Scrap school boards? this is an interesting article about education reform

[Teresa]

A modest proposal to fix the schools
by Matt Miller
First, Kill All the School Boards


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...LD:en%26sa%3DN

excerpt
What of school boards? In an ideal world, we would scrap them—especially in big cities, where most poor children live. That’s the impulse behind a growing drive for mayoral control of schools. New York and Boston have used mayoral authority to sustain what are among the most far-reaching reform agendas in the country, including more-rigorous curricula and a focus on better teaching and school leadership. Of course, the chances of eliminating school boards anytime soon are nil. But we can at least recast and limit their role.
In all of these efforts, we must understand one paradox: only by transcending local control can we create genuine autonomy for our schools. “If you visit schools in many other parts of the world,” Marc Tucker says, “you’re struck almost immediately … by a sense of autonomy on the part of the school staff and principal that you don’t find in the United States.” Research in 46 countries by Ludger Woessmann of the University of Munich has shown that setting clear external standards while granting real discretion to schools in how to meet them is the most effective way to run a system. We need to give schools one set of national expectations, free educators and parents to collaborate locally in whatever ways work, and get everything else out of the way.

[wrobert]

A modest proposal to fix the schools
by Matt Miller
First, Kill All the School Boards


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...LD:en%26sa%3DN

excerpt
What of school boards? In an ideal world, we would scrap them—especially in big cities, where most poor children live. That’s the impulse behind a growing drive for mayoral control of schools. New York and Boston have used mayoral authority to sustain what are among the most far-reaching reform agendas in the country, including more-rigorous curricula and a focus on better teaching and school leadership. Of course, the chances of eliminating school boards anytime soon are nil. But we can at least recast and limit their role.
In all of these efforts, we must understand one paradox: only by transcending local control can we create genuine autonomy for our schools. “If you visit schools in many other parts of the world,” Marc Tucker says, “you’re struck almost immediately … by a sense of autonomy on the part of the school staff and principal that you don’t find in the United States.” Research in 46 countries by Ludger Woessmann of the University of Munich has shown that setting clear external standards while granting real discretion to schools in how to meet them is the most effective way to run a system. We need to give schools one set of national expectations, free educators and parents to collaborate locally in whatever ways work, and get everything else out of the way.

Tootsie,

I had not commented on this because I have not been able to reconcile the European way of doing things with the way we do things in Florida.

First, if the voters wanted to abolish local school boards here, I would have no problem with that. I believe that there are a lot of elected officials whose jobs should be abolished. But the school board here is the local control. The State sets standards or minimums as to what to teach, the school board sets the policies for how this is done. Of course with FCAT and NCLB there seem to be a lot of standards, and a lot of things done to make sure that everyone is included in whatever instructional program is decided upon. But there do seem to be better ways of doing things, this is demonstrated by the school at Seaside and Liza Jackson Academy in Ft. Walton. I think that some sort of accountability has got to be enforced in the system. Getting rid of bad teachers is not impossible, and with the backing of the administration it can be done, but people bend over backwards to try to accomodate, even those that should be out of the system, that it borders on the absurd at times.

As for parents collaborating on things, do you have any ideas how to get them involved in their child's education? In nowal, they even offer to babysit the siblings and cook dinner and still can only get the parents to show up that would show up anyway.

[Teresa]

well, first of all our county is light years away from true reform, such as discussed in this article. it will happen in other progressive states first, as mentioned here as well.

but at least we can be aware of some of the thinking going on in other areas of our country (not necessarily europe).

getting parents involved will take big changes in the way education is done in general.

when obama talks about overhauling education, or implementing any of his policy ideas, he means that WE have to do the work. and regarding education - parents will have to be very much involved if education matters to them.

this is all very abstract / ideas for discussion. we are not there. not even close.

[BeachSiO2]

I have started to become more interested in school reform due to the successes shown by programs outside of the norm like Charter Schools and Montessori Schools. Although I don't have children in schools, I do have two young nephews that will be entering school soon and friends and family members that have children in those two types. Additionally, my community is working to create a Charter School like Seaside and I have been very impressed with that type of alternative school.

One issue in Swedish schools that I find to be interesting is their "perform to progress" strategy. If students aren't academically sufficient to continue on for higher education, they are moved into a vocational path. This begins between middle and high school and continues as they progress.

One final thought I have is that quality education has taken a hit by the "grading on a curve" phenomenon. It doesn't push the exceptional or even the mediocre student as hard as straight up and down testing would. I believe there is a need to make a college education worth something and grading on a curve doesn't do that in my opinion.

[Teresa]

I have started to become more interested in school reform due to the successes shown by programs outside of the norm like Charter Schools and Montessori Schools. Although I don't have children in schools, I do have two young nephews that will be entering school soon and friends and family members that have children in those two types. Additionally, my community is working to create a Charter School like Seaside and I have been very impressed with that type of alternative school.

One issue in Swedish schools that I find to be interesting is their "perform to progress" strategy. If students aren't academically sufficient to continue on for higher education, they are moved into a vocational path. This begins between middle and high school and continues as they progress.

One final thought I have is that quality education has taken a hit by the "grading on a curve" phenomenon. It doesn't push the exceptional or even the mediocre student as hard as straight up and down testing would. I believe there is a need to make a college education worth something and grading on a curve doesn't do that in my opinion.

absolutely beachS! there are so many alternative education programs in our own country that are extraordinary examples of what can be done in education, here and now.

you should check into the montessori philosophy. it is so amazingly amazing, I can't begin to describe it. because the philosophy has been around for many many years, and it was so well thought out based on maria montessori's (physician and teacher) work and study of children, that it is fully applicable and appropriate for every child, and continues to be relevant and define what education should be.

we are so blessed to have a small montessori school in santa rosa beach!

a teacher at seaside middle school tells me that their school is very much like montessori, and this the basis for its being such a wonderful school. I've heard a lot of good success stories of children completing that program, over the years (it's nothing new - its an alternative program that's been around here and has offered much to its children and families).

