Public meeting access

[wrobert]

I found this situation to be more disturbing than anything. I attend more governmental meetings than your average person and I have never came across a situation such as this is the past.


From WZEP news.

Some Who Attended the TDC Meeting Were Locked Out

As the Walton County TDC held a public workshop to take input on the Wayfinder sign program Wednesday evening, participants were asked to register their names at the door. Two TDC staff members stood at the door and told those entering they needed to sign in. Later, as the room filled, the doors were locked from outside access and a number of people were not allowed into the meeting room. Even after the crown thinned, the doors remained locked from the outside. Some attendees outside the meeting room complained about not being given access and about being told they must sign in. Both of these are possible violations of the Sunshine Law.

Florida has a broad set of laws governing the public's access to government meetings. This includes, government meetings with elected officials as well as most meetings of committees and boards doing business for a government or groups and organizations who make decisions and recommendations instead of a government body. A private company or group working to operate a public hospital or park facility would fall under the Sunshine Laws. The laws also govern the rights of the public to request records and to have access to their government.

Section 286.011, F.S., requires that meetings of public boards or commissions be "open
to the public at all times." For meetings where a large turnout of the public is expected, public boards and commissions should take reasonable steps to ensure that the facilities where the meeting will be held will accommodate the anticipated turnout. Meetings held at a facility which can accommodate only a small number of the public attending, when a large public turnout can
reasonably be expected, may violate the public access requirement by unreasonably restricting access to the meeting.

According to the First Amendment Foundation, there are four (4) simple requirements:
1. Meetings of boards or commissions must be open to the public.
2. Reasonable notice of such meetings must be given.
3. Minutes of meetings must be taken.
4. Venue must be accessible.

The FAF says a public agency cannot hold a meeting at any facility which discriminates based on age, race, etc., nor can a public agency unreasonably restrict public access. It must hold meetings in an accessible facility of sufficient size so as to accommodate the anticipated turnout.

Accessibility includes not having to register your attendance with the government. As this reporter entered the meeting area, two TDC staff members were at the door. One told me she needed me to sign in to attend the meeting. When told that I did not wish to register my name, she said it was for her minutes record. When told that registering a name was not a requirement, the employee grimaced as I passed. Checking with other attendees, apparently all who entered during the first part of the meeting were told they must sign in.

As the meeting progressed most seats were filled and some people were standing in the back of the room. Apparently the door outside the small lobby was locked and people outside reported being told they could not enter. It is unconfirmed who locked the exterior door, but several people said it was a TDC Board member. No fire marshal was visible and no announcement was made indicating there was a problem with not enough room or that the room was at capacity.

Attendees standing in the outside parking lot said they were denied access to the meeting due to the door being locked. This reporter attempted to open the door and gain reentry but found it locked. Eventually a TDC staff person answered a knock and asked if the people outside the door wanted in. I indicated the door needs to stay open and the staff person said her director said it should be closed. I asked the staff person if I wanted in later, and knocked, would the door be opened. She would not agree that it would. After asking the question repeatedly, a second staff person said the door would be opened. The door was shut and remained locked. Eventually, as the meeting came to a close, a county staff person, not a TDC employee, informed the staff they needed to keep the door open and blocked it from being completely closed with an urn.

[GoodWitch58]

I agree, WaltonGOP, I think this is a serious situation. Someone needs to acqaint the TDC staff with the Sunshine Law, among other things.

Requiring citizens to sign in order to attend a government workshop is highly unusual--

[wrobert]

Requiring citizens to sign in order to attend a government workshop is highly unusual--

and illegal from everything I can find on the matter.

[chrisv]

The TDC prefers to work under their own rules.

[John R]

should this thread be merged with one of the ones above in 'all about sowal'?

Yes, signing in last night was highly irregular, and locking the door was not only illegal according to the law stated above, but also by safety standards. Even though there are panic bars on the doors, they should have been left unlocked during any public assembly. It is unforgivable behavior coming from any entity, but more so by a governmental one.

regarding sunshine law access, how does it come in to play when a BCC meeting is overflowing and people are standing in the anteroom, and beyond, in the hall? should the county be required to erect a tent when they anticipate an over capacity crowd due to a hot topic?

