Minimum Wage for SoWal???

[SHELLY]

Very helpful link.

I doubt anyone can find a 2 bedroom apt. in sowal for $628/month but if we believe the data, those places are available within a 30-45 min commute of us.
Maybe this will be of help to someone.

(1) I don't believe in the data. (I'd believe in Santa first)

(2) Employers who do use this data should give their employees a list of these $628 per month apartments (including utilities) along with their wage offer.

(3) Doesn't adequately reflect apartments taken off the market for "condo conversions" or prices jacked up with "hurricane/real estate boom" premiums.

If business people in SoWal and Destin are using these numbers to justify low wages....they're going to end up getting what they paid for.

[Kimmifunn]

When I moved down there last year for "work" I scowered the place for "affordable" housing. I ended up renting an apartment in Destin- where I was working- at Legacy on the Bay. That was one of LITERALLY about 4 apartment complexes. There's nowhere to live. I was in a 2br and it was like $1050 or something like that. It was a super nice development. But unless I wanted to go over a bridge (Mid-Bay or 331) there's slim pickins. Sooo when they hand over that list I'd love to see it. Not to mention...those 4 complexes have HUGE waiting lists. I somehow walked in the same day someone cancelled moving in. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Sandestin offers housing... I came upon it and we had to ask around to figure it out. I also checked out a senior living home. I was desperate.

[Uncle Timmy]

(1) I don't believe in the data. (I'd believe in Santa first)

(2) Employers who do use this data should give their employees a list of these $628 per month apartments (including utilities) along with their wage offer.

(3) Doesn't adequately reflect apartments taken off the market for "condo conversions" or prices jacked up with "hurricane/real estate boom" premiums.

If business people in SoWal and Destin are using these numbers to justify low wages....they're going to end up getting what they paid for.

Well Ho, Ho, Ho

I spoke with a friend who has just moved into a one bedroom apartment in FWB and is paying $650/month.

He looked at places between FWB and Freeport and reports that one bedrooms ranged from $400 to $800 a month, two bedrooms from $600 to $1,000 a month.

[Kimmifunn]

http://www.legacyonthebay.com/s/homepage

4 Bedroom for $1500...not bad split 4 ways.

[Smiling JOe]

I guess since no one has any idea of what is a living wage in SoWal, we are drifting to the question we must first answer in order to decipher the living wage? I can tell you from what I hear on the street, long-term rent, on avg for a 3/2 in SoWal is around $1300 per mo, plus utilities. Now, lets tackle the question, (and yes, I am changing it to "living wage") what is a living wage in SoWal?

[beachmouse]

My employer got tired of having prospective employees turn down job offers over the housing issue, and has ended up building its own apartment complex so that new faculty will at least have one affordable housing option. Right now the apartments are being described as priced below market rate, and they're within walking distance to work (nice because a working couple can get away with one car then). They're supposed to be finished with construction some time this summer. Pretty average looking small complex so far, but at least they've managed to keep a couple of the neat live oaks in the common areas. It'll be interesting to see how many people who work here take them up on the offer.

[Smiling JOe]

My employer got tired of having prospective employees turn down job offers over the housing issue, and has ended up building its own apartment complex so that new faculty will at least have one affordable housing option. Right now the apartments are being described as priced below market rate, and they're within walking distance to work (nice because a working couple can get away with one car then). They're supposed to be finished with construction some time this summer. Pretty average looking small complex so far, but at least they've managed to keep a couple of the neat live oaks in the common areas. It'll be interesting to see how many people who work here take them up on the offer.

That sounds great and should be posted on the affordable housing thread. I started this thread so that wages in SoWal could be discussed.

[SHELLY]

Well Ho, Ho, Ho
I spoke with a friend who has just moved into a one bedroom apartment in FWB and is paying $650/month.
He looked at places between FWB and Freeport and reports that one bedrooms ranged from $400 to $800 a month, two bedrooms from $600 to $1,000 a month.

But let's take a drive from FWB to SoWal to go to work, shall we??