[rapunzel]

I think school boards can be excellent, and I think they can be terrible. I think the same goes for mayors. Unfortunately, we don't have a mayor, so this isn't an issue for us yet. A school board, headed by a good superintendent that holds principals accountable but gives them the freedom and respect to allow them to lead their schools effectively, is the best we can hope for in Walton County.

Unfortunately, there is a complete lack of information regarding almost all of the candidates running in county elections. We have no daily local media, and only one or two weekly papers that try to serve this community directly. (Trying to inform myself about the sheriff's race has been an exercise in futility. My only conclusion after reading this board to try to figure out which candidate might be best is that if a retired English teacher ran they'd get my vote because the first requirement should be good verbal and written communication skills.) We have low information voters because we don't have much information. Low information voters elect based on name recognition, and when name recognition is the criteria the results are almost always bad, the elected officials almost always easily swayed by the most insignificant public pressure, and controlled by power brokers. It's a shame we don't give people the option of voting 'no preference' in races they are not educated about.

We need to demand better information before elections, and we all need to be less passive and more involved if we want to make this county a better place to live and raise children.

There are two incumbents on the school board who have my support, and I would love to know how I could do more to help them. It sounds like money is an issue for some candidates. Walton GOP is also endorsed by someone I respect, so I look forward to learning more about his platform (although I think he needs to read the Republicans and Democrats chapter from Audacity of Hope before I could really throw my support behind him ).

Toots, perhaps we should plan some sort of get together -- sort of a salon type of thing with people of all political persuasions invited -- and invite some of these people to talk to us, and try to do some fundraising for those who seem to have good ideas for our schools. Low information voters and underfunded candidates will never bring about anything more than the status quo.

I worry about the huge number of children being taken out of our school system to be home schooled, but are left with little schooling and structure and without the tools do make their way in life if they want to do anything other than what their parents plan for them. I keep thinking about that poor 16 year old girl, being home schooled, who when asked about where she might go to college opened her mouth, but was silent as her mother answered for her, "our church doesn't believe in girls going to college -- she'll get married when she's 18 and have babies."

I worry about things like No Child Left Behind, too.

[scooterbug44]

One issue in Swedish schools that I find to be interesting is their "perform to progress" strategy. If students aren't academically sufficient to continue on for higher education, they are moved into a vocational path. This begins between middle and high school and continues as they progress.

One final thought I have is that quality education has taken a hit by the "grading on a curve" phenomenon. It doesn't push the exceptional or even the mediocre student as hard as straight up and down testing would. I believe there is a need to make a college education worth something and grading on a curve doesn't do that in my opinion.

I think this strategy is already present in many schools that offer advanced placement or gifted and talented programs. My schools started separating out the classes for Math starting in the 6th grade and English starting in the 9th grade. Once a kid is placed in that track, they can only go down (rare, but occasionally happened when someone decided they didn't want to work as hard and would rather get easy A's or B's as our grades weren't weighted), but it was very difficult to move up into the group.

IMO grading on a curve is stupid as it just encourages lower standards and not trying. Our teachers not only held us to higher standards on the percentage scale (a 93% in AP English was an A-), they refused to grade on the curve as they felt that it penalized the kids who did well.

Lower standards = lower results IMO.

[rapunzel]

absolutely beachS! there are so many alternative education programs in our own country that are extraordinary examples of what can be done in education, here and now.

you should check into the montessori philosophy. it is so amazingly amazing, I can't begin to describe it. because the philosophy has been around for many many years, and it was so well thought out based on maria montessori's (physician and teacher) work and study of children, that it is fully applicable and appropriate for every child, and continues to be relevant and define what education should be.

we are so blessed to have a small montessori school in santa rosa beach!

a teacher at seaside middle school tells me that their school is very much like montessori, and this the basis for its being such a wonderful school. I've heard a lot of good success stories of children completing that program, over the years (it's nothing new - its an alternative program that's been around here and has offered much to its children and families).

There is one thing that really bothers me about charter schools...and I will acknowledge that it is probably easier for me to say this because I do not have children -- they seem to me to work if the community throws its support and undivided attention into the school. Which is great, for that one school, in that one neighborhood where there are enough people that do not work full time and can dedicate themselves to being on the board and raising funds. But, I fear, this is where we lose sight of our civic duty. One school may save our child, and the children we know personally and therefore care about, but there are a lot of children out there in the community that suffer from this dis-involvement in the county school system by the very people who could do most to insure that children get an excellent education. The two education systems that result will make our county more divided, poorer in some areas and better preparing kids to go off and live somewhere else in others.

Charter schools are a stop gap solution, but they are not THE solution.

[scooterbug44]

I worry about the huge number of children being taken out of our school system to be home schooled, but are left with little schooling and structure and without the tools do make their way in life if they want to do anything other than what their parents plan for them. I keep thinking about that poor 16 year old girl, being home schooled, who when asked about where she might go to college opened her mouth, but was silent as her mother answered for her, "our church doesn't believe in girls going to college -- she'll get married when she's 18 and have babies."

[wrobert]

There are two incumbents on the school board who have my support, and I would love to know how I could do more to help them. It sounds like money is an issue for some candidates. Walton GOP is also endorsed by someone I respect, so I look forward to learning more about his platform (although I think he needs to read the Republicans and Democrats chapter from Audacity of Hope before I could really throw my support behind him ).

Well I went to the library to see if they have it, but it is closed today. If they do not then I will order a copy from Amazon tomorrow and give it a read.

[Teresa]

There is one thing that really bothers me about charter schools...and I will acknowledge that it is probably easier for me to say this because I do not have children -- they seem to me to work if the community throws its support and undivided attention into the school. Which is great, for that one school, in that one neighborhood where there are enough people that do not work full time and can dedicate themselves to being on the board and raising funds. But, I fear, this is where we lose sight of our civic duty. One school may save our child, and the children we know personally and therefore care about, but there are a lot of children out there in the community that suffer from this dis-involvement in the county school system by the very people who could do most to insure that children get an excellent education. The two education systems that result will make our county more divided, poorer in some areas and better preparing kids to go off and live somewhere else in others.