[rapunzel]

Outstanding article. Thanks for posting.

I agree that the lockout was disturbing.

There were other things that were equally disturbing to me.

First, in his introduction Sonny Mares echoed Mary Brown's assertions at the TDC meeting regarding the funding for the signs coming from the bed tax, not taxes paid by residents. There is a valid argument to be made about tourists and home owners who rent their properties being opposed to the blue signage, but I think the more disconcerting aspect of this statement is that it reveals an attitude from some at the TDC that they are not a county governmental body, beholden to the citizens of Walton County. Yes, they are charged with attracting tourists to the area, but they do so on behalf of the citizens of this county. I sincerely hope the elected officials who appoint the TDC board members do not share the attitude conveyed by some TDC board members and officials last night.

The other thing that I found a bit disturbing was the implication that the TDC had already spent the money for the signs, so the purpose of the workshop was to choose a shade of lipstick for the pig. The number $200,000 was thrown around several times. The funding for the wayfinding signs came from a penny bed tax increase that was passed in 2004 to pay for signage and "other". So far, that one additional penny has generated $9 million. If $9 million has been raised to pay for the signs, and $200,000 has been spent on signs the vast majority or residents, owners, and visitors find unacceptable, then there should be more than enough money left in the pot.

It is just beginning to dawn on me the amount of power invested in the TDC board. The TDC oversees a slush fund of such a size that it would make a U.S. Senator jealous.

[chrisv]

John, I think it should stay a seperate thread- it merited it's own article at WZEP. Pretty big deal and one that shows what the TDC thinks of it's mission.

It is just beginning to dawn on me the amount of power invested in the TDC board. The TDC has a slush fund of such a size that it would make a U.S. Senator jealous.

Well put! This is the real issue, the signs are just the result of the arrogance which accompanies the lack of real oversight which the TDC enjoys.

[John R]

Cheis, I see your point, maybe I'll link it so it's referenced, as they are interconnected.

re the lipstick on a pig. It was running in that direction until someone(a poster on this board, I believe) in the back of the room mentioned that the scenic corridor group's recommendations should carry the most weight, since the majority of those in the room agreed that removal is the only acceptable option. the other 'ideas' on the papers were seen as window dressing, to have something to take back to TDC board.

[Smiling JOe]

regarding sunshine law access, how does it come in to play when a BCC meeting is overflowing and people are standing in the anteroom, and beyond, in the hall? should the county be required to erect a tent when they anticipate an over capacity crowd due to a hot topic?

At all times, for the BCC meetings, the doors to the court room remain open. The South Walton Annex, has an audio system, and if the Commissioners and public use the mics correctly, their voices are projected throughout the halls and outside the building, under the covered areas. If someone wanted to sit outside and listen, they could, and they could come inside, to the mic, to speak.

Sounds like the TDC didn't anticipate the large numbers of people opposing the big blue signs. I'd guess the 200+ people who were there last night, probably were over capacity for that room. Isles to the restrooms and exits were blocked with people, and technically, from a fire standpoint, it was a hazard. However, there was a microphone, and the doors should have remained open so that anyone standing outside the room could hear that which was being said.

Regarding registering attendees, I could see reasons why people would want to sign a petition against the signs, or get on an email list with people who opposed the signs, but for the TDC taking names for the people entering, that reminds me of something that a dictator would do.

[scooterbug44]

The funding for the wayfinding signs came from a penny bed tax increase that was passed in 2004 to pay for signage and "other". So far, that one additional penny has generated $9 million. If $9 million has been raised to pay for the signs, and $200,000 has been spent on signs the vast majority or residents, owners, and visitors find unacceptable, then there should be more than enough money left in the pot.

It is just beginning to dawn on me the amount of power invested in the TDC board. The TDC oversees a slush fund of such a size that it would make a U.S. Senator jealous.

$9 million would pay for new (attractive) signs AND a county wide recycling program!!!!!

[Smiling JOe]

or a bunch of new walkovers when the next storm comes.