1) Leave FWB drive through town (past lots of Help Wanted Signs)
2) Over the Brooks bridge down Okaloosa Island (past lots of Help Wanted Signs)
3) Drive through Destin (Past LOTS of help wanted signs)
4) Drive past Destin Commons (Past lots of help wanted signs)
5) Drive past Silvershells Outlet shops (Past lots of help wanted signs)
6) Drive farther down 98 (More help wanted signs)
7) Turn onto whichever street leading down to 30A
8) Arrive at work 1 to 1-1/2 hours later (depending on traffic)

Then doing the same thing in reverse at night?? 5 times a week!

Why on earth would someone travel 65 miles round trip and burn up 3 gallons of gas (@ $2.25 - $2.50), while bypassing NUMEROUS businesses offering up job opportunities with comparable wages to the same jobs being offered along 30A? What do the places in SoWal offer that places in Ft Walton and Destin don't? What can they offer that will make the person residing in FWB drive all that way 5 times a week in hot, humid, high-summer-season traffic?

Oh...I dunno....HIGHER WAGES maybe??

The laws of supply and demand built SoWal up to where it is--low supply and high demand = sky-high real estate prices. Those same forces will apply to workers and wages--low supply and high demand = higher wages. What's sauce for the goose...is sauce for the waiter serving the goose.

The business folks can rationalize the problems away all they want--the rubber will meet the road when they try to find reliable, motivated and hard-working staff when summer hits and patrons waiving money want service NOW!--the managers and asst managers will be run ragged and the business owners will stand flat-footed and clueless as to why folks are not flocking to those $10-12 per hour jobs in paradise.

[SHELLY]

My employer got tired of having prospective employees turn down job offers over the housing issue, and has ended up building its own apartment complex so that new faculty will at least have one affordable housing option.

[SHELLY]

http://www.legacyonthebay.com/s/homepage

4 Bedroom for $1500...not bad split 4 ways.

Condos in Destin won't even rent to people under the age of 25. I'm sure Legacy on the Bay won't be too accommodating to four 18-20 year olds sharing an apartment. Trust me on this one.

[Kimmifunn]

Condos in Destin won't even rent to people under the age of 25. I'm sure Legacy on the Bay won't be too accommodating to four 18-20 year olds sharing an apartment. Trust me on this one.

Didn't even think of that. Well that narrows it down that much more...

[Smiling JOe]

Shelly, post #58 is well said and very true for people choosing to live in FWB, Destin, or Niceville, and for those living in Niceville, add $5 toll to the daily drive to work. When Freeport gets built out over the next 15 years, the same will hold true for anyone coming from north of the Bay. In the future, the same will also be true for people coming from PCB.

Knowing this, let's examine the issue of someone living in SoWal in the rental house costing $1300 per month, sharing the rent with one or two other people.

[Uncle Timmy]

But let's take a drive from FWB to SoWal to go to work, shall we??

1) Leave FWB drive through town (past lots of Help Wanted Signs)
2) Over the Brooks bridge down Okaloosa Island (past lots of Help Wanted Signs)
3) Drive through Destin (Past LOTS of help wanted signs)
4) Drive past Destin Commons (Past lots of help wanted signs)
5) Drive past Silvershells Outlet shops (Past lots of help wanted signs)
6) Drive farther down 98 (More help wanted signs)
7) Turn onto whichever street leading down to 30A
8) Arrive at work 1 to 1-1/2 hours later (depending on traffic)

Then doing the same thing in reverse at night?? 5 times a week!

Why on earth would someone travel 65 miles round trip and burn up 3 gallons of gas (@ $2.25 - $2.50), while bypassing NUMEROUS businesses offering up job opportunities with comparable wages to the same jobs being offered along 30A? What do the places in SoWal offer that places in Ft Walton and Destin don't? What can they offer that will make the person residing in FWB drive all that way 5 times a week in hot, humid, high-summer-season traffic?

Oh...I dunno....HIGHER WAGES maybe??

....And now that you've answered your own question, FOCUS and let's determine what that wage ought to be.

[beachmouse]

The jobs my employer is having problems filling because of housing costs advertise starting pay of $37-$45K per year, which is in the top 25% pay-wise for those kinds of jobs in the Southeast. Granted, these are different housing and living wage expectations that the service workers, but it's a problem that goes pretty far up the wage chain.