Charter schools are a stop gap solution, but they are not THE solution.

I don't know enough about how charter schools are run to argue this punzy. but I do know several families who have been involved in charter schools here and other places. It is my understanding that it is a public school but has its own kind of "charter" and oversight. It demands the participation of parents - so you must agree to be involved with your childrens' education. I think this is excellent. too bad you must have a charter school to demand this. parents must agree to all of the rules and regs and standards, etc., set forth in the charter. they actually sign a contract.

I don't know anything about how the funding works, except the charter school may go forward with annual fundraisers in order to fund programs and salaries as set forth in their charter. another excellent thing, IMO.

I fail to see how a charter or other alternative school takes away from other schools in the community. I believe families need a variety of choices.

I do know that several years ago Pt Washington and area parents worked very hard to have Bay Elementary (middle school then i think) turned into a community charter school. the school board did not like the idea and would not allow it to go forward. a lot of families working very hard, who are very involved in their childrens education, had put forth many long hours of work in that project to have it shot down. it was a real disappointment for our area. I believe a principal lost her job over it as well.

I also know that children and families have enjoyed being part of Seaside Neighborhood School - its a small school and certainly not for everyone. It is considered "alternative". and a wonderful educational environment, supported by Seaside and many individuals and businesses in our community.

so, I do not see that charter and other alternative schools take away from our public schools. I do think families should have choices. Our children have different learning styles and being able to choose a small alternative school for certain children (and families) is wonderful to be able to do. I've seen families with children in both public and private (right here in sowal) because their children have different learning styles and needs. how great is that?

the homeschooling trend bothers me a lot too for some reason. I'm very afraid of what these children are being "taught" in their own homes. but I also know some wonderful families who do homeschooling, and do it well.

none of the above is perfect, that's for sure. I don't propose to scrap the school board, although I do wonder what the hail they are there for sometimes, and why the hail they need to be elected. sounds really suspicious to me. politicians running our schools? maybe we need to take a good look at this sooner rather than later. I mean, we do have professional education administrators hired to run schools, make decisions, etc.

I have my homework cut out. got a lot to learn in the next few years as I make decisions about the placement of my child. I will be interviewing some folks over the next several months...

[rapunzel]

When I said I think it takes away from other schools, I meant that by focusing on one school that is not inclusive or expansive, the involved parents only improve the school their child attends.

I applaud the parents who get involved at Seaside, please do not misunderstand me. I think it is fantastic that they get so involved, that they raise funds, and that they see to it that their children get an excellent education. They are the rare exception, and I don't mean to detract from any of the fabulous things they do.

In this country, though, more than 70% of mothers of school age children work. In most families, that prevents the parents from being as they should and might like to be. When we have charter schools that require parental involvement, we see the involved parents being concentrated in one or two schools, and the children with uninvolved parents end up in a school together. One school gets better and better, the other school suffers.

In New Orleans, there was one public charter school uptown called Lusher. I volunteered at a museum, and the first few school groups I took on a tour broke my heart. Third graders would struggle to read the simplest words. At first, I was always careful to stand in front of the informational cards next to the paintings so I could ask questions and discuss things before they saw the artist or date. I got out of that habit. I gave a tour to some first graders in the fall, and when I got to my first painting I did my spiel, "This is a road in New Orleans that I know you all travel all the time. Does anyone recognize it?"

One little girl all but rolled her eyes, pointed to the card, and said, "It's Magazine Street."

The difference was so pronounced I was blown away. In New Orleans, the kids of parents who can be involved send their kids to a charter school, the parents who are well off but busy send the kids to private school, and the rest go to the public schools. No one pays much attention to the state of the schools. No one demands accountability of the school board. No one demands quality public school open to everyone. It leads to a permanent dependent underclass.

I'm not comparing Walton County to New Orleans. I know there is no comparison. I'm not passing judgment, because I know if I had a child I might wish they could go to school with people of different racial and socio-economic backgrounds, but if that wasn't an excellent place to get and education I'd be doing everything I could to get my child into the charter school.

But, IMO, the community would be better off if all the schools were more or less equal in the education they offered. If all children got the same education, all the energy going into a charter school would instead be focused on the school system, and then every child would have a decent shot at becoming a successful adult, not limited by the circumstances into which they were born. Kumbaya....kum-bay-a....

I think I'm speaking in generalities and the community as a whole, while you are thinking about a child entering school next year.

And to clarify my remarks about home schooling, I know that 90% of the children are getting a fantastic education from parents with the best intentions. It's the few and far between children that are not getting much formal instruction year after year, that aren't being socialized, or are not learning about all their opportunities after high school that I worry so much about. It doesn't seem to me that there is any oversight of home schoolers.

[scooterbug44]

70% of the mothers work? Maybe the FATHERS could do something then! Takes 2 to make 'em, 'cuz it takes 2 to raise them!

IMO it is a matter of priorities. Both my parents worked full time and managed to raise 2 kids who got good grades and were involved in a variety of sports and extracurricular activities (so many that I had to edit to only submit one page w/ my college applications).

They obviously weren't available for most activities during the workday (unless we had to come home sick), but they never missed a concert, important game, or parent/teacher conference. They knew my teachers, they knew my classes, they were involved in my schooling, and there were consequences for bad grades that resulted from not turning in homework or paying attention in class.

I went to a public school in a working class neighborhood and I believe I got a comparable or better education than many of my peers in private schools because of the level of parental involvement and discipline.

IMO&E apathetic and absentee parents are the reason kids don't get an education, not economic class, school funding, ethnicity, or sadly natural ability.