[Alicia Leonard]

Thanks for posting this report and kudos to Kevin if he is the one who reported it. Very good job

I'm amazed that the TDC is behaving in such an arrogant fashion concerning the civic rights of Florida citizens during what is supposed to be a public meeting. They need to answer for such behavior.

[30A Skunkape]

Hey, maybe the TDC will be hiring (how much did that cost?) Opinion and Research to conduct another poll on the signs using the names and contact info for those who showed up? Isn't that just as valid a sample as snowbirds who stop at the TDC building? I will be waiting by the phone...

[TooFarTampa]

Thanks for posting this report and kudos to Kevin if he is the one who reported it. Very good job

I'm amazed that the TDC is behaving in such an arrogant fashion concerning the civic rights of Florida citizens during what is supposed to be a public meeting. They need to answer for such behavior.

I commend any and all journalists and everyone here at SoWal who makes an effort to shine a light where for many years there has been none. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that many many government officials have been used to operating however they see fit, because of the small amount of oversight that generally occurs in sleepy little counties.

Maybe one of these wonderful reporters will pull some public records and figure out exactly where that $9 million has gone, and how much more is on its way? It seems that the TDC budget over the past five years needs to be examined thoroughly. This is par for the course in two-newspaper, four-TV station markets like mine. Every single important governmental budget is hashed over by various people. It is the kind of oversight that is essential so the taxpayers don't get hosed. In Walton County it has become especially important because of the huge $$$ that has been sloshing into the coffers as development has surged, combined with the large percentage of non-resident taxpayers.

Thank you for starting this thread WGOP! I agree that this is an extremely important matter and absolutely should be a separate discussion from the blue sign issue.

[30A Skunkape]

One more thing-Somebody needs to encourage the TDC to hold their April meeting somewhere else besides their usual spot or be prepared to make accomodations that comply with the sunshine laws. The same room at the library will suffice as many souls such as myself will not be able to make it (because our existence is not funded by a bed tax). Future evening meetings will best be held in South Walton High's gym!

[chrisv]

One more thing-Somebody needs to encourage the TDC to hold their April meeting somewhere else besides their usual spot or be prepared to make accomodations that comply with the sunshine laws. The same room at the library will suffice as many souls such as myself will not be able to make it (because our existence is not funded by a bed tax). Future evening meetings will best be held in South Walton High's gym!

Skunky, you've hit upon one of the reasons that the TDC has operated in relative obscurity all these years. A public meeting on Wednesday mornings at 9am is a good place to hide. Those of us that work for the man cannot always take the time off work to attend, and they know this.

[Alicia Leonard]

I commend any and all journalists and everyone here at SoWal who makes an effort to shine a light where for many years there has been none. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that many many government officials have been used to operating however they see fit, because of the small amount of oversight that generally occurs in sleepy little counties.

Maybe one of these wonderful reporters will pull some public records and figure out exactly where that $9 million has gone, and how much more is on its way? It seems that the TDC budget over the past five years needs to be examined thoroughly. This is par for the course in two-newspaper, four-TV station markets like mine. Every single important governmental budget is hashed over by various people. It is the kind of oversight that is essential so the taxpayers don't get hosed. In Walton County it has become especially important because of the huge $$$ that has been sloshing into the coffers as development has surged, combined with the large percentage of non-resident taxpayers.

Thank you for starting this thread WGOP! I agree that this is an extremely important matter and absolutely should be a separate discussion from the blue sign issue.

[wrobert]

Okay there was 125 people signed in. And I would guess 30 that did not there at the end. So not a bad turn out for an issue.

[DuneLaker]

I thought 30A Skunkape's count of around 175 on another thread seemed pretty close. The crowd was so overwhelming, guess some folks slipped by the nametakers. For folks that make their living in restaurants, work at night, etc., the 3 plus hours required to attend this meeting (plus a lot more for speakers) was a huge amount of time to sacrifice for the good of the community. The quality of the public's response shined even up against the seemlingly unlimited TDC budget.

[Jdarg]

Skunky, you've hit upon one of the reasons that the TDC has operated in relative obscurity all these years. A public meeting on Wednesday mornings at 9am is a good place to hide. Those of us that work for the man cannot always take the time off work to attend, and they know this.