[Smiling JOe]

You are right BeachMouse, the problem does go up the chain. Who wants to be a manager in the service industry in SoWal when the same person could be an hourly staffer making more money without the responsibilties and headaches that come from not having staff? You would have to pay me $100K per year to take a management job like that down here, and you better not expect me to work more than 50 hours per week.

[SHELLY]

....And now that you've answered your own question, FOCUS and let's determine what that wage ought to be.

I think Joe is on the right track--the hourly wage for service workers should be based on living wages for the SoWal area--not commuting from cheaper housing areas.

There would be too high a premium that would have to be tacked on to encourage people to drive that far, in the heat, in the traffic, through areas closer to home where their skills are in high demand.

I think if businesses in SoWal want to fix this, they have 4 choices:

(1) Turn back the clock to a time before "low cost housing" was pushed out of the area

(2) Provide on-site housing for employees as part of their wages

(3) Start charging $35 for a grouper sandwich, cut their profit margin, and start paying employees enough to live in the SoWal area (with at least a 1-year binding employment contract).

(4) Open a family-run business.

[Uncle Timmy]

Knowing this, let's examine the issue of someone living in SoWal in the rental house costing $1300 per month, sharing the rent with one or two other people.

Let's assume two people splitting that rent, or $650 each per month.

If we agree with the previous data, ie that a person's housing should equate to no more than 30% of income.....

We arrive at $2,166 monthly income, $26,000 annual, or about $12-13/hour rate.

[beachmouse]

Add another $1-2K on top of that to pay for individual health insruance if the employer is not going to provide it.

[Smiling JOe]

monthly housing costs per person(all costs split evenly by two people):
rent - $650 ea ($1300 split by two people)
power - $50 ea
water/sewer - $60 ea
phone - $15 ea
cable/internet - $30 ea (many people consider this a requirement for living)
renter's insurance - $50 ea
----------------------------
-Totalling $855 per month per person.
-Using the 30% method of housing costs to salary/wages, ($855/.30) = $2850 per month per person.
- This equates to $665 per week per person, which breaks down to $16.63 per person, per hour, based on a 40 hr work week. This calculation is for the entry level service employee chosing to live in the lower rent rental homes in SoWal, and sharing the home with another person.
**************************************************
If someone wanted to live alone in SoWal in smaller home, he or she could expect rent to be cheaper, but will be carrying all of the expenses. I think he or she could expect the following monthly expenses:

rent - $1000
power - $80
water/sewer - $45
phone - $35
cable/internet - $30 (probably get nothing more than basic cable to save)
renter's insurance - $75
-----------------------
-Totalling $1265 per month per person.
-Using the 30% method of housing costs to salary/wages, ($1265/.30) = $4217 per month.
- This equates to $984 per week, which breaks down to $24.50 per hour based on a 40 hr work week.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
As I mentioned before, this is a starting level. There are a limited number of rentals available at this price, and these examples given are the cheaper rents currently on the market.

Please keep in mind that we have not even calculated income taxes in this scenerio. These calculations are pre-taxed dollars, but we all know that taxes are deducted on every pay check in the real world.

Obviously, tipped employees could be okay with lower hourly pay from the employers as long as their tipped average wages were => those I mention.

I hope you guys remember this the next time you moan and groan about the prices of things at the beach. The entry level workers are the ones taking the hits so that other people can get the services they want.

I don't eat out all the time, I could never afford to do so, but if I cannot leave a fat tip, and I am not talking about 20%, I don't eat out.

Again, I am not saying we need a minimum wage of such numbers, just that if employers want to attract and keep employees, they should look closely at the numbers posted above to establish a minimum.

Presently, I am not about to calculate the salary needed for a mid-level manager who wants to buy the starter home, costing $300K in SoWal. If someone else wants to do so, be sure to include the cost of homeowner's insurance and taxes. The calculation is easy, but most of you will freak out when you see the minimum salary needed.