[Teresa]

IMO&E apathetic and absentee parents are the reason kids don't get an education, not economic class, school funding, ethnicity, or sadly natural ability.

punzy and scoot - you both have really good points. and it just shows how education is very complicated and especially in each kind of city or area.

and yes scooterbug - I believe the parents must be supportive in their childrens' education, regardless of what kind of education setting they are in - and this means getting the kid to school, caring about his performance, knowing his teachers, and providing a range of experiences outside school.

we are very fortunate in walton county - our public schools are excellent. parents I know are almost always pleased with teachers, school experience, etc. and we're blessed to have Bay Elem right in our neighborhood - it's a community school that has been very popular among families for a very long time!

and punzy - I think you are talking about what you've seen in NO. not necessarily problems here - yet. though we did hear from a safety and attendance officer at a recent parent education meeting - our schools have children who don't attend for weeks at a time because parents don't want to get up and get them ready. the officer visits the homes to find the child at home with parents in bed or not there at all. you can imagine all the reasons for this kind of situation. its very sad. and its right here.

I am happy to have at least a few choices in education program and setting in sowal. and thrilled to know another middle school is coming to Pt Washington - a neighborhood that will become a kind of education center. you could not ask for a more beautiful and natural environment, surrounded by families who are settled here long term.

we have been in a private school for 4 years - 95% of those parents never step foot on school ground unless mandatory (conference), or unless its a major holiday event. I've known a lot of non-working mothers who say: I've got a life, so when my kid is in school I need my time to do what I need to do. I don't have time to volunteer at the school. I pay tuition and they should have enough staff. sorry, I'm late for yoga! sorry, can't help, I've got a really important tennis lesson today! my personal trainer is waiting for me... end of story. there are always 3-5 moms (and sometimes a dad) available to help with special projects, events, etc. and I think that is sad.

[Smiling JOe]

If another news journalists incorrectly uses the word, "ironically," meaning coincidentally, I may throw up in my mouth. Can someone please educate the future journalists? They are the only people I ever hear misusing the word, and they do it frequently.

[scooterbug44]

we have been in a private school for 4 years - 95% of those parents never step foot on school ground unless mandatory (conference), or unless its a major holiday event. I've known a lot of non-working mothers who say: I've got a life, so when my kid is in school I need my time to do what I need to do. I don't have time to volunteer at the school. I pay tuition and they should have enough staff. sorry, I'm late for yoga! sorry, can't help, I've got a really important tennis lesson today! my personal trainer is waiting for me... end of story. there are always 3-5 moms (and sometimes a dad) available to help with special projects, events, etc. and I think that is sad.

I always wonder why people like that become parents!

Neglect doesn't just happen in poor households!

[Smiling JOe]

I always wonder why people like that become parents!

Becoming a parent requires no thinking. NOT becoming a parent, requires thinking.

[scooterbug44]

Too true!

[SGB]

When I said I think it takes away from other schools, I meant that by focusing on one school that is not inclusive or expansive, the involved parents only improve the school their child attends.

I applaud the parents who get involved at Seaside, please do not misunderstand me. I think it is fantastic that they get so involved, that they raise funds, and that they see to it that their children get an excellent education. They are the rare exception, and I don't mean to detract from any of the fabulous things they do.

In this country, though, more than 70% of mothers of school age children work. In most families, that prevents the parents from being as they should and might like to be. When we have charter schools that require parental involvement, we see the involved parents being concentrated in one or two schools, and the children with uninvolved parents end up in a school together. One school gets better and better, the other school suffers.

I totally understand your point, and agree to a certain extent, but let me say that I don't think that is necessarily true here. My kids go to Seaside and there are many parents that are very involved, and many that aren't. It does take a lot more effort on the part of some to keep the great programs as Seaside going (the teachers are paid for by the county, but the building, computers and any other equipment or extras need to be paid by the school. The Seaside Half Marathon and Via Colori are our 2 major fund raisers. BUT, I don't think that Emerald Coast Middle School has suffered as a result. Every year ECMS gets better and better. There are a lot of very involved parents there as well. Thankfully this results in 2 great options for our middle schoolers. As someone said, different environments fit different kids and we are lucky enough to have two choices here. I've seen kids switch from one to the other when the fit wasn't right and what they needed was at the other school.

I am now worrying about high school.... I have seen many improvements in the high school since it opened. Much of that is due to involved parents and parents that have brought their kids back to the high school here from either Niceville or Arnold. Again - we do have choices. The collegiate high school is a great option for some and the dual enrollment program that we have access to seems to be wonderful. SWHS still needs a lot of improvement, but I'm really hoping that SWHS can continue to improve, and when augmented with the virtual school and OWC, will provide a great foundation for a college education.

[Teresa]

I always wonder why people like that become parents!

Neglect doesn't just happen in poor households!

I know.

but in most of these cases, the parents are good parents and have plenty of time to make sure their children participate in every recreational sport known to man outside of school hours. so, they are there for their kids. its just an ingrained attitude about how school and teachers should do their jobs - it's not my job - kind of mentality.

I was thinking of punzy's experience in new orleans. my niece has been in private schools there since preschool - she's in fifith grade now. it was my understanding that there is absolutely no other choice given the rock bottom state of education in that city - and has been the case for dozens of years. paying private tuition is part of life just like paying for electricity or a car or mortgage. this is an example of schools gone very wrong. and probably the case in many cities across the US.

[scooterbug44]

In my experience parents too busy to take an interest in their kids schooling show the same interest level in other aspects of their kids lives. Yes, the kids may get to participate in a lot of activities and attend many camps - because those activities are the equivalent of a babysitter for some parents.

The way I read Punzy's post was that rather than fix the public schools for everyone, people opt for charter schools that just benefit their kids. Good for the kids at the charter school, bad for the rest.

[30A Skunkape]

Can somebody prodcue the name of a school board where people seem satisfied with their performance? It seems to me that urban boards are ripe with graft and rural ones are the domain of petty squabbling. I am sure there must be a few good ones out there.

