Wildlife lighting ordinance hearing Dec. 9

[Walton Outdoors]

Meeting at courthouse in DeFuniak Springs

First hearing of a new wildlife lighting ordinance (a.k.a. sea turtle lighting ordinance) to be heard at Dec. 9 county commission meeting. It is designed to protect endangered sea turtles and other wildlife affected by lights within Walton County's coastal communities.
Tuesday, December 9, 2008
4:00 p.m. Regular Meeting
Walton County Courthouse, DeFuniak Springs
Click Walton Outdoors post to see agenda and ordinance draft

[Jdarg]

Thanks for the link!

[idlewind]

(1) The point source of light or any reflective surface of the light fixture shall not
be directly visible to an observer on the beach: and
(2) The light shall not directly or indirectly illuminate any portion of the beach or
dune system seaward of the crest of the primary dune.
Lights mandated by Federal regulations (e.g., Federal Aviation Administration) for
illuminating obstructions in navigable airspace and lights required by the U.S. Coast
Guard for boat navigation are exempt from the provisions of this section provided such
lights have been reviewed and approved in accordance with requirements of the Federal
Endangered Species Act. Also exempted are traffic signals and traditional holiday lights

used outside the sea turtle nesting season.

Does this mean that SanDestin and others cannot use their huge lights to illuminate the beach for safety purposes? Who is liable when the first tourist gets assaulted in the dark?

[idlewind]

(7) Lighting of dune walkovers and elevated crossovers to the beach is

prohibited.

Who will be liable when someone sues after falling on an unlit walkover?

[scooterbug44]

You can easily have sufficient exterior and safety lighting while following the turtle guidelines. All those guidelines prevent is massive light pollution.

Omnipresent floodlights don't guarantee tourists' safety, but they do kill turtles and keep the same tourists (and locals) from enjoying the night sky.

The last time I went to the beach w/ out of town guests, they had no problem walking down the walkway/stairs w/ the aid of a flashlight or cell phone, but severe injuries were barely avoided from those $%^#%*#* holes in the sand!

[idlewind]

You can easily have sufficient exterior and safety lighting while following the turtle guidelines. All those guidelines prevent is massive light pollution.

Omnipresent floodlights don't guarantee tourists' safety, but they do kill turtles and keep the same tourists (and locals) from enjoying the night sky.

The last time I went to the beach w/ out of town guests, they had no problem walking down the walkway/stairs w/ the aid of a flashlight or cell phone, but severe injuries were barely avoided from those $%^#%*#* holes in the sand!

However, the question remains; if this is passed, is the county liable if someone is injured on an unlit walkover?

[scooterbug44]

Is the county liable if they make someone build stairs to code or install an ADA compliant wheelchair ramp and someone falls down them?

[NotDeadYet]

Idlewind's questions have all been answered at the innumerable hearings on this issue over the last ten years, and more than once, each, no matter whether it is safety, cost, liability, whatever. It's reinventing the wheel, over and over again here in the panhandle. Other places, whether it is other counties in south and central Florida, other states, and even other countries, have all been down this well-traveled road.
For some reason that I cannot understand, people fail to hear the solutions when they are presented. It is as if their minds raise an objection, and then cling to it no matter what information they are given.

[Andy A]

Its very simple. Pass the damn thing! I live on the beach and our front owners can stand the minimal cost and it has been years in coming to fruitionl.

[incredible1]

The darker the better
It sure is pretty when it is
For anyone to be liable for any thing wouldnt it need to be shown for gross negligence to have taken place.
Its like going to a baseball game
You assume the risk of a foul ball maybe hitting you....... cos you are at a baseball game.... and they use baseballs .....
If its dark, be careful .........
Common sense versus courtrooms

[SWGB]

SanDestin will most likely not be affected. Similar to certain areas of PCB (Spinnaker's and LaVela) if the overall noise level is loud enough the lights are not a problem as turtles will avoid the noise first and foremost.

[NotDeadYet]

The west end, including Sandestin, has nests every year.

[John R]

Does this mean that SanDestin and others cannot use their huge lights to illuminate the beach for safety purposes? Who is liable when the first tourist gets assaulted in the dark?

how did humans ever navigate a beach at night before lights? possibly if there are no lights, someone's assumption of the risk is increased...

[wrobert]

how did humans ever navigate a beach at night before lights? possibly if there are no lights, someone's assumption of the risk is increased...

Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards? What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night?

Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not. I do not see how we can have it both ways.

[30A Skunkape]

Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards? What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night?

Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not. I do not see how we can have it both ways.