[florida girl]

I think Shelly has hit on a real problem here, however I don't think all the data is being shared. I'm not sure raising the minimum wage is the cure, but a patch on the symptom. If you go north, into the area where most of the workers live you will find the problem. A large percentage of the work force working for little more than minimum wage are not the children of the middle class, they are the sole wage earner for the family, often including the care of an elderly parent who is trying to survive on only their social security income. These jobs are great for the children of the middle class, but where is the middle class??? What is needed is an indepth study of what the largest employers actually pay ie the county in particular, as they set the standard often times with the rest of the employers in the county. I think you'll find that their wages are grieviously low. They are conserned about comparing themselves with the neighboring counties instead of doing their own research as to what Walton county needs are. Our county has broken the mold, and has too many variables. Look around at who is actually working at your neighborhood gas station, or the grocery store, or Walmart, or where ever it is you travel; they are not teenagers, or students, they are older people. Generally you think parents would be living on a retirement pension from the company they worked for, but do you see any company like that here? No. I sometimes think that the people that move here do so to get away from their children, knowing that the children can't afford to live here on the wages that are available. I feel the solution is to bring in larger more stable companies that pay a better wage. I don't think that there is an imediate fix, but things must start moving in that direction. As far as bringing in immigrants, as long as employers can do this and get government perks for it, wages and conditions will never be better for our people. They don't have to improve. Although you basically get what you pay for.

[SHELLY]

I think the 30% figure includes all costs for housing, including rent, utilities, renter's insurance, etc. Also remember that this calculation is based on zero income tax.

Shelly, I know you are somewhat kidding, but regarding #3 on your list, please keep in mind the effects of charging $35 for a grouper sandwich. The restaurant will lose many customers to Publix and cooking at home, thereby causing the business to lay off people, and bring in less gross income, eventually closing the business all together.

In a way it I wasn't kidding about the $35 sandwich. Laying off people will be the least of the worries (as decent service workers will remain in high demand from Biloxi to SoWal). The tragedy will be for the business owners losing their livelihood and the visitors having to travel to Destin or PCB in search of entertainment and a meal. It's the price SoWal now must pay for its rush to gentrification.

[SHELLY]

Let's assume two people splitting that rent, or $650 each per month.

If we agree with the previous data, ie that a person's housing should equate to no more than 30% of income.....

We arrive at $2,166 monthly income, $26,000 annual, or about $12-13/hour rate.

TWT,

I can tell you are totally convinced that $12.50 is the magic number that will attract employees to SoWal businesses.

[Smiling JOe]

TWT,

I can tell you are totally convinced that $12.50 is the magic number that will attract employees to SoWal businesses.

Shelly, I don't think TWT is at all convinced as such. He has a geniune concern and question. Even if one calculates the wage based on all of the factors mentioned, there are only so many homes to rent at the price I mention, and many more employees needed. Also, not everyone want to rent. Perhaps we should also look at the cost of buying a home in SoWal and looking at wages based on that too.

To clarify, we are not trying to set a minimum wage, but simply trying to find the hourly wage point where people can live and work in SoWal in order to keep services coming and businesses open.

[Amp22]

Florida Girl - your profile shows your occupation as low income housing owner - can you give us some specifics to help out the discussion? What is your experience with rents and where are yours located?

[Uncle Timmy]

TWT,

I can tell you are totally convinced that $12.50 is the magic number that will attract employees to SoWal businesses.

Nope

Experience in life has taught me there are rarely single solutions to any problem; and for that matter that any problem exists in isolation without influence from other issues.

As I am interested in all these related issues, I am mearly trying to push this discussion along.

And Shelly, when I said FOCUS - I didn't mean on me. I know my avatar is cute and all, and I'm very flattered but it would be better to focus on the issue at hand.

If you disagree with the $12.50/hour figure, present a line of reasoning and facts to push the discussion along.

[Smiling JOe]

See post #69. Apparently, I edited it instead of posting a new post. :oops: oops!

[SHELLY]

I think Joe's numbers are a good start--assuming of course one can find housing in SoWal for $1,000 per month. My guess is that places like that have long since been sold off for a hefty profit.