[rapunzel]

70% of the mothers work? Maybe the FATHERS could do something then! Takes 2 to make 'em, 'cuz it takes 2 to raise them!

IMO it is a matter of priorities. Both my parents worked full time and managed to raise 2 kids who got good grades and were involved in a variety of sports and extracurricular activities (so many that I had to edit to only submit one page w/ my college applications).

They obviously weren't available for most activities during the workday (unless we had to come home sick), but they never missed a concert, important game, or parent/teacher conference. They knew my teachers, they knew my classes, they were involved in my schooling, and there were consequences for bad grades that resulted from not turning in homework or paying attention in class.

I went to a public school in a working class neighborhood and I believe I got a comparable or better education than many of my peers in private schools because of the level of parental involvement and discipline.

IMO&E apathetic and absentee parents are the reason kids don't get an education, not economic class, school funding, ethnicity, or sadly natural ability.

Me, too...on all of the above.

I think you're missing my point. Obviously, not everyone is going to be able to be totally committed to holding school boards/principals/teachers accountable. Sadly, many parents...even those with the time...just don't want to get involved for one reason or the other. And some who don't have the time find a way to get involved anyway.

My point was that charter schools limit the scope of the community that the involved minority impacts. You end up eventually with two (if not five or six) community standards of education. Which, in my lib-nut world view, is wrong. I get that most people feel very differently about the role of schools in our community.

And I apologize about the mothers working comment. I applaud stay at home fathers, or fathers that get deeply involved in their childrens' school. I realize that is super common.

Good gosh, an attack of political correctness for saying the community should treat every child the same. Liberals.

[peapod1980]

I have mixed feelings about school boards. From what I've seen, school board elections are often the adult equivalent of student council elections, i.e., school popularity contests. But, I do like the idea of people on the school's "front line," so to speak, having a say in how things are done. Tough call.

What bothers me more than the school board issue is what seems a lack of parental and community commitment to our country's public school system. I encounter people every day who seem to assume that private is better just because. I live in a neighborhood where the neighborhood school is literally that; we don't have bus service because our district is mapped in a way that we are all within walking distance of the school. Interestingly, we have a Catholic school also within walking distance of us. I know people who are NOT Catholic who are sending their kids to that school. Why? The public school is excellent, parental involvement is high, and the Catholic school doesn't even have the resources to meet the needs of kids who need things like speech therapy or special education. Susie Buffett, daughter of Warren, started the Sherwood Foundation in Omaha, where she and all the Buffett siblings grew up going to public school. The foundation is committed to public education, human services and social justice. She says, "When I was growing up, my mother worked tirelessly to improve the public schools. My father has always said if there was one new amendment to the Constitution, it should be that every student in the country be required to attend public schools because then they would be good. I grew up with that mentality embedded in my brain." I'm all for having choices and less government involvement in my life in general, but this is food for thought.

[Smiling JOe]

Now you guys have me wondering about WaltonGOP running for the School Board. He promised his son to look into changing the food menu at the schools, but he wasn't sure how to tell if food was freezer burned. lol. Just yanking your chain, WGOP.

[Smiling JOe]

Punzy, I agree that all students should be given the same chances. However, I don't think that they are all equal and have the ability to learn the same things. I know many highly intelligent kids who slacked their way through the school systems, both private and public, because most school systems don't have the ability to teach above the dumbest kids. Give two kids a Crayon and a piece of paper, and chances are that one will draw and the other will attempt to eat the Crayon. Not all kids are equal, and those who have the ability and desire to learn should be challenged.

[Jdarg]

Everyone can watch the local school board in action tonight at 5 pm, SWHS Media Center.

[scooterbug44]

Give two kids a Crayon and a piece of paper, and chances are that one will draw and the other will attempt to eat the Crayon. Not all kids are equal, and those who have the ability and desire to learn should be challenged.

I just spit out my coffee!

You can still challenge kids in a public school by having gifted & talented programs and splitting up the classes by ability - typically just in math & english, but not until late middle/early high school.

The smaller the class size and the greater the leeway in teaching methods, the easier it is to have varying ability levels in a classroom. This is why IMO all of the attempts at standardization/FCATs are counterproductive.

My teachers would try to have us do as many group projects and activities as possible, as it would not only keep us from getting bored, it allowed the kids w/ different strengths to shine and kept the kids who were fast at reading/tests from getting too cocky.

[peapod1980]

SJ, I can't say what the percentage is, but most public schools do have ways of teaching "above the dumbest kids." Our school has a gifted program that provides enrichment activities for even the younger kids. And, like scooter says, the middle school kids are "tracked" in their classes to meet the needs of both the average and above average students. There are also lots of teachers out there who are willing to provide extra or higher-level work when parents request it.

[Here4Good]

Concerning election/candidate info:

What do you guys think the chances are of being able to organize a local chapter of the League of Women Voters? I know that in places I have lived/voted before, they are the ones who work to get non-partisan information in front of the voters.

[wrobert]

Concerning election/candidate info:

What do you guys think the chances are of being able to organize a local chapter of the League of Women Voters? I know that in places I have lived/voted before, they are the ones who work to get non-partisan information in front of the voters.

I think there is a chapter in Okaloosa County. You may start there for information. I think it would be a great idea. What few organizations that try to educate voters now have their own agendas. It would be nice to see a true non-partisan organization come forward that just wants to put out information without an agenda.

[Here4Good]

I think there is a chapter in Okaloosa County. You may start there for information. I think it would be a great idea. What few organizations that try to educate voters now have their own agendas. It would be nice to see a true non-partisan organization come forward that just wants to put out information without an agenda.

I checked, the closest chapter is the Pensacola Bay area.

Maybe Walton/Okaloosa could get together to support a chapter.

I'd challenge Punzy to organize it, but it would break her heart to not be able to work for Obama's campaign!