I think the slip and fall lawyers are the ones who are acting like children and have intimidated us to the point where common sense can't prevail.

[John R]

Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards? What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night?

Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not. I do not see how we can have it both ways.

by your reasoning, should we get rid of traffic lights also?

I believe lights at crosswalks are a pretty standard safety tool used throughout the country. Lights on a beach seem like an amenity and really not a requirement. Most beaches I've been on at night are pretty nice on their own merit, with out lighting.

did i read your statement the wrong way?

re lifeguards. either we should have them on all our publicly accessed beaches, or get rid of the program.

[SWGB]

Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards? What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night?

Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not. I do not see how we can have it both ways.

Perhaps you can explain the detrimental environmental effects of lifeguards or crosswalks?

[idlewind]

Perhaps you can explain to a father and mother why their daughter was raped on a beach we advertise as "safe." There is no way to have a safe beach for humans at night without light. Read any risk prevention pamplet you wish ( my insurance company sends them out by the millions) and it will advise you to make sure your property is well lit in order to prevent you becoming a crime victim.

[John R]

perhaps you advocate the entire beach being lit? do we advertise our beaches being safe at night?

[idlewind]

I don't advocate any lighting on the beach, I also do not advocate banning lighting on the beach. The landowner should be able to make that decision. Since the white sandy parts should be public, then there should be no lighting there. But if the upland owner wants to make his pool area look like Times Square, that is his business.

[John R]

But if the upland owner wants to make his pool area look like Times Square, that is his business.

to a degree. how about it's affect on nesting, or light spillage to his neighbors? it becomes the business of anyone it impacts. by your argument, a noisy party should never get shut down.

[idlewind]

That is why we have a land development code. To insure that the uses of property are compatable. It is the changing of the code AND FORCING EXISTING BUSINESSES/RESIDENTS TO CONFORM that I strongly object to. If government is going to mandate change, they should at least provide funds to pay for it.

[wrobert]

by your reasoning, should we get rid of traffic lights also?

I believe lights at crosswalks are a pretty standard safety tool used throughout the country. Lights on a beach seem like an amenity and really not a requirement. Most beaches I've been on at night are pretty nice on their own merit, with out lighting.

did i read your statement the wrong way?

re lifeguards. either we should have them on all our publicly accessed beaches, or get rid of the program.

No. And we do need marked crosswalks. We also need enforcement of the statute that requires automobiles to yield when someone is standing in a marked crosswalk. What we never needed were those flashy lights in the street that people thought were some sort of shower.

As for your other point, you are use to the beach. I am use to the beach. But we are inviting people down here that have trouble finding Seaside on 30-A. Good grief! Let them have a little light to see by. Edison would have wanted it that way.

[scooterbug44]

You do understand that we are just talking about different light bulbs and light fixtures near the beach, right?

Many new beach/lakefront homes in Sowal already comply with an ordinance about turtle lighting without security or safety problems.

30 watt max light bulbs and fixtures that don't shine directly onto the beach are a small price to pay (literally and figuratively) to protect an endangered species and everyone's enjoyment of the night skies.

[wrobert]

You do understand that we are just talking about different light bulbs and light fixtures near the beach, right?

Many new beach/lakefront homes in Sowal already comply with an ordinance about turtle lighting without security or safety problems.

30 watt max light bulbs and fixtures that don't shine directly onto the beach are a small price to pay (literally and figuratively) to protect an endangered species and everyone's enjoyment of the night skies.

And the current light bulbs and light fixtures are legal to purchase in Lowes? What we are talking about is freedom. Freedom to live in a well lit environment, surrounded by puppies and away from the noisy owls.

[John R]

also freedom to not be assaulted by light pollution spilling over from one's neighbor's property.

[scooterbug44]

WRobert - are they trying to take your puppies away?

I just don't understand why reducing gulf-front light pollution and protecting an endangered species is such a bad thing.

[idlewind]

WRobert - are they trying to take your puppies away?

I just don't understand why reducing gulf-front light pollution and protecting an endangered species is such a bad thing.

Protecting endangered species is not a bad thing, trampling property rights is a bad thing.

[Walton Outdoors]

Turtle lighting ordinances have been in effect across the state as far back as the mid 1980s. Nothing new, if you look at the map on this link, it will show how the majority of turtle nesting areas along the coast in the state have some type of ordinance in place. I was not at the meeting on Dec. 9, but it is my understanding from what I heard from Sharon Maxwell of Turtle Watch, that the biggest objection was from big business, and not private homeowners.

http://www.floridaconservation.org/s..._Ordinance.htm

Map:
http://www.floridaconservation.org/s...dMap_Nov08.pdf

[SWGB]

Perhaps you can explain to a father and mother why their daughter was raped on a beach we advertise as "safe." There is no way to have a safe beach for humans at night without light. Read any risk prevention pamplet you wish ( my insurance company sends them out by the millions) and it will advise you to make sure your property is well lit in order to prevent you becoming a crime victim.