Settling on a single wage is far too simplistic. There are so many more variables to consider. For example:

Not all employees are waiters who would beef up their wages with tips (they also need house cleaners [tips are expected but rarely received]; food counter workers, clerks, lifeguards, beach chair attendants, reservation staff, security, etc.). The minimum wage will have to be set to draw in the non-tip employees.

Most of the jobs are seasonal and finding roommates and getting long-term leases wouldn't apply.

Rental units in and around a decent driving distance are as rare as rocking horse manure. Going forward one must assume there are some homeowners willing to rent their "investment" to multiple tenants in the 18-to-20 age group [not likely]. Assuming this would happen...when employees are needed most (in the tourist season) home owners who may want to rent at other times of the year will pull their rentals off the market--why get $1200 a month when you can get $1400 a week?

Lots of younger folks [and older folks] have debt obligations (car payments, student loans, tire rims, cell phone bills) and poor credit scores that would not pass muster with landlords who run credit checks before renting.

Most people who go through the time and expense of moving into an area and settle down do so with the intention (and the need) to be employed full-time. Many of SoWal jobs that go begging wouldn't provide the security needed to make people consider such a move.

Finding folks to take summer jobs in the past worked because there was a good mix of various levels of income classes scattered around the panhandle. In Destin and Panama City there were several old mid-long term furnished beach apartments and homes that had no problem housing a bunch of service workers who migrated down from the North to make money during the summer season.

In the last 2-3 years all of that changed. Old motels and apartments were torn down and replaced (or are in the process of being replaced) by high-cost condos. Older rental houses were sold and the new owners have increased rent considerably trying to cover their carrying costs and make a profit. Whole communities of low-mid income families sold out or were priced out of the area. Along with them went an entire group of young family members willing to take low-wage jobs or adults willing to take a part-time weekend job to supplement their low salaries.

When all is said and done, I can't offer up any near-term or quick fix solution--I wish you luck trying. I DO know that $12.50 isn't going to attract the quality and quantity of employees needed to support the tourist season, but throwing money at the problem appears to be the only solution until affordable housing returns to SoWal or a massive migrant worker program is employed. I think SoWal businesses are going to have a tough go of it over the next few tourist seasons until they figure it out and they'd better figure it out soon before all those new condos and housing areas come on line and are filled with folks wanting to be serviced.

[SHELLY]

A Focused Article

[Smiling JOe]

Shelly, that article is a dead-on mirror of Walton Co. and I am surprised to see that the numbers even correlate. It is a little lengthy compared to most posts but extremely relavant and worthy of a full read. Good job finding and posting it.

[kurt]

A scene repeated again and again.

What does the commissioner expect - for the developer to sell below market value and not make a profit?

"My brother bought a house three years ago in Olympia (a Wellington subdivision) for $330,000. That same house today is selling for $780,000," Palm Beach County Commission Chairman Tony Masilotti said. "Why is that? Profit taking.

"The developer bought that land 10 years ago at $45,000 an acre, and they get two units an acre. So what's different today? Why such a price increase? They're profit-taking."

[Uncle Timmy]

Great article Shelly.

I think it can be very helpful to see how other municipalities are dealing with similar issues.

I found two points within the article very interesting:

1) The push for 'Inclusionary Zoning' laws which require developers to include affordable housing in developments.

2) That FL has a 'housing trust fund' intended to build and/or preserve affordable housing and that Gov. Jeb Bush has rountinely raided this fund to help balance his budgets instead of using the money for its intended purpose.

Has our discussion on minimum wage lead us to a discussion about 'Inclusionary Zoning'?

[SHELLY]

A scene repeated again and again.

What does the commissioner expect - for the developer to sell below market value and not make a profit?

Kurt,
I don't think that should be the case. Clearly, "speculative frenzy" has been a HUGE factor adding to the soaring price of real estate. Let's face it--granite countertops haven't appreciated 200% in the last couple of years. Condos--build a few hundred more. Land--carve out a few more acres and fill in the wetlands. People were clearly rushing to make money before the air started seeping out of the Real Estate Bubb....ah...Whoopee Cushion. (Smart developers, realtors and investors knew the party couldn't last forever.)

Capitalism and demand for higher profit has caused these problems--capitalism is the only answer to the problem. But until affordable housing magically returns to SoWal (which I don't see anytime soon--or at all)...luring workers to the area by offering more and more money (enough to provide a living wage) is the only answer.