[Smiling JOe]

SJ, I can't say what the percentage is, but most public schools do have ways of teaching "above the dumbest kids." Our school has a gifted program that provides enrichment activities for even the younger kids. And, like scooter says, the middle school kids are "tracked" in their classes to meet the needs of both the average and above average students. There are also lots of teachers out there who are willing to provide extra or higher-level work when parents request it.

What I am really trying to say is that while I think that everyone should be given an equal opportunity to learn, I don't think that each child will learn equally. Saying that all schools should be the same doesn't fit nicely into the way that people use the given tools.

[peapod1980]

What I am really trying to say is that while I think that everyone should be given an equal opportunity to learn, I don't think that each child will learn equally. Saying that all schools should be the same doesn't fit nicely into the way that people use the given tools.

I'm lost--was that said somewhere in this thread? I'm not being a smart aleck, I'm sincerely asking, because I don't remember reading it.

[Jdarg]

I'm lost--was that said somewhere in this thread? I'm not being a smart aleck, I'm sincerely asking, because I don't remember reading it.

Pea, I think there is sometimes a misunderstanding of what public schools truly have to offer as far as different programs for different kids, and all within the same school. A public school system has the money and resources to provide options for lots of different learners. The key is identifying the kids that need different programs, especially if the parents aren't participating.

[rapunzel]

I'm lost--was that said somewhere in this thread? I'm not being a smart aleck, I'm sincerely asking, because I don't remember reading it.

I may have said it. What I meant is that every child should have the same set of options available to them. The education should be flexible enough to help each child make the most of their god-given abilities, whatever they might be. Sometimes, very intelligent children are born to very dumb or lazy or ill or addicted people. Sometimes, they are born to children. They need boot straps they can use to pull themselves up.

If you give ten people the same set of tools and materials and say, build a treehouse, you're going to get ten different treehouses -- some great, some not so great. If you give two people a deluxe set of tools and materials, and 8 people some scrap lumber, nails, and a hammer, you may get two decent treehouses, but you may have given the budding architectural genius the scraps and lost out on the most fabulous treehouse imaginable. The kid loses, but so does the community.

I love the League of Women Voters idea. I'm up for it.

[Jdarg]

I may have said it. What I meant is that every child should have the same set of options available to them. The education should be flexible enough to help each child make the most of their god-given abilities, whatever they might be. Sometimes, very intelligent children are born to very dumb or lazy or ill or addicted people. Sometimes, they are born to children. They need boot straps they can use to pull themselves up.

If you give ten people the same set of tools and materials and say, build a treehouse, you're going to get ten different treehouses -- some great, some not so great. If you give two people a deluxe set of tools and materials, and 8 people some scrap lumber, nails, and a hammer, you may get two decent treehouses, but you may have given the budding architectural genius the scraps and lost out on the most fabulous treehouse imaginable. The kid loses, but so does the community.

I love the League of Women Voters idea. I'm up for it.

It took me a while to understand this (OK- most of Will's elementary school yearsl) before it suddenly hit me like a brick. Strong schools, strong communities, and strong children are all interwoven. Yes, of course I want my kids in great schools, and making the schools great for all kids is the icing on top for MY kids. It's a win-win, both on a personal level AND a community level.

Now, I understand that our schools here are a bit unique- our area is small, and only recently did we have enough students to even have more than a couple of schools. We don't have crime issues. Therefore, instead of taking on a huge urban school system, we just need to start participating in our little system. It's not broken- it is growing and changing, and will grow and change successfully depending on parental and community involvement. There is nothing to bring us down here- we can only improve, and improve on schools that are good to begin with!!

[Teresa]

What I am really trying to say is that while I think that everyone should be given an equal opportunity to learn, I don't think that each child will learn equally. Saying that all schools should be the same doesn't fit nicely into the way that people use the given tools.

SJ - I hear you and agree 100%. it is not really right to think that all children will flourish in public education, and not all children will flourish in alternative education. but that does not mean that public education resources should be directed away from public education!!! not at all! if only public education offered more than one kind of program - that program just doesn't fit all. not by far.

if a family chooses public ed - wonderful. if a family chooses an alternative route - great. there are many reasons for these choices, and hopefully the child and his well being is the number one consideration.

pea - catholic schools have been around for ages and ages - as you know. I've only heard the best things about them from those who attended and then went on to breeze through college. daddy-o, non-catholic, being one. my parents could not afford to send 4 children to catholic school so we all went to public school, and with pretty good/not great experiences. my mom went to catholic school during the strict nun days - she can't say enough about her outstanding school experiences, even with those mean old sisters!(my mom shoulda been one). my catholic school friends tell me that their school offered not only superior education, but also superior drugs... true story. so, I realize that no place is ideal.

having a choice in educational environments and philosophies is very important for children and families, imo. what we've learned and experienced in montessori as a family is invaluable to our lives in general. we're very blessed and thankful to know it and bring it into our family life. some teachers use montessori techniques in their public school classes. but overall, montessori is mostly offered in private schools (some charter and public schools are montessori-based however). I feel maria montessori would not approve of her life-long work developing phil/curriculum - being offered to the families who can afford it, rather than offering it to all families who embrace such education. her work was with poor children in rome, many of the children considered "uneducable" - and she was very successful in teaching these children to develop their own skills set by their own pace. not only did these children score above average.. each was individually allowed to flourish in the ways he/she was meant to. and she went on to develop her work over many, many years. she was also italy's first woman physician, championed women's rights, and wrote and lectured about her established training programs, and the guiding principle of "education for peace". a woman ahead of her time if there ever was one, imo.


no child left behind... I am very curious about what teachers think of this policy.

the only thing I've heard about our public schools that is a negative is that sometimes children who are need of certain special support services have a hard time getting those services. A child development friend of mine is often hired by parents to help get through all the hoops it takes to have the proper evaluatons, identify the services needed, and have them implemented. this takes a lot of time (the entire school year in some cases) for some young children who need services immediately. it seems our public system is designed to serve children who fall in the middle. those children needing support, or who fall below or well above average intelligent or learning levels may not be getting what they need. although there are very few truly gifted children (though most families don't understand this since all their children are "gifted" - a truly overused term in education and society) - I am hopeful that really bright children are offered advanced and alternative coursework/study - surely!

at least public schools offer support services for many different kinds of children - a real plus! many private schools do not. however, some private schools offer extraordinary support via professionals from our community for students in many ways - such as at our school.

