Repeal bill filed to repeal HB 631 In the Florida house of representatives

Discussion in 'Local Government and Groups' started by Dave Rauschkolb, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. jodiFL

    jodiFL Beach Fanatic

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    And from the FLCPR notification...."FlaCPR today announced the owners of 570 beachfront parcels of the 1,194 parcels sued by the county, which includes individuals, associations and condominiums, have now challenged the Walton County customary use lawsuit. Interventions increased by more than 200 interventions since February 18, 2019 and these interventions represent over 3,500 owners in individual, associations and condos combined,"
    seems like someones number dont add up.... which one is it?
     
  2. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    Rg, your questions are like the mirror (I will explain if you need me to) that I asked you about earlier so why not you answer this question: What parcels can lay claim to containing the dry sand on the beach for the purpose of exclusive use?

    The law that created this mess is also creating a money pit because neither side will likely accept the lower court decision. Only people with money and power (and those that are mislead) would prefer this to compromising the principle of exclusive dry sandy beach use. Money and power believe they can bully the system, the people and our natural resources to conform to their principle of exclusion. What is interesting is that they have mislead themselves into believing in their self importance to the point of having some warped (rg's word) mandate of entitlement. In the big picture life is short and you can't take it with you. Happiness does not come from what you think you own but what you give back. We will all find this out eventually including myself...
     
  3. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    According to the State of Florida, ALL deeded properties that include boundaries that extend from the toe of the dune to the MWHL (if defined as such in their deed) are able to exclude people, just like it has been since Florida became a State.

    Your turn, name ONE deeded property that was Public property that became Private Property as a result of HB 631.

    A JUDCIAL action is required to remove property rights in the State of Florida (not the BCC changing their mind in 2016 to take it with no compromise, no matter what the cost). And the BCC must prove that it is ancient, reasonable, without interruption, and without dispute. The lawsuit is one year old, millions of dollars have been spent legal fees, and the county STILL has not provided sufficient notice (sufficient to Judge Green) to each property owner. With this progress, the estimate of the FBFA lawyer of 10 years and 50,000,000 dollars might be on the low side.
     
  4. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    SCJ, thank you! You answered both questions! Your answer is that you believe ALL beach property with deeds that describe the boundaries to the mhwl is private and able to exclude people. Before HB 631 bfo's did not exclude people from the dry sandy beach. There is much evidence to support this and available for your review in the court documents submitted by the county. So those parcels that had boundary descriptions to the mhwl always had a public use. You power brokers wanted to change that use from public to private and used that power to pass HB 631. The evidence is in many of your post where you indicated that you will no longer be inclined to share the dry sandy beach as a result of HB 631. That one little word...USE. Public to Private. Shared to Exclusive. That is what you finally admit to. No reason to hide your purpose anymore. All these post to rile people up instead of admitting your purpose. Never was about 30A legacy or civility or community and definitely not about shared enjoyment of the dry sandy beach. It has always been about use...before Florida was a State...after Florida was a State...forever and ever amen...
     
  5. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    I have looked at the evidence and the State of Florida believes deeded property has Private Property Rights. The State of Florida Property Rights are published on the Walton County Web Site and the right is exclude people is a Key Right. I believe it also, but most importantly the State of Florida believes it, and that is what makes it True.

    Other Court Documents, such as the Edgewater lawsuit (2008) clearly show people absolutely were not permitted on Private Property AGAINST the will of the Property Owner. Other evidence, such as occurred in July 2002, when Mark Austin used a public access walkover to get to a stretch of Dune Allen beach and the property owner at the time, William Houser, objected to Austin's presence on "his" private property and called police, who gave Austin a summons for trespassing shows this is nothing new and not created by HB 631.

    Also there are NO documents in Exhibit B provided by the county showing anyone was on Private Property with unlimited people and unlimited equipment AGAINST the will of the property owner.

    Here is a typical Exhibit B by "Steve" that does not indicate any parcel id's (could be a Public Beach) and no indication of forced occupation against the will of the property owner. In addition the activity is "fishing, bathing, swimming", which is all permitted on the State owned coast and nothing to do with Private Property. If there are any that provide documentation of occupation against the will of the property owner will you please post a copy of it.


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    Questions answered and facts provided.

    Can you provide ANY parcel numbers of ANY public property that became private property as a result of HB 635?
     
  6. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    The boundaries on beaches are word descriptions not physical boundaries. Therefore parcel numbers have no meaning to a beach user. Let's say that you are a bfo and throw your frisbee and it eventually lands on the white sandy beach somewhere. There are no boundaries. The white sandy beach is the same everywhere. So you retrieve your frisbee no matter where it lands. It is the same with beach users. The beach is continuous. The sand is dynamic and flows seaward, landward and up and down the beach. The sand where your frisbee touches down might be behind another bfo's but Lets be honest, you would retrieve your frisbee without a moments thought about where it landed. You will never be able to prove ownership of dry sandy beach in our judicial system imo. The fact that you keep trying is a testament to why it was necessary for the county to make the declaration of public use.
     
  7. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    The boundaries on beach properties are not just word descriptions but legally defined boundaries that are fixed each year, measurable, can be surveyed and marked. Therefore, parcel numbers do have legally meaning and are protected by the State of Florida.