[SHELLY]

Good reason for studying and obtaining a higher education. Stop Illegals from stealing job they are not due. Make legal Immagration the real priority. And wages and jobs will improve. Because now someone here illegally can't undermine your worth!

There aren't many "rocket scientist" want ads in the SoWal paper so obtaining a degree won't change the labor situation in the area.

There are only 3 solutions to solving the overall labor problems of SoWal going forward:

(1) Raise wages sufficiently to convince people it's worth their while to travel 2+ hours round-trip on "Bloody Highway 98" during the peak summer tourist season

OR

(2) Build "affordable" workers' housing very close to SoWal or with reasonable public transport available (affordable means the employee should be able to pay the rent and have enough money left over to eat, pay bills & medical, and save for retirement on the wages given).

OR

(3) Establish employment services which provide seasonal, cheap migrant workers (and feed & house the same), to keep service wages low.

[beachmouse]

There aren't many "rocket scientist" want ads in the SoWal paper so obtaining a degree won't change the labor situation in the area.

Though if you don't mind the hour commute to Eglin from the Topsail/Sacred Heart area, there are always a good number of those rocket scientist/engineering jobs on base. Or at least as long as they don't yank 46th Test Wing to Edwards like they're now threatening.

[redrocket]

something has got to give. red rocket rambles four days a week and barely makes gas money. i guess everyone is on the struggle, so bar owners aren't willing to pay enough to propigate our species and we are becoming endangered. thank god for people like smiling joe who respects the institution of tipping and supporting local entertainers. all your favorite places won't be any fun when there's no good live music because we all had to drive to panama or fwb to make 6-10 bucks an hour playing our hearts out. skilled labor or unskilled labor...what about the muse? where does he/she fall by the wayside in this? ill tell you, back to the land of the day job which allows no time for practice or family. then before you know it, another band bites the dust and the bar owner finds some dj to do karaoke for $150 and we have to listen to our firends from abroad sing their fav toby kieth song instead of hot live music. everyone feels this crunch...except for big developers who have us all dangling over the flame. exit soapbox

on a lighter note, come watch me make my 6-10 tonite at pandoras at 7pm. i will be validated in my efforts by your presence.

ps- this isn't a stab at bar owners, just a stated fact that many other musicians would agree with.

[SHELLY]

on a lighter note, come watch me make my 6-10 tonite at pandoras at 7pm. i will be validated in my efforts by your presence.

ps- this isn't a stab at bar owners, just a stated fact that many other musicians would agree with.

May your tip jar runneth over.

[Smiling JOe]

Sorry, I forgot to mention: please remember to tip the bands and your bartenders and servers. You pay no cover to see the bands down here, so the least you can do is throw a few bucks per person their way.

Rocket, you guys should hire Melanie to pass around the tip bucket. She always seems to get people off their wallets.

[SHELLY]

Though if you don't mind the hour commute to Eglin from the Topsail/Sacred Heart area, there are always a good number of those rocket scientist/engineering jobs on base. Or at least as long as they don't yank 46th Test Wing to Edwards like they're now threatening.

If there are plenty of openings, obviously the pay and benefits aren't worth commuting or relocating to paradise for--then again, maybe prospective employees know something about the move that we don't....?

[Camp Creek Kid]

Good reason for studying and obtaining a higher education. Minimum wage is on par with socialism. the market will dictate what wages will be w/o gov't interference. Except when illegals are constantly allowed to steal jobs at lower wages.The home building industry is a prime example. W/O a Degree one could still make a decent(livable wage) but now it's inundated with migrant or illegal workers than are paid under the table. Look all along 30A to see. Or anywhere else in the US!! Why would any employer hire someone for say a $10 min wage when they can elude employment taxes & health benefits and hire 2 illegals for $5/hr and not pay 7.5% FICA. This is now spreading throughout corporate America. Call the phone company and talk to "William" from India. Am I the only one who recognizes this problem? Stop Illegals from stealing job they are not due. Make legal Immagration the real priority. And wages and jobs will improve. Because now someone here illegally can't undermine your worth!