[scooterbug44]

I think everyone should have to be educated by the public school system. There is absolutely no reason why there cannot be variety and all of the available services for every need.

We all already pay for the public school system and as long as people can "opt out" and send their kids somewhere else it will not be a priority to provide a decent education for everyone.

[Mango]

the only thing I've heard about our public schools that is a negative is that the children who are need of certain special services have a hard time getting those services. A child development friend of mine is often hired by parents to help get through all the hoops it takes to have the proper evaluatons, identify the services needed, and have them implemented. this takes a lot of time (the entire school year in some cases) for some young children who need services immediately. it seems our public system is designed to serve children who fall in the middle. those children needing support, or who fall below or well above average intelligent or learning levels may not be getting what they need. although there are very few truly gifted children (though most families don't understand this since all their children are "gifted" - a truly overused label).

This is a huge issue, especially for children on the spectrum because the sooner a child gets the services they need like speech and socialization skills, they will require less services later. This is one of the reasons I like Obama's 0-5 program and he realizes the support services needed by parents of children with autism. (he uses the word autism, but some use Spectrum now) It shouldn't take a year for a child at 2+ to be evaluated or a parent to fight for what they think is best for their child. This is a nationwide problem, not limited to Sowal. Parents shouldn't have to leave their jobs to fill out mountains of paperwork and pay for evaluations with child psychologists.


Zero to Five Plan: Obama's comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, Obama's plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.

Then I've seen the advanced students suffer as well with boredom, even some enrichment programs are not enough to keep some kids stimulated and skipping grades isn't always the solution.

[Teresa]

This is a huge issue, especially for children on the spectrum because the sooner a child gets the services they need like speech and socialization skills, they will require less services later. This is one of the reasons I like Obama's 0-5 program and he realizes the support services needed by parents of children with autism. (he uses the word autism, but some use Spectrum now) It shouldn't take a year for a child at 2+ to be evaluated or a parent to fight for what they think is best for their child. This is a nationwide problem, not limited to Sowal. Parents shouldn't have to leave their jobs to fill out mountains of paperwork and pay for evaluations with child psychologists.


Zero to Five Plan: Obama's comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, Obama's plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.

Then I've seen the advanced students suffer as well with boredom, even some enrichment programs are not enough to keep some kids stimulated and skipping grades isn't always the solution.

yes, I like everything in obama's position on education, including the early education - we have all known the value of early educatoin for many many years - nothing at all new.

I know children in kindergarten and first grade here whose parents cannot get the services they know are needed for their children. don't know why there is such a problem there. the school is pretty small. I've heard from a few people directly, and from a friend who works as a consultant on behalf of parents of mostly younger students, to push through the crap and get evaluations and services needed. I think the teachers are taking their time getting to know these kids and not rushing to any evaluations or placements, which is probably a good thing in some cases. I don't think there is any neglect here. but, many of these kids have obvious learning problems.

[Teresa]

I think everyone should have to be educated by the public school system. There is absolutely no reason why there cannot be variety and all of the available services for every need.

We all already pay for the public school system and as long as people can "opt out" and send their kids somewhere else it will not be a priority to provide a decent education for everyone.

you are speaking in terms of a completely overhauled education system, or an ideal one, I am hoping.

pleae do not tell me that I have to put my son in a public school. I would gladly do so here, but elsewhere would be another story entirely.

[peapod1980]

What I meant is that every child should have the same set of options available to them. The education should be flexible enough to help each child make the most of their god-given abilities, whatever they might be.

I agree with this 100%, and it's what I understood you to say. I may be misunderstanding SJ, but it sounds like he believes that a public school education is a specific type of education and is one that can't cater to the individual needs of students. That's a pretty broad brush with which to paint. (Though I do enjoy your artwork, SJ. )

[Teresa]

I agree with this 100%, and it's what I understood you to say. I may be misunderstanding SJ, but it sounds like he believes that a public school education is a specific type of education and is one that can't cater to the individual needs of students. That's a pretty broad brush with which to paint. (Though I do enjoy your artwork, SJ. )

I agree with punzy, but I also think it is a statement about an "ideal" public school system. I wish we could offer every child the same options in education, right now. today.

and

I agree with SJ - and I'll take it further by saying that I believe each child and each family has its set of learning/education/philosophy needs. and its nice to have some choice in education based on those needs. in fact, it is absolutely essential. if only every family were fortunate enough to choose between this school or that school, between this philosophy and that one, between language immersion and a charter school, between public school class down the street and montessori class down the other street.

as I mentioned earlier, some of our families use all of the above at the same time, or skip around to learn about each one, or have one kid in montessori and one kid at Butler... I say good for them.

[scooterbug44]

please do not tell me that I have to put my son in a public school. I would gladly do so here, but elsewhere would be another story entirely.

And that sentiment right there is why everyone should have to go to public school. It just upped the stakes!

I completely understand though - my cousins and I lived 10-15 minutes away from each other and we all went to public schools. Their school had metal detectors etc. even though they lived in a much nicer neighborhood - because they went to school w/ city kids and I went to school w/ farm kids.

Noone went to the private school for a good education - that's where they sent the kids who got kicked out of public school!

[supermom262]

I could probably address all the points made by everyone. Many things have been said that are valid points.

My daughter attended a public elementary school in Ann Arbor (along with Paula's daughters) before we decided to move down here.

Most of the parents worked full-time but there were several who did not. I worked full-time and volunteered when I could. There were key parents who didn't work full-time that did most of the organizing but on the whole, parents were involved in the school in some aspect.

