Gulf shore manor beach

Discussion in 'Local Government and Groups' started by Beach days, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Lover

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    As a owner in gulf shore manor beach , I would like to ask the public’s opinion. The county renounced all rights to gulf shore manor beach in 1978. Then in 1994 a judge ruled in favor of the owners in gulf shore manor, that the beach was all of the property owners that included the beach from Pelayo to Dothan street. That’s the beach and upper land in the dunes. Since then the county has built a parking lot on gulf shore manor property ( bramble grove). Then placed county parking on private streets. They receive money from they government for each parking space made. There was never an agreement with any of the land owners for this nor was there any purchase of the property. Now there is lawyers trying to take the land. they are building houses on property a judge ruled was gulf shore manors beach. The county gave a permit now says it’s up to owners to stop them building with a law suit. Now since the customary use issue we have the hub shipping people in from watercolor phase 4, Nature Walk and the county posts it as public. I think as a group the majority of the people are for all to use. The problem now is we get everyone on just our beaches since surrounding areas are being blocked & posted as private beaches.Should we sue county for taking land that was not there’s or close off beach access.
     

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  2. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    1. I am not a lawyer, nor played one on TV, nor consider myself to an experts in legal matters. Any thing below is just one persons opinion since you asked and no one else has replied.
    2. This is a very interesting and complicated situation
    3. Document # 907 on Case 2018-CA-00547 is a motion for sanctions related to Gulf Shore Manor. You may want to see how Judge Green rules on that motion first? This could impact your path forward?
    4. Does the Gulf Shore Manor Beach home owners association have a unified voice on what they want to accomplish?
    5. Have you discussed the issue with at least one commissioner yet? If they weren't willing to listen have your tried a 2nd or 3rd? If 3 of the commissioners are not willing to listen then the vote could be 2-3 and may require legal intervention. That is a shame if BCC is not willing or interested to talk to private property owners to avoid lawsuits, but that has happened before. It appears sometimes they have already decided what they are going to independent of any feedback or facts from the public.
    6. Appears Kent Safriet might be already familiar with the situation since he was the lawyer that filed Doc #907. It might be worth a few hours consultation to discuss with him after you know the answer to #4?

    Just an individual opinion and only suggestions and no recommendations.

    Good luck and keep us informed on the outcome
     
  3. 30A Skunkape

    30A Skunkape Mr. Small Box

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    This is ground zero for a quiet title action right now.
     
  4. Auburn Fan

    Auburn Fan Beach Lover

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    What makes you say that?
     
  5. Auburn Fan

    Auburn Fan Beach Lover

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    I'm not that familiar with Gulf Shore Manor Beach.

    Is the Santa Clara public beach access right in the middle of it?

    Is that where those two leftist democratic political candidates just orchestrated that "Stand your Sand" protest in response to the FBFA event inviting everyone to go to any regional or neighborhood access on July 1st? You know, the one that was covered by Channel 13, and they were holding that big yellow banner with a bunch of little kids.
     
  6. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Lover

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    It goes from Dothan street to pelayo , Santa Clara is included.This weekend noticed the TDC had vendors at all walkovers. This is the only beach that I’m aware of that the county signed all rights to away. There was a few people who sued a developer for encroachment on gulf shore manors property which is also the upper dunes.the gulf shore manor owners one.If you notice south San Juan it is a private street with county parking. The also made parking on Santa Clara north that was not there property.
     
  7. 30A Skunkape

    30A Skunkape Mr. Small Box

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    Because I donated money to the legal defense fund to squash it if the county lawyers fail to.
     
  8. FactorFiction

    FactorFiction Beach Fanatic

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    Beach days, we seem to have pages 1 and 4 of the judgment, but no 2 and 3. If the county truly denounced any rights, that should give you a very interesting argument in the CU case. I guess the county will claim they changed their minds! Seems there is a lot of that where it concerns private property.:doh:
     
  9. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Lover

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    Here’s Paige 2,3
     

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  10. Auburn Fan

    Auburn Fan Beach Lover

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    I apologize, but I'm still not understanding. Can you explain a little more detailed please?
     
  11. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Lover

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    if you look at the county tax maps. The county has been doing quite title for upland owners. The judgement rules for perpetual use . That’s for the beach and upper dunes. They pay 100.00 , then get to claim it but it’s not warranted or can they stop us from using, there stance is it’s between owners and there lawyers not there problem.
     
  12. Dave Rauschkolb

    Dave Rauschkolb Beach Fanatic

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    Ah, Who is "US" ?
     
