably cheaper there anyways.

[wrobert]

The pig ammendment prevented an industry that produces large amounts of hazardous waste, and that is generally not well regulated compared to other types of haz-mat producing industries from setting up shop in the state.

If the Carolinas or Iowa want to deal with the kinds of problems assocaited with that type of farming, then, hey, farmland for that type of hog production is probably cheaper there anyways.

Here is the amendment:
Florida Animal Cruelty Amendment: Limiting Cruel and Inhumane Confinement of Pigs During Pregnancy
Citation: Florida Amendment Article X Section 19
Summary:
This ballot proposal addresses the inhumane treatment of animals, specifically, pregnant pigs. To prevent cruelty to animals and as recommended by The Humane Society of the United States, no person shall confine a pig during pregnancy in a cage, crate or other enclosure, or tether a pregnant pig, on a farm so that the pig is prevented from turning around freely, except for veterinary purposes and during the prebirthing period; provides definitions, penalties, and an effective date.


How in the world does this shut down pig production in Florida? Granted it was inhumane. My understanding is it was a practice done by one large operation in central Florida that stopped voluntarily when it received media attention. I would think we should be more concerned about phosphate mining if we are going to worry about water pollution. But back to unintended consequences. This amendment was used to get the voters to pass the 60% initiative, which now makes it harder for citizens to get something added to the constitution.

[Andy A]

Back to the point I was originally trying to make. Why can't we do these kind of things through legislation? Much as I hate to say it, probably because the legislature as a whole is smarter and better informed than the general populace. Amending the constitution should be saved for more important things than pregnant pigs. WaltonGOP makes a good point about the 60% rule. Before that passed, as I remember, a simple majority could amend the constitution. A pure and simple disaster!

[TreeFrog]

Two no votes from Casa Frog.

Call me cynical, but I'm tired of being asked to accept this stuff that's being passed off to us as a good idea - by policiticians who are more interested in getting reelected than they are in the hard and politically risky business of tackling tough issues in a way that works in the public's long-term interest. Give us some statesmen and a little tough love, and we'll see real improvements for everyone, rather than pandering to special interests.

[Bob]

SOH should never have been passed in the first place, but it did because of greed and the 50 percent threshold. No one has a firm grip on the "fix". Of all the posters here, who has recommended getting rid of the source of the problem? You folks are arguing over minutiae that won't change the source of the problem. It's not government in this case...it's bad law.

[TooFarTampa]

Back to the point I was originally trying to make. Why can't we do these kind of things through legislation? Much as I hate to say it, probably because the legislature as a whole is smarter and better informed than the general populace. Amending the constitution should be saved for more important things than pregnant pigs. WaltonGOP makes a good point about the 60% rule. Before that passed, as I remember, a simple majority could amend the constitution. A pure and simple disaster!

Funny how the amendment about amendments passed with less than 60 percent!

Regarding your main point, here is a nice summation from Howard Troxler, my personal guru of Reason and Sanity:

"On the question of elections -- anything that changes the way property is taxed at less than full value (homestead exemption, Save Our Homes, etc.) has to be changed in our Constitution. But any kind of cap on millages, etc. could possibly be done by statute without an election, as were the millage rollback and prospecive caps passed last spring."

[wrobert]

SOH should never have been passed in the first place, but it did because of greed and the 50 percent threshold. No one has a firm grip on the "fix". Of all the posters here, who has recommended getting rid of the source of the problem? You folks are arguing over minutiae that won't change the source of the problem. It's not government in this case...it's bad law.

OKAY! Let's get rid of SOH. I am all for it. Total fairness in the tax system where we all pay on the values. Young, old, students, seniors, widowers, veterans. Let us make it totally fair.

Now let me know just how the heck you would get something like that passed. Ain't gonna happen. Maybe that is why no one is discussing that as a possible fix.

[tiredtaxpayer]

Not one of you supports the elimination of SOH. It's bad law, because it benefits an entitled class. All of this back and forth on voting no or yes is window dressing hiding your own greed.

Now this type of talk just burns my a**!!

My greed huh?? You think wanting some of my money back from a goverment that STEALS from you in the first place is a bad idea?? I work in south Walton and live in South Walton in a house that has lost 400,000 dollars in equity the last two years and you don't think I deserve a little relief from those freaking ninnies in Gov'Mint?

If you got too much disposible cash I advise you to go down on 30A and start handing it out. I for one DO NOT put all of my trust in "so called" officals I continue to see WASTE our hard earned dollars on foolish pet projects that benefit few...a few examples you say???

----$260,000 [and growing] in signs that tell you, your are--- where you are.

-----275,000 for cross walks that don't work.


-----The Greenway Trail winds around South Walton High School and neighboring areas.

The county paid $650,000 for the trail, which has been in the works since 1999 but was delayed because of legal issues dealing with the county’s property around the South Walton Courthouse Annex, Meadows said.

And a multitude of others AND I STILL DON'T HAVE A DECENT PLAYGROUND FOR MY KIDS.

VOTE YES IT'S A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

[JustaLocal]

SOH should never have been passed in the first place, but it did because of greed and the 50 percent threshold. No one has a firm grip on the "fix". Of all the posters here, who has recommended getting rid of the source of the problem? You folks are arguing over minutiae that won't change the source of the problem. It's not government in this case...it's bad law.

I disagree with you.

[raven]

Here's an article from Tampa with another slant:

Better than nothing; is that good enough?
By HOWARD TROXLER
Published January 3, 2008

Maybe you are thinking:

"Thank goodness that the holidays are over! Now I can turn my full attention to figuring out this property tax thing on the Jan. 29 ballot."

Hey, that's just what I was thinking, too! This is a big decision. So, let's take a look.