Since moving here, I have had my kids educated in public, Montessori, a public charter school and have home-schooled as well. My kids have different needs, so I have utilized what seemed best for them at the time.

Regardless of the school or setting, I have been amazed (to use Tootsie's words!) at the parental involvement in South Walton. I'll write more later; have to go pick up the kids! ;)

[Teresa]

I could probably address all the points made by everyone. Many things have been said that are valid points.

My daughter attended a public elementary school in Ann Arbor (along with Paula's daughters) before we decided to move down here.

Most of the parents worked full-time but there were several who did not. I worked full-time and volunteered when I could. There were key parents who didn't work full-time that did most of the organizing but on the whole, parents were involved in the school in some aspect.

Since moving here, I have had my kids educated in public, Montessori, a public charter school and have home-schooled as well. My kids have different needs, so I have utilized what seemed best for them at the time.

Regardless of the school or setting, I have been amazed (to use Tootsie's words!) at the parental involvement in South Walton. I'll write more later; have to go pick up the kids! ;)

supermom, I was hoping you would chime in. I was thinking of you and a few other families who have experienced a range of education settings in sowal.. excellent that you have these choices. many of our children just do not fit into one classroom environment or the other. it makes me happy to know that we have choices at all here. finding the right fit for your child (and your family) takes work! its not easy.

[Teresa]

And that sentiment right there is why everyone should have to go to public school. It just upped the stakes!

I completely understand though - my cousins and I lived 10-15 minutes away from each other and we all went to public schools. Their school had metal detectors etc. even though they lived in a much nicer neighborhood - because they went to school w/ city kids and I went to school w/ farm kids.

Noone went to the private school for a good education - that's where they sent the kids who got kicked out of public school!

scooter - you are funny.

I should clarify - I would gladly send my kid to any school in Walton County. my point is, we've got fine public schools here. not so in lots of places, as you know. I will not be sending my child to any school where it is lacking in highly qualified teachers, security/safety, adequate facility and funding, materials/books/supplies, etc. it is just not going to happen. I will homeschool first - and that is certainly not something I ever want to have to do. I believe my child deserves an education in a setting with children around his age level, with a broad array of social and other experiences.

at this point we don't know if public school will be the way to go for us. I'm pretty sure we'll get to the point to where it is our only option, around middle school. maybe before. so, we'll join the system at some point for sure. and when we do - it will be an exciting adventure and we will expect wonderful learning opportunities, and lend our support to teachers and staff! just as we have and will with any other school.

btw, can't wait for obama to become our president! this discussion could become very interesting in real life. free and appropriate education for every child... world class education through college... etc. there are lots of ways to accomplish these goals. and in reality, an overhauled education system will be required, and that system will not look anything like it does today

[Smiling JOe]

...
My point was that charter schools limit the scope of the community that the involved minority impacts. You end up eventually with two (if not five or six) community standards of education. Which, in my lib-nut world view, is wrong. I get that most people feel very differently about the role of schools in our community.
...

What I am really trying to say is that while I think that everyone should be given an equal opportunity to learn, I don't think that each child will learn equally. Saying that all schools should be the same doesn't fit nicely into the way that people use the given tools.

I'm lost--was that said somewhere in this thread? I'm not being a smart aleck, I'm sincerely asking, because I don't remember reading it.

I may have said it. What I meant is that every child should have the same set of options available to them. The education should be flexible enough to help each child make the most of their god-given abilities, whatever they might be. Sometimes, very intelligent children are born to very dumb or lazy or ill or addicted people. Sometimes, they are born to children. They need boot straps they can use to pull themselves up.

If you give ten people the same set of tools and materials and say, build a treehouse, you're going to get ten different treehouses -- some great, some not so great. If you give two people a deluxe set of tools and materials, and 8 people some scrap lumber, nails, and a hammer, you may get two decent treehouses, but you may have given the budding architectural genius the scraps and lost out on the most fabulous treehouse imaginable. The kid loses, but so does the community.

I love the League of Women Voters idea. I'm up for it.

I agree with this 100%, and it's what I understood you to say. I may be misunderstanding SJ, but it sounds like he believes that a public school education is a specific type of education and is one that can't cater to the individual needs of students. That's a pretty broad brush with which to paint. (Though I do enjoy your artwork, SJ. )

Sorry to stir confusion. Wasn't trying to do so. Yes, I was responding to Punzy's comment quoted above.

I disagree with the bold paragraph, above. Kids will learn either way, using scraps or new supplies. In both examples, kids will show their creativity given whatever tools they are given. To say that the community loses is just not an accurate statement, in my opinion. That is like saying that a person who drives a new Ferrari to the office is better equipped to get to work than one who drives a used Honda, which had been crashed and rebuilt using used parts.

I don't think that playing with wooden blocks as a child makes one too different than playing with actual model buildings and model cars. If anything, I'd put my money on the kid who had just the blocks, because their imagination has to work harder.

[scooterbug44]

I disagree with the bold paragraph, above. Kids will learn either way, using scraps or new supplies. In both examples, kids will show their creativity given whatever tools they are given. To say that the community loses is just not an accurate statement, in my opinion. That is like saying that a person who drives a new Ferrari to the office is better equipped to get to work than one who drives a used Honda, which had been crashed and rebuilt using used parts.

I don't think that playing with wooden blocks as a child makes one too different than playing with actual model buildings and model cars. If anything, I'd put my money on the kid who had just the blocks, because their imagination has to work harder.

The problem w/ those examples is that it isn't a choice between a Ferrari and a used Honda - it's a choice between a Ferrari and a car w/ flat tires and no gas.

And it isn't a choice between models or blocks - realistically one kid gets blocks and the other one gets dead cockroaches.

Differing learning styles and ideal environments for creativity are important, but have to come into play after the kid has food in its stomach and basic reading, math, and communication skills.