  13. FactorFiction

    FactorFiction Beach Fanatic

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    I take that to mean those of us viewing this thread. Why do you think "us" is, Dave?
     
  14. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Lover

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    The owners of gulf shore manor.As a group I would say we are 90 percent c/u.what we are not in support of is lawyers such as frank Watson who is helping the group of people trying to steal gulf shore manor property.He signed for the houses being built on beach to the east of Santa Clara on gulf shore manor property. the county says it’s up to stop them.The county has relinquished all rights to gulf shore manor beach and a judge has ruled it to be the owners of gulf shore manor property. The planning dept. has let them build on our property because frank Watson said it was the group he’s representing land even though maps show otherwise. the problem comes in where the hub ships people in by bus to our beach when watersound beach is across from them.watercolor phase four comes to our beach nature walk comes to our beach and there is a considerable amount of people from sea grove using gulf shore manor.the Fourth of July I had to set up at 530 am. To get a spot on gulf shore manors beach.the county has put public use on our beach walkovers and allowed vendors to set up. I have called Mac Carpenter at his office 4 times and still no response from him.If watersound , sea side and rosemary beach will not allow public on there beaches why should we take on the overload of people . The county has built all of there parking lots and spaces on our neighbor hood land and call it public.I am for the public using any of the beach but developers or the county should not be able to override the ruling of a circuit judge or renounce all rights to a beach then build on land they don’t own or make all of our walkovers public. Take a look at south San Juan it’s a blue sign which means private street but the county still built public parking on. They receive 1,000 per space from government and give nothing back to the owners of gulf shore manor or want to help when a greedy lawyer tries to take land that’s not there’s. maybe watersound and other developments should build public walkways through there neighborhoods for people to use there beach’s also
     
  15. outofadream

    outofadream Beach Lover

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    I Agree that Watersound Watercolor Rosemary Beach and Seaside should allow everyone to be able to access the beach through these communities. Some of the most vocal proponents of customary use live in these communities!
     
  16. James Bentwood

    James Bentwood Beach Fanatic

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    Not saying I agree or disagree but how would you make that work? Doesn't seem so simple. At Rosemary Beach for instance, would the town be overrun by people not staying there? Not sure since there is hardly any parking which is taken up by people living or renting there. So probably wouldn't make much difference.
    At Watersound beach you have a gated community. Even if the beach was public how do you throw open the gates now? Or if you provided parking outside the gate and a path to the beach, who is going to walk a mile?
     
  17. outofadream

    outofadream Beach Lover

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    I don’t have answers to your practical questions but basically all I’m saying is if the customery use wins “the battle”these communities should not be exempt from allowing the public to use their beaches?!As far as Rosemary Beach is concerned if my money is good enough to be spent in the shops and restaurants there, I should be able to walk down to the beach! All beach boardwalks are gated in Rosemary And yes the town would be overrun with tourists.. look at Seaside… But those tourists are spending money and isn’t that part of the customery use issue? No customary use equals less tourists who come and spend money in all the restaurants and shops on 30A including Seaside so restaurant owners who live in private gated communities that do not allow people to use their beaches are a bit hypocritical?.. it kind of sounds like go and play in somebody else’s backyard but not in mine… I totally agree with you on the issues of not enough parking, too many people and not a real shuttle system along 30A. Development and unbridled growth should’ve been corralled in when the economy tanked in 2007-2009 but it wasn’t so here we are...the old adage build it and they will come but no place to park or get to the beach!!
     
  18. Dave Rauschkolb

    Dave Rauschkolb Beach Fanatic

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    I wrote this in answer to a question on the SoWal Forum. I believe it characterizes our situation adequately and offers solutions whether our County is awarded renewed Customary Use or not.

    ACCESS & USE, CONVENIENCE ADVANTAGES & HOUSEKEEPING ON THE BEACH

    This issue is based on the difference between access and use. In most privately held areas access to the beach is controlled just like in Seaside, Rosemary, Watersound, Watercolor & Alys and others. Use is a different thing all together which is causing all the hullabaloo over Customary Use. The perception problem I see with the private beach advocates is this: "if I own the access, I own the beach." I say they are two different things entirely and the problem arises when one group perceives them to be together and another group sees them as separate.

    Rosemary Beach, Seaside, Watersound, Alys and others all have accesses that are private, meaning they control the "easy" access to the beaches; they are the closest to guest homes and parking. Each street has an access for convenience much in the same way Seagrove Beach was designed by Cube McGee. Unlike in Seaside, Cube in the 1940s kept the access public and the beach was and most of it still is deeded for public use. Having an easy access is premium. The fact about going to the beach is, most people just don't want to lug all their beach stuff in the sand more than say, 50 yards.