And the TDC seemed shocked that some of us showed up at that last 9 am meeting, didn't they?

[doxiegirl]

Chris Mitchell appeared on the news tonight and said it was an accident.
County directors were briefed on keeping the doors unlocked. It looked like it was a little cloudy in SoWal yesterday.

Doxiegirl

[GoodWitch58]

And the TDC seemed shocked that some of us showed up at that last 9 am meeting, didn't they?

Sorry you missed last night. It was pretty spectacular!

[Alicia Leonard]

Chris Mitchell appeared on the news tonight and said it was an accident.
County directors were briefed on keeping the doors unlocked. It looked like it was a little cloudy in SoWal yesterday.

Doxiegirl

No dis intended to you doxiegirl, but the excuse is weak.
I think an accident is when you trip and fall. Locking doors and taking names in a public meeting sounds more like a misguided attempt at crowd control by a government entity that is not aware of the law or doesn't think they have to follow it..

[DuneLaker]

Bonnie was on Ch 7, too, illustrating the "door locking" incident. Will probably be on at 10 also. Don't know if anything on 13 on this point or not. Wonder why and who called the Sheriff? Guess someone just wanted to beat up on the public a little more.

[Alicia Leonard]

Bonnie was on Ch 7, too, illustrating the "door locking" incident. Will probably be on at 10 also. Don't know if anything on 13 on this point or not. Wonder why and who called the Sheriff? Guess someone just wanted to beat up on the public a little more.

Fill me in Dunelaker, I don't have cable?

[Jdarg]

Sorry you missed last night. It was pretty spectacular!

Me too- but it sounds like there were plenty of people!!

[doxiegirl]

No dis intended to you doxiegirl, but the excuse is weak.
I think an accident is when you trip and fall. Locking doors and taking names in a public meeting sounds more like a misguided attempt at crowd control by a government entity that is not aware of the law or doesn't think they have to follow it..

Notice I said Chris Mitchell said it. I did not say I agreed with it.

Doxiegirl

[Alicia Leonard]

Notice I said Chris Mitchell said it. I did not say I agreed with it.

Doxiegirl

I know I just didn't want you to take my post the wrong way because you posted the info. ummmmmm does that make sense

Sorry if I offended in any way because that was what I was trying not to do. Thanks for the info

[Puppetmaster]

tlotrehefasfra

The name of the complaintant is in this word jumble.

What difference does it make ?

But I might tell you how to unjumble the letters.

[Smiling JOe]

Theo was already quoted in the newspaper. What's up with the secret spy stuff?

[chrisv]

Bonnie was on Ch 7, too, illustrating the "door locking" incident. Will probably be on at 10 also. Don't know if anything on 13 on this point or not. Wonder why and who called the Sheriff? Guess someone just wanted to beat up on the public a little more.

Apparently the deputy was called when the folks inside the meeting didn't want to be forced to 'dress the pig up." The TDC went into this 'workshop' with the full intention of completely dismissing any attempt by the Scenic Pride Initiative to forward the plan to remove the signs altogether. When it became obvious that the public wouldn't stand for it, someone made a poor decision to call WCSO.

Requiring attendees to sign in, locking out members of the public and the press, and calling for LEO presence is going too far. I believe it is time for a complaint to be filed for a state investigation into possible violations of Florida Open Meetings laws.

[Alicia Leonard]

Theo was already quoted in the newspaper. What's up with the secret spy stuff?

[Alicia Leonard]

Apparently the deputy was called when the folks inside the meeting didn't want to be forced to 'dress the pig up." The TDC went into this 'workshop' with the full intention of completely dismissing any attempt by the Scenic Pride Initiative to forward the plan to remove the signs altogether. When it became obvious that the public wouldn't stand for it, someone made a poor decision to call WCSO.

Requiring attendees to sign in, locking out members of the public and the press, and calling for LEO presence is going too far. I believe it is time for a complaint to be filed for a state investigation into possible violations of Florida Open Meetings laws.

OMG, Thanks Chrisv for keeping me in the loop.
I missed part of that somewhere.