Foreign workers (illegal or otherwise) make much more than $5 per hour. Just because a person speaks Spanish, it doesn't mean that they are stupid. Foreign workers recognize their value and know that if someone doesn't pay them the $10 an hour that they want, someone else down the road will. There is a labor shortage in the construction industry and those who are willing to work an honest day will get paid an honest day's wage. Any employer in the construction industry would love to hire hard working, dependable, honest and legal workers, but workers of this description do not exist. Also, every penny of profit that an employer makes is taxed. An employer cannot deduct an illegal employee's wages so the employer ends up taking the hit somewhere. The FICA does get paid even if it ends up being the employer who pays it as part of the 15% self-employment tax that he pays.

[beachmouse]

It's not so much the relocation/living expenses for the rocket scientists down here. It's just a pretty limited employee pool when you're looking for someone with five to ten years direct weapons develoment experience and top secret clearance.

A family friend is a missle development guy on the base. Over the years, he's gotten much amusement from using the line "Well actually I am a rocket scientist."

[SHELLY]

It's not so much the relocation/living expenses for the rocket scientists down here. It's just a pretty limited employee pool when you're looking for someone with five to ten years direct weapons develoment experience and top secret clearance.

I guess they'll have more luck filling the slots when they relocate to Calif--there are lots more "space cadets" out that way.

[SHELLY]

Any employer in the construction industry would love to hire hard working, dependable, honest and legal workers, but workers of this description do not exist. Also, every penny of profit that an employer makes is taxed. An employer cannot deduct an illegal employee's wages so the employer ends up taking the hit somewhere.

Thanks for reminding me to light a candle tomorrow at church for the poor contractors who are "forced" to pay illegals $10 per hour under the table to build $70,000 condos they sell for $350,000. Sometimes life is just so damn unfair.

[Camp Creek Kid]

Thanks for reminding me to light a candle tomorrow at church for the poor contractors who are "forced" to pay illegals $10 per hour under the table to build $70,000 condos they sell for $350,000. Sometimes life is just so damn unfair.

My post was in response to Beachsteelers post about not being able to find a decent construction job because illegals get paid $5/hour. This is not true. Illegals get paid more than that, they're not flooding the market with CHEAP labor, they pretty much are the only labor available. A legal worker who would actually work and be dependable would be very valuable to any employer and would get paid accordingly. It is a myth that illegal workers are taking jobs from legal workers.

Your numbers on construction are low. Try a minimum of $150/sq. ft. for construction costs alone then add to that land costs, interest, realtors commissions and you'll be closer to the mark.

[Mango]

Presently, I am not about to calculate the salary needed for a mid-level manager who wants to buy the starter home, costing $300K in SoWal. If someone else wants to do so, be sure to include the cost of homeowner's insurance and taxes. The calculation is easy, but most of you will freak out when you see the minimum salary needed.

This would be too difficult to calculate due to all the variables involved.
How much money is this person putting down on the house? Most mid-level management people would have most likely already owned a home already or have saved some money for a down-payment. Further, what industries out there are employing middle managers? From what I have seen in the past couple of years of owning there in SoWal is either the business is run by an owner and they are employing service workers.(or trying to anyway)
Anyone who has enough business acumen does not stay working very long for anyone else. This is what I have heard from our landscapers, pool people etc., who I believe would fit your definition of service worker?

[Mango]

Great article Shelly.

I think it can be very helpful to see how other municipalities are dealing with similar issues.

I found two points within the article very interesting:

1) The push for 'Inclusionary Zoning' laws which require developers to include affordable housing in developments.

2) That FL has a 'housing trust fund' intended to build and/or preserve affordable housing and that Gov. Jeb Bush has rountinely raided this fund to help balance his budgets instead of using the money for its intended purpose.

Has our discussion on minimum wage lead us to a discussion about 'Inclusionary Zoning'?

I agree with UT. However, I don't think inclusionary Zoning would work in SoWal right now with a 50 ft height restriction. Further, owners of homes in SoWal wiould most likely not want huge projects in the area.