Amendment 1 would do four things:

(1) It would increase Florida's "homestead" tax exemption. The way it works now, we don't tax the first $25,000 of a home's value. The new total tax break would vary, but a typical figure is $40,000.

(2) The amendment also would change the rules for the "Save Our Homes" tax break for homesteads. The tax break would become "portable," or transferable to a new home.

(3) Businesses would get a little help as well, a tax exemption for their first $25,000 of tangible personal property.

(4) All nonhomestead property also would get a cap of 10 percent a year on how fast its taxable value could go up. That's not as good as the 3 percent cap homeowners have, but it's better than the double-digit jumps of recent years.

Now to the pros and cons.

Before we go through the reasons to vote against it, be sure to remember the really good reasons to vote for it.

Hey, look, it's a tax cut. Millions of Floridians will get a bigger break. Nonhomestead property, including businesses, will get a little help, and protection against future double-digit hikes.

Maybe we should do other reform later, according to this line of argument. But at least Amendment 1 is a start.

As a second reason for voting yes, some people hope the "portable" tax break under Save Our Homes will help the real estate market, since people no longer have to stay in their old home to keep their tax break.

Now, for some of the arguments against Amendment 1:

It gives the most help to homeowners, who already get the best tax break, and it gives the least help to those who need it most.

It doesn't fix the underlying unfairness in Florida's tax structure.

It doesn't reverse any of the big local government tax increases of recent years.

It gives the average homeowner an insultingly small break, a couple of hundred bucks a year.

It doesn't do enough for business.

It might even make future tax reform harder to pass.

It would require even deeper cuts in local services, in exchange for a fairly small savings for the typical taxpayer.

Whew! That is a lot of criticism. But even if it all is true, there's still the "better than nothing" argument.

My own thinking is that the Legislature took the easy way out with Amendment 1.

Instead of a thoughtful, coherent reform, the Legislature held a quick three-day session in October, threw in a higher tax break for homeowners, stuck on a couple of sops to business, and called it quits. This is a shallow way to run the state.

If you like the arguments for voting yes, and you agree that this is better than nothing, then go right ahead, and I will cheer for you.

But me, I kinda hope the voters shoot it down and tell the Legislature: Try again, and do it better.

-----------------------------------

By the way, Charlie would like you to give $10 to help foot the bill to advertise 'your' tax cut: http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/03/images/yeson1.pdf

Apparently he didn't get enough from his NYC $1,000-a-person fundraiser hosted by Donald Trump.

http://www.theledger.com/article/200...712080390/1004


.

they really think we're schmucks don't they? pay no attention to the man behind the curtain............

[InletBchDweller]

outcome? anyone?

[wrobert]

outcome? anyone?

Yes on 1 passes.

McCain

Clinton

[InletBchDweller]

Yes on 1 passes.

McCain

Clinton

thanks, I dont have local channels. (direct tv)

[wrobert]

thanks, I dont have local channels. (direct tv)

np

http://enight.dos.state.fl.us/

[Beach Princess]

I voted Yea

[TreeFrog]

Yes on 1 passes.

Surely there's an appropriate P.T. Barnum quote...

[John R]

Surely there's an appropriate P.T. Barnum quote...

Look out sir, that elephant just took a shi...

[beachmouse]

Hi, my name is Mouse, and I'm now every Florida municipality's worst nightmare. I live in one of the lowest tax rate counties in the state right now, and I'm taking my low, low property taxes with me wherever I move in the state for hopefully the next 50 years.

So Brevard County, Palm Beach County , or Hillsborough County, if I move there in the next couple of years, you're not going to get $6K a year from me in taxes like you would from someone who moved here from New York, but instead you get my annual contribution of $29.95 for fire protection. Maybe if I'm feeling generous, I'll kick in an extra $5 for the road department to fix the pothole down the road.

[rapunzel]

My Brother: So, how should I vote on that Amendment?

Me: I'm voting no.

My Brother: I can't even understand it. What will it do?

Me: I don't know, I can't understand it either. It seems like a crappy piece of legislation they slopped together.

My Brother: How'd you decide to vote no?

Me: Shelly said to.

My Brother: Who's Shelly?

Me: I don't know, just do what he says.

[TooFarTampa]

My Brother: So, how should I vote on that Amendment?

Me: I'm voting no.

My Brother: I can't even understand it. What will it do?

Me: I don't know, I can't understand it either. It seems like a crappy piece of legislation they slopped together.

My Brother: How'd you decide to vote no?

Me: Shelly said to.

My Brother: Who's Shelly?

Me: I don't know, just do what he says.

[BeachSiO2]

My Brother: So, how should I vote on that Amendment?

Me: I'm voting no.

My Brother: I can't even understand it. What will it do?

Me: I don't know, I can't understand it either. It seems like a crappy piece of legislation they slopped together.

My Brother: How'd you decide to vote no?

Me: Shelly said to.

My Brother: Who's Shelly?

Me: I don't know, just do what he says.

THAT IS FREAKING AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FloridaLegislat]

Case Closed! No more work to be done. The Florida Legislature has fixed that little tax problem for all you poor fools, uhm folks. ...again.

[wrobert]

Hi, my name is Mouse, and I'm now every Florida municipality's worst nightmare. I live in one of the lowest tax rate counties in the state right now, and I'm taking my low, low property taxes with me wherever I move in the state for hopefully the next 50 years.

So Brevard County, Palm Beach County , or Hillsborough County, if I move there in the next couple of years, you're not going to get $6K a year from me in taxes like you would from someone who moved here from New York, but instead you get my annual contribution of $29.95 for fire protection. Maybe if I'm feeling generous, I'll kick in an extra $5 for the road department to fix the pothole down the road.

And it appears that you have absolutely no idea how portability works in this case.