I have lived in this area for over 12 years. I have never once heard of a rape on the beach in South Walton or even PCB for that matter.

Why is it that people always have to go to fear to make their point?

[wrobert]

WRobert - are they trying to take your puppies away?

I just don't understand why reducing gulf-front light pollution and protecting an endangered species is such a bad thing.

And I don't understand why I have to go to South America to get a decent bowl of turtle soup.

[SWGB]

And I don't understand why I have to go to South America to get a decent bowl of turtle soup.

That would be their lack of environmental laws. Could you pick floridagirl up some DDT next time you're down there.

[idlewind]

I have lived in this area for over 12 years. I have never once heard of a rape on the beach in South Walton or even PCB for that matter.

Why is it that people always have to go to fear to make their point?

Why take a chance? I tend to err on the side of human safety.

[idlewind]

And I don't understand why I have to go to South America to get a decent bowl of turtle soup.

[SWGB]

Why take a chance? I tend to err on the side of human safety.

Wouldn't armed patrolmen be more effective?

[idlewind]

Wouldn't armed patrolmen be more effective?

Don't the lifeguards cost about 500 grand? imagine what cops would cost. You can pay for alot of lights and electricity with that kind of money.

[sunspotbaby]

Perhaps you can explain to a father and mother why their daughter was raped on a beach we advertise as "safe." There is no way to have a safe beach for humans at night without light. Read any risk prevention pamplet you wish ( my insurance company sends them out by the millions) and it will advise you to make sure your property is well lit in order to prevent you becoming a crime victim.

Do we really ADVERTISE safe beaches? It's a beach...it's nature...we can't guarantee its safety. Women are raped in broad daylight all the time.

[John R]

Perhaps you can explain to a father and mother why their daughter was raped on a beach we advertise as "safe."

so, when and where did this happen?

[wrobert]

That would be their lack of environmental laws. Could you pick floridagirl up some DDT next time you're down there.

So we compromise the safety of our citizens to save some turtles that are killed in another country. Is there not some sort of new world order or something that we can join that will attack them issue from a global perspective?

[beachmouse]

If you really want a bowl of turtle soup and don't require it to come from an endangered species ala "The Freshman", Commander's Palace in Destin seems to frequently have it on the menu there.

As for woman on vacation getting raped, seems like the stories I've heard in these parts involve stairwells in hotels and condo complexes in PCB, and the most recent assailant was a security guard employed by the hotel/condo.

[ShallowsNole]

so, when and where did this happen?

There have been quite a few in my lifetime, just among people I know. Several of them were not reported.

If I lived gulf-front, I'd have no problem outfitting my home with turtle-safe lights. I understand that by choosing to live down here, instead of on the acreage my husband owns 12 miles northeast of DeFuniak, there are some "rights" I have to give up so as to be a good neighbor to people and to all of God's critters.

[Will B]

As for woman on vacation getting raped, seems like the stories I've heard in these parts involve stairwells in hotels and condo complexes in PCB, and the most recent assailant was a security guard employed by the hotel/condo.

It's horrible regardless of where it takes place, but that's not the beach...

[beachmouse]

My point exactly.

[SWGB]

So we compromise the safety of our citizens to save some turtles that are killed in another country. Is there not some sort of new world order or something that we can join that will attack them issue from a global perspective?

I wouldn't know, perhaps you should ask some of the higher ups in your party.

[scooterbug44]

This is such a stringent ordinance I don't how I would ever bring my house into compliance......................

Oh wait, it already complies because it's just common sense and no floodlights!

[BeachSiO2]

In case anyone is interested, now Panama City Beach has a lighting ordinance.

http://www.newsherald.com/news/turtl...each_city.html

[scooterbug44]

FYI for those concerned about people falling in the dark and lawsuits if this passes - none of the posted public beach accesses I checked friday had any lights.

[BeachSiO2]

I heard the Walton County Wildlife Lighting Ordinance passed last night, but I don't have any details.

[SWGB]

I heard the Walton County Wildlife Lighting Ordinance passed last night, but I don't have any details.

I think it's right along the lines of buying a neutered dog to start a puppy mill.

[BeachSiO2]

Here's the Daily News article:

Walton reaches light at end of tunnel | light, walton, business - News - Northwest Florida Daily News