    In Seaside, Robert Davis has chosen, for the past 40 years to allow public access to town center. That access is a positive element when you purchased because "it accommodated all."; I believe the public town center access is good for our town. Again, we are talking about "access." In these instances where privately held towns/resorts have private access it is bought and paid for; it is the most convenient for that reason.

    In most all of these towns you have to either be staying there or own there to access the beach conveniently. Public access is an element of wonderful beach towns all around the world and Seaside, thankfully is no different. Part of what makes Seaside exceptional is it's town center public access. Watersound, where I live has the closest public access at Deer Lake State Park just towards the western boundary of Watersound. The closest public access on the east is about a half mile east of the Peninsula gate at Watersound on the other side of the lake bridge. Non residents and tourists do come to Watersound but not too often because it is a long walk. Roughly 65 feet of sandy beach is dedicated to the public in Watersound and all St. Joe properties due to a land deal with the State in the 80's. So, even now Watersound is a public beach with predominantly private access but a large area of the sandy beach is open to the public for sharing if they take the walk. The beach chairs are only usable by renters, homeowners, beach club members or both. Anyone my set up and enjoy the normal customary beach activities anyone would participate in at Watersound Beach. We all know Rosemary Beach and Aly's all have combination locks at all town beach accesses except from the nearest public access. Since HB631 folks may only walk in the wet sand in Rosemary, Alys and the parts of Seaside away from the town center public access area.

    Now let's discuss use. Because I am a proponent of Customary Use, I believe that anyone who may access the beach from a public access point may use the beach as people customarily have for centuries. Once they are on the beach they may traverse east or west on any part of the sandy beach and enjoy the beach wherever they please provided they are willing to walk that far with all their stuff. Beach vendors used to take orders for chairs and placed them individually for each call wherever the renter wished. At the end of the day they picked up the chairs. It was a clean transaction; drop off, pickup and get paid. They did not take over large swaths of the beaches with unattended beach chairs like they do now; I expect that is about to change. And my hope is Customary Use will prevail so we may go back to the way we have alway used the beaches until July 1, 2018 when HB631 went into effect.

    I contend that all these towns including Seaside have a geographic advantage or rather, a convenience advantage. Remember I said people don't like to lug their stuff more than 50 yards? It is well documented that the areas where conflict occurs regarding use are the sandy parts of the beaches closest to public accesses. Rosemary Beach's E & W border streets, Seaside's E & W border Streets, Blue Mountain Beach, Ed Walline Beach access, etc....the concern and conflicts mostly happen in these areas because you have the public moving on to the beaches behind private homes that border the public access. I would contend that the interior homes that are more than 100 yards from the public accesses have fewer issues if at all. People just don't have the proclivity to walk long distances to go to a specific beach. So, those beachfront owners who bought near a public access should have known people would be using the beach behind their homes. They had the option of buying an interior home with more seclusion but they did not. Many of those folks, the border folks, are the loudest voices pushing for private beaches. I say if you buy a home right next to a cow pasture...well, then get used to the cows. Buyer beware. Pretty simple. We are not hearing so much complaining from the folks in the more secluded areas away from public accesses.

    I was in Hanalei Bay on Kauai with my wife some years ago and we stayed at the Princeville Resort. There was a public access around the property to accommodate the public to get to the beach. It was a long walk that most did not take except for the surfers wanting to surf the bay. If you stayed at the resort you had "private access" which was more convenient and provided the privilege of beach chairs and other amenities tied to the resort. The locals and tourists came to the beach by a nearby, bordering public walkway. They had to carry their stuff and were not permitted to rent or use the beach chairs as they were not staying at the resort. They were permitted to use the beach though and set up with their own stuff if they wished. Very few ever did because the resort had a geographic advantage and people had to park and walk a long way to get there. They both shared the resource but with fair ground rules everyone understood. Different access but shared use. Private access on the one hand, Public access on the other. Shared use. Simple, fair and equitable.

    Lastly, I suggest, whether CU is re-instated or not, to regulate behavior, be proactive and educate beachgoers we should expand the army of TDC paid Beach Ambassadors. They would be uniformed and trained in public relations on the acceptable Walton County beach do's and dont's. All the current volunteers led brilliantly by Laurie Reichenbach could and should be paid positions. I suggested this program to the County, TDC and Sheriff almost two year ago. Through the partnership of a group of dedicated volunteers and paid TDC staff the program is excellently working to help address behavioral complaints from homeowners and inform the beachgoing public. The irony is, I first suggested that program idea to help address behavior complaints from Beachfront owners and since HB631 they may no longer use and traverse most private beaches to do what they were meant to do.