[Smiling JOe]

When did the Sheriff's Deputy show up? I totally missed that part. I did, however, here at least two different occasions of someone banging on the exterior door, hoping to gain access to the meeting.

[GoodWitch58]

Apparently someone from TDC called; deputy came, looked around and did not see a problem and left. Couldn't get in because the door was locked!

[Smiling JOe]

probably thought the building was empty, with the 100+ cars in the parking lot.

[Alicia Leonard]

Apparently someone from TDC called; deputy came, looked around and did not see a problem and left. Couldn't get in because the door was locked!

Isn't it a fire hazard to lock that many people in a room together?

[GoodWitch58]

Isn't it a fire hazard to lock that many people in a room together?

It sure was last night!

[Alicia Leonard]

It sure was last night!

[Smiling JOe]

Isn't it a fire hazard to lock that many people in a room together?

Yes, but only if the doors are locked, preventing exit. Has nothing to do with locking the doors, preventing entry. I am fairly certain that the doors are like the other exterior doors at the Library, with the push bar to unlock. The reason why they are in the locked position has nothing to do with the TDC, but rather, it is because the Library staff unlocks the room for the people using it, but they don't give out the special keys to unlock the doors, so that they automatically lock upon our exit of the facilities. The library doesn't even unlock both doors at the main entry during hours. They unlock only the right door if you are entering the building. I found out the hard way too many times, when trying to leave without pushing the bar. However, if a meeting is to remain open, they could easily staff someone to hold the doors, or prop it open, although technically, propping it open could be a fire hazard if it is done from the interior side of the door, rather than the exterior side.

[Alicia Leonard]

Yes, but only if the doors are locked, preventing exit. Has nothing to do with locking the doors, preventing entry. I am fairly certain that the doors are like the other exterior doors at the Library, with the push bar to unlock. The reason why they are in the locked position has nothing to do with the TDC, but rather, it is because the Library staff unlocks the room for the people using it, but they don't give out the special keys to unlock the doors, so that they automatically lock upon our exit of the facilities. The library doesn't even unlock both doors at the main entry during hours. They unlock only the right door if you are entering the building. I found out the hard way too many times, when trying to leave without pushing the bar. However, if a meeting is to remain open, they could easily staff someone to hold the doors, or prop it open, although technically, propping it open could be a fire hazard if it is done from the interior side of the door, rather than the exterior side.

I had wondered because I thought in the original report someone said they couldn't find the key and maybe it was locked both way

[chrisv]

Yes, but only if the doors are locked, preventing exit. Has nothing to do with locking the doors, preventing entry. I am fairly certain that the doors are like the other exterior doors at the Library, with the push bar to unlock. The reason why they are in the locked position has nothing to do with the TDC, but rather, it is because the Library staff unlocks the room for the people using it, but they don't give out the special keys to unlock the doors, so that they automatically lock upon our exit of the facilities. The library doesn't even unlock both doors at the main entry during hours. They unlock only the right door if you are entering the building. I found out the hard way too many times, when trying to leave without pushing the bar. However, if a meeting is to remain open, they could easily staff someone to hold the doors, or prop it open, although technically, propping it open could be a fire hazard if it is done from the interior side of the door, rather than the exterior side.

I wonder if a preschooler could open those locked doors from inside. Would he/she have the strength to push the bar in and then push the heavy door while still holding the bar? Locking the doors creates a fire hazard, regardless of who is locked inside. It also keeps those pesky members of the public out of our workshop.

[Smiling JOe]

Don't misunderstand my statement. I hate that both of the doors at the main entry are not unlocked every day. I think if the library peeps are going to allow use of the room in the back, they need to issue the Allan-wrench keys to unlock the doors, and lock them back when they are done. I can also see potential issues if the temperature outside that meeting room was 97F degrees, with the doors open.

ChrisV, you bring up an excellent point about the doors maybe not being operable for everyone. This would include people with some physical handicaps. You will probably remember those handicapped doors at the library at UGA, which allowed anyone to approach the door, press a button, and wait a moment, while the door automatically opened. I am surprised that something like that isn't required on all doors to public buildings. Some commercial doors are so heavy that a grown adult has to lean into them to push them open.