I think a possible solution could be North. Allow developers to build their single family home developments, and give them tax incentives for building high rises that can be offered as rentals or coops for sale. In New York, developers are given huge tax breaks for developing affordable housing. They are also given tax abatements as well. Not sure if anyone is familiar with coops as they are not popular in Florida, but they are huge here in New York. Basically you own your apt. and shares in the corporation. They are a much more affordable solution for people vs. fee simple ownership. Further, quite a few people start out in coops, then rent them out, and move to single family homes as their careers progress. In some buildings that have not converted to coop, the original developers have to cap the rents as per law (rent controlled)

[Allifunn]

I agree with UT. However, I don't think inclusionary Zoning would work in SoWal right now with a 50 ft height restriction. Further, owners of homes in SoWal wiould most likely not want huge projects in the area.

I think a possible solution could be North. Allow developers to build their single family home developments, and give them tax incentives for building high rises that can be offered as rentals or coops for sale. In New York, developers are given huge tax breaks for developing affordable housing. They are also given tax abatements as well. Not sure if anyone is familiar with coops as they are not popular in Florida, but they are huge here in New York. Basically you own your apt. and shares in the corporation. They are a much more affordable solution for people vs. fee simple ownership. Further, quite a few people start out in coops, then rent them out, and move to single family homes as their careers progress. In some buildings that have not converted to coop, the original developers have to cap the rents as per law (rent controlled)

What is the difference between coop and condo?

[Mango]

[QUOTE=Allifunn]What is the difference between coop and condo?[/QUOTE

Coops are Shares in a corporation that owns the building. Proprietary Lease establishes occupancy terms. No recording of a deed or central recording of sale information.A Group of residents, mostly owners, that have the right to accept or reject applicant owners or tenants. Not appealable. Maintenance - Monthly payment that consists of building upkeep, real estate taxes and payment of the underlying coop loan, generally from when the building was converted to a coop from a rental building. In most cases 40% to 60% of the maintenance is tax deductible. Real Estate Taxes - Included in Maintenance. Some buildings have abatements that do run out and thus increase taxes later on.Prospectus / Black Book / Offering Plan and Amendments - Outline the terms of the original coop offering and amendments update along with rules of the buildingFinancials - Prepared Yearly by outside accountant to determine financial status and profitability of the coop.
Management Company - Outside company that collects maintenance, operates the building, maintains records. Smaller building may be "self managed by the occupants / owners.Financing - Certain coops have financing restrictions (down payment minimums, income minimums, etc.).
Sublet / Renting - Generally require board approval. Certain boards do not allow subletting or place limit on the sublet (2 year maximum, 1 year minimum, etc.) Sale - Certain coops have a transfer fee / flip tax that each coop seller must pay back to the coop upon sale of the unit

CONDO: Condominiums
orm of Ownership - Deed that is recorded at the county clerk's. Transferable as any other house or property.
Board Approval - 99% of the time not required.
Common Charges - Monthly payment that consists solely of building upkeep.
Real Estate Taxes - Each individual owner pays their own on each unit.
Prospectus / Black Book / Offering Plan and Amendments - Outline the terms of the original offering and amendments update along with rules of the building.
Financials - Prepared Yearly by outside accountant to determine financial status and profitability of the condo association.
Management Company - Outside company that collects maintenance, operates the building, maintains records. Smaller building may be "self managed by the occupants / owners.
Condo Attorney - Generally non existent.
Financing - Only restrictions are lender required.
Sublet / Renting - Generally no restrictions.
Sale - No restrictions. Generally no costs.

Coops are generally less expensive than condos due to the tax abatements on the land by the City. Also, some coops have commercial storefronts that help with lowering the monthly maintenance for the owners.

[Bud]

as soon as i myself become employed again, i will be sure to tip, but for now may I just be a muse??? ...................lwp

[cpete]

Just spent most of my lunch time and then some reading this thread!

Very interesting stuff, having spent a portion of my post college years cleaning condos and answering phones to get in 50 plus days on the snow at a quaint little ski resort town near Gunnison, Colorado back in the 90’s.

It seems like you need a large entrepreneurial, family that doesn't mind working together to make a go of it. But I guess even then the kids grow up.