    I suggest breaking out all of the Walton County Beaches into 3 separate sectors with 3 phone numbers. Each team of Ambassadors would work the beaches 24/7 on some acceptable, small vehicle. Electric would be best because they are quiet. These Ambassadors would respond to Beachfront owners concerns about behavior behind their homes. They would call a Beach Ambassador instead of the Sheriff if someone got out of line. If it escalated then the Sheriff would be called. Mostly they would be helpful, friendly, welcoming ambassadors of our community. Keeping an eye out for deep turtle hole diggers, encouraging safety and informing the public. Occasionally they might be needed to usher someone off the dunes or a private walkover. This program is already working; let's make it really work for beachfront owners and us all.

    floridabeachesforall.org

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Lover

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    Maybe these gated neighborhoods should do what Carillion beach does. they allow so many parking spots for the public . all you do is pull to the gate and they tell you where you can park.
     
  20. TheWordLady

    TheWordLady Beach Crab

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    This thread and another from last year (quit claim of beach front land, Sept 2018) in regards to GSM's access points and land grab of "unused" land seem to circle the issues, with most of the complaints or defenses from non-GSM-homeowners focusing on "customary use." I am not one who thinks the general public should not be allowed on beaches past the waterline. Let me say that up front, so do not assume that my argument is to keep the public out.

    The issue with the current quit claim action surrounding GSM is layered:
    • First, if the neighborhood had built something on the land in question (like a pavillion or tennis court) instead of simply posting a sign that it was the GSM bird sanctuary, could anyone from anywhere claim it then? Does it create precedence for anyone's land that is unused for long periods to be "quit claimed"? Probably. This is land that was laid out and deeded as GSM a hundred years ago that the neighborhood left pristine with sandy paths that it still uses to get to the beach. If GSM had built wooden paths would this be different?
    • The quit claimers are trying to also grab up land that was labelled for streets, buffer, or communal areas on the original deeds not just beach front, for their own profit. Does this mean that anyone buying in any neighborhood from now on better make sure that they also own/or have deed title to a portion of its roads, buffers, undeveloped areas, etc. to protect themselves?
    • Access points are being taken not just from "the public" but from home owners who bought in that neighborhood as it was shaped originally. The biggest offense is that; everyone but the builders or buyers of whatever is developed will have no rights to enter the beach there. This argument is not about GSM trying to keep the public off their paths. Could any of these other communities that we see listed in all these arguments about C/U lose their access points just because someone richer came along and "worked" the system? Imagine if you bought in a neighborhood anywhere and a richer person came along and took up your tennis courts, or your neighborhood pool and locked you out? Worse. . .without compensation? Just because the government said they could. . .
    • A few of GSM's beach access points have already been absorbed "quit claimed" out from under them by the government and other developers. And with a few parking spots labelled for handicapped or for GSM residents only, who receives the money for violations? Of course, the government does pay for those restrooms and should get the fees for violators, but ultimately, how is this different from anyone taking over any neighborhoods green/communal space with no restitution?
    • The C/U issue comes into it only in the fact that all other communities surrounding Seagrove seem to have maintained their deeded access points differently and pushed out the public, which forces so many new neighborhoods without any deeded points to deliver their masses to GSM's beachfront. Again, is this an issue of wealth having more power with our commisioners? (GSM has a number of homes worth considerably less than the 30A average.) And the ghost chairs are killing everyone, Seriously, that has to change;the idea that a business can stake a portion of the beach "just in case" someone might pay for it later is ludicrous. Why does GSM's beach get an unfair share of these businesses when these other communities don't allow them at all?
    • I like the idea of vendors for food, but again, who gets paid by the airstreams all along 30A in Seaside? Seaside of course. HOw is this land that was deemed GSM's get to be used as if it is public, where does the money go for those permits?
    Anyway, consider these issues instead of assuming GSM is just trying to be like all the other giant neighborhoods along 30A that dominate and claim the dunes and often the beaches for themselves. For 100 years, GSM has NOT chased off tourists or non GSM folks from using its access points nor its beaches, and look where it got them. . .in the position of possibly losing their own use. ALL Walton County citizens and Tourists should find this shameful.
     

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