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Quit claim of beach front land

Discussion in 'Local Government and Groups' started by Beach days, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Comber

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    I was at a walkover in sea grove this weekend and overheard a beach front homeowner arguing with a beach goer. The homeowner stated they paid taxes on beach land and it was theirs. At that time the the beach guy mentioned that was because the homeowner quick claimed the beach for a 100.00 . The property was at the end of San Juan ave. the home owner said that was right. I wonder how much of the beach has been given away for that price? I looked on tax Page and that's what it says also.i also seen where a judge in 1994 stated it was gulf shore manor beach for perpetual use of sunbathing and recreation.from Dothan street to pelayo.
     

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  2. EZ4144

    EZ4144 Beach Lover

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    How much for state park beach?
     
  3. ShallowsNole

    ShallowsNole Beach Fanatic

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    Quit-claims are generally for no or very little money. Unfortunately, quiet titles and quit-claims have closed a number of accesses to the beach and made public land "private." Headland Avenue in Old Seagrove and Stallworth are two that come to mind.
    However, Homeowner is wrong about paying taxes. Their property is appraised based on linear feet or width on their property, which is the same on the bluff and the beach, and waterfront is appraised at a higher rate, with some market value thrown in. However, the sandy beach is NOT included as acreage on their property tax bill - as it is unusable for building. They pay taxes on their home and the parcel of property it sits on, but not past the CCL. No matter what their legal description says.
    Homeowner sounds like the lady who puckered her lips up at me while I was notarizing CU affadavits at Seagrove Village Market last weekend.
     
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  4. stone packard

    stone packard Beach Comber

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    I always thought that quitclaim deeds were worthless in most jurisdictions except maybe in places like the People's Republic of Massachusetts.
     
  5. Shannon Lince

    Shannon Lince Beach Lover

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    That's just not true on the property taxes. Whatever premium was paid on that entire property by the purchaser at the time of purchase is factored into the property tax bill through the fair market value calculation and it forever stays at that rate. This is the way Florida works. The purchase price paid for the entire parcel is factored into the property tax bill. And it's a very poor argument to make to suggest no one paid a premium to own to the MHWL --- so yes, taxes are paid on the entire parcel year over year including the dry sand.

    What does not occur is any assessment of any part of un-buildable land for property tax increases, that's true across the entire state, wetlands, common areas, any unbuildable land is never assessed --- until the property is sold again. Then whatever the purchase price is paid at the time for the entire piece of land is worked into the property tax on the property.

    You heard a number of BFO's say in the public hearing yesterday they purchased to the MHWL.

    So this is using a half truth to come to an incorrect conclusion.

    There are people paying $50,000 even $100,000 a year in property taxes on their parcel to the MHWL that is not disputable. So to say people aren't paying property taxes for the beach rings hollow and the sales data doesn't support that idea.

    Shannon
     
  6. EZ4144

    EZ4144 Beach Lover

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    Nice try. Convoluted logic. :nono:
     
  7. lazin&drinkin

    lazin&drinkin Beach Lover

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    The truth often is more complex than simply declaring day is night. There was nothing convoluted about that exposition of facts. Your reply, on the other hand, exemplifies convoluted logic, i.e., illogic.
     
  8. EZ4144

    EZ4144 Beach Lover

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    :spin:
     
  9. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Comber

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    For you to look at
     

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  10. jodiFL

    jodiFL Beach Fanatic

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    I dont hear any of the BFOs saying anything about that $5 million McMansion they built that sleeps 54 people (so they can get even more rent) being factored in to that tax bill. Guarantee those little one story block houses
    dont pay near the tax on the same size lot.
     
  11. Shannon Lince

    Shannon Lince Beach Lover

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    I knew this predictable response was coming. So, let's take this "no property tax" to the thousands of property owners who have deeded beach but do not live on the beach. Are you suggesting that people are paying $400-600 per square foot for a home on a postage stamp sized lot, 2,3,4 blocks away from the beach and that has no impact on property taxes and that deeded beach access has no impact on taxes?

    Does the amenity of a property affect property taxes? Sales data says yes, appraisers say yes, because through the higher market value paid the property taxes are higher. So, I've completely removed the dry sand assessment on a parcel from the equation and still proven that property taxes are being paid for beach property.

    What else you got?

    Shannon
    Keep digging - eventually you will get to China.

    Common property is not taxed anywhere in Walton county and not in most of Florida counties - BECAUSE the taxes are apportioned to the owners which have the rights to the common property. Common property is never sold/purchased (in the context of a built out subdivision or condo complex). This has nothing specific to do with beach property. Check every HOA in Walton county --- common property not taxed.

    Shannon
     
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  12. Shannon Lince

    Shannon Lince Beach Lover

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    I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

    Shannon
     
  13. Shannon Lince

    Shannon Lince Beach Lover

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    I'm trying to figure out what you are missing Beach Days when you read these chain of title events. No one "quit claimed any deed for $100" in any way you are suggesting.

    First National Bank and Trust sued the defendants "Manus and Fitzgerald, et al" (and owners of Gulf Shore Manor) over their perpetual easement to use the property for (bathing and swimming and other recreational uses) belonging to First National Bank and Trust.

    The county had already passed as resolution renouncing and disclaiming any public right to the property in a declaration dated March 28, 1978. The easement does NOT apply to the public but to the owners of Gulf Shore Manor. The court judgement clearly states this fact.

    Manus and Fitzgerald won. That's the court case "Final Judgement". The $100 is meaningless on your screen.

    Then First National Bank and Trust transferred the property to "Cinema Incorporated" in 1997 (probably part of a larger financial package or business deal we don't know about). It was basically a transfer of title for vacant land. Nothing was actually bought for $100.

    Then in 2006 Cinema transferred title back to First National Bank and Trust who still owns it today. Again, we have no idea why, nor do we care, must have been a side business deal that is known only to themselves.

    No beach was purchased for $100. No beach has been "given away" (taken from the public) in this instance.

    Shannon
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  14. Jenksy

    Jenksy Beach Fanatic

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    The condescension is getting might thick around here.

    You peons don't know jack! :whack:
     
  15. Shannon Lince

    Shannon Lince Beach Lover

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    What's more condescending, going around telling everyone in our community that beach property owners purchased their property for $100 in an "illegal scheme" ... or correcting the fairy tale with the actual facts?

    And that's your quote: "You peons don't know jack!" Not mine - don't put words in my mouth, never said it and never even implied it.

    What I will do is quote a good movie line "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" Quote me on that.

    Shannon
     
  16. Beach days

    Beach days Beach Comber

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    Can you show the original Selling price. for the beach lots. Or did someone with a fancy pen and paper ,make up new boundaries. And call there own. Just because you own the lot above the beach should not give you ownership of the beach.
     
  17. Shannon Lince

    Shannon Lince Beach Lover

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    It's impossible to do anything like you describe in the state of Florida (or anywhere in the United States). Florida is a recording state.

    Can I show the selling price for the First National Bank? - perhaps but with something like this it gets into a bit of work because the properties were just transferred between two owners for the minimum transfer fee ($100). I don't know what that would prove.

    If you are talking about Dune Allen / Vizcaya --- those records are not on the waltonpa.com --- they would be contained in the official records. I know that Dune Allen sold a number of lots with a mortgage to buyers --- and that info should be there. Let me look...

    Okay, Dune-Allen Inc. self-financed just about every lot I'm looking at. This is how they did it. They transfer the deed for $10. --- but then enter a separate mortgage agreement for the lot with the buyer. If you look at for example the record of "satisfaction" of the mortgage for the lot of the "Nobles" --- they paid Dune-Allen Inc. $45,700 for the lot in 1978- but if you look at the DEED transfer it shows $10 because no money changed hands - Dune-Allen inc. financed the sale. You can find the mortgage at book 155 page 49 - which shows the lot being bought for $45,700 and financed by Dune-Allen Inc.

    If you want to dig on this - let me know - I'll show you the searches to find these official documents. I'm going to:
    Home Page --- go to Public records, official records. Search by name and put "Dune allen" and then start going through the documents. One document may reference a book and page number - you can then do a search by book, page --- and look at that document.

    I'm sorry, I just don't see what the contention is or the conspiracy. I don't get it? Who has been telling you all this stuff?

    Shannon
     

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    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  18. ShallowsNole

    ShallowsNole Beach Fanatic

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    The Tringas family that owns First National Bank and Trust also at one time owned the old movie theater in downtown Fort Walton and the Palm Theater, that used to be on Eglin Parkway. Therefore, Cinema, Inc.
    Can't believe those who know it all didn't know that. I knew it, and I would have only been 15 years old in 1978.
     
  19. Shannon Lince

    Shannon Lince Beach Lover

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    Always best to stick to things you actually know vs. spreading someone else's manure. My daddy taught me that lesson early in life well before 1978.

    Shannon
     
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  20. ShallowsNole

    ShallowsNole Beach Fanatic

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    You apparently have no clue that I used to work for the Clerk of Court, very closely with the Property Appraiser, I have been here all of my life, and I own waterfront property. I'm fairly well-versed in beach ownership.
    Again, your "premium" is based on unfettered access to the beach, and the unimpeded sight, sound and smell of the gulf. The original developers of our beachfront communities - who I remember, as most were friends with my parents - often fashioned their deeds to the MHWL because, back then, there was no CCL and the MHWL was used in order to protect those who bought beachfront from anything being built between the edge of the bluff and the Gulf. There was no intent to block the beach for recreational use. People who owned beachfront in years past understood the spirit of the beach, and never dreamed of impeding access and use of any portion of the beach.

    Yes, your tax bill is based in part on what you paid for the property. But the sand itself is not an issue, as the sand does nothing that a home facing the Gulf doesn't already do - except make elitists believe the beach is theirs and theirs alone. Your assessment is based on linear width "front feet" of the bluff.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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