    Please see FLORIDA STATUTES CHAPTER 177, PART II COASTAL MAPPING ACT section 177.28 for more information.

    There is no such thing as a “frisbee law” that permits unlimited people with unlimited frisbees to occupy private property against the will of the property owner. If you think one does exist, please reference the Florida Statutes...

    Myth of Public Beach becoming Private Property due to HB 631 has been busted. The myth of Property Boundaries can not be determined has been busted. We are not a socialist country and the local county commissionaires cannot “take property rights” to allow unlimited people and equipment on private property against the will of the property owner to chase billions of tourist’s dollars without judicial approval.
     
  8. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    Scj, you have two things two prove in a court of law. 1. Do you have full ownership of the dry sandy beach from the toe of the dunes to the mhwl. Ownership is the key word. Is ownership defined by a word description or a long history of use? Precedent will be a consideration. Political propaganda not so much. You believe the State of Florida will support the word description over use. I believe that use is the basis for property law. Eventually a higher court will decide. 2. Is it possible for a private party to claim any ownership of the dry sandy beach? Beach sand is almost fluid. It shifts constantly. It is not normal real estate as Alex Miles has stated. The sand behind your beach moves around from high surf and is completely relocated during a storm. It does not stay in place so who actually owns it? Imo the State of Florida likely owns the dry sandy beach. Your desire for private exclusive beach will eventually force the State of Florida to make a declaration of public use.

    This will take a long time for any court to navigate. HB 631 was all politics. The power brokers thought it would be a slam dunk in controlling yet another natural resource. Your purpose is to exclude all people from the beach. Your group has left no doubt of your purpose. Now you have energized the citizens of the State of Florida which will energize citizens across this great country which was founded on democratic principles. This energy is just getting started because this resource is very important to the people. The people majority have power AND there is NO proof of mob behavior on this issue. When your group push this narrative it proves that you are all about political propaganda and nothing about civility and respect for the people. Both sides have made mistakes in communication because of emotion but there is not and will not be any mob behavior. Autocracy and the exclusion-ist beliefs that come from those with elite power and wealth has been exposed. Your posts are part of that exposure. If I were a bfo and I wanted more privacy on the beach I would have negotiated a settlement with the county. But, you and yours chose to push your agenda of complete exclusion. I am not the only one made aware of how elite wealth and power believes to superior to the people and superior to nature by your continuing posts of this superiority. It is all right here in this forum for all to see...
     
  9. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    Actually there is NOTHING that I have to prove in court, it is the BCC that MUST PROVE IN COURT that forced occupation of unlimited people with unlimited equipment against the will of the property owner in the State of Florida is ancient, reasonable, without interruption, and without dispute.
     
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  10. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    Scj, I like the idea of a "frisbee law" but the thought was that you would be honest in following through with an explanation of beach "use". I understand why you would deflect. I also understand why you use the word "socialist" when you become more desperate. It explains how connected you are to politics and disconnected from real people who share the beach. I realize that you have a job to do here and it is not to compromise, negotiate or listen to anyone. I have listened to your arguments and respect them but you and yours have exposed something much bigger than the desire to exclude people from the beach. That something is exactly why our founders formed a government that is based on checks and balances. That something is an abuse of power. In the past I have given people like you and yours a free pass because of my political beliefs. You have opened my eyes!
     
  11. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    And you have opened the eyes of many! I am glad you respect the arguments, but most importantly you should respect the laws. That is exactly why our founders formed a government to protect the rights of private ownership that can not be TAKEN without judicial approval. Checks and balances. The BCC was abusing the power trying to take without judicial approval.

    It is the BCC that MUST PROVE IN COURT that forced occupation of unlimited people with unlimited equipment against the will of the property owner in the State of Florida is ancient, reasonable, without interruption, and without dispute.

    You have stated there is evidence that the BCC has presented for it. I can not find any in the court documents, nor can find where forced occupation against the will of the property owner without judicial approval has ever occurred in the State of Florida.
     
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  12. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    Scj, if you have nothing to prove in court then why are you here? The affirmation process allows you to dispute the declaration of public customary use by the local government entity? Why spend all that money to dispute if you have nothing to prove? Apparently you are not the lawyer that I thought you might be.

    There you go using words like forced occupation again and again. Propaganda is just not working anymore. Walton county is following the law that gives you the opportunity to dispute public customary use. I would rethink your statement that you do not have to prove "nothing in court". In addition the county only has to prove evidence of public customary use. They have evidence. Lots of evidence. If you are saying that the court will disregard that evidence then you might also want to rethink that as well. I am now wondering if you have ever even thrown a frisbee on the beach :)
     
  13. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    It is the BCC that MUST PROVE IN COURT that forced occupation of unlimited people with unlimited equipment against the will of the property owner in the State of Florida is ancient, reasonable, without interruption, and without dispute.
     
  14. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    Again and again. This law requires a court to determine if the county has evidence of public customary use. It is an "affirmation" process. Your job as a hired gun (Fbb's or Rg's words) is to confuse the bfo's into believing this is about property rights. You have succeeded in that endeavor and now they will spend millions of dollars on having the power to exclude good people from what you call your private exclusive beach. The people behind the bill was hoping that a local government entity would not have the means to execute a long court process. Those people were wrong. The county is doing the right thing. Your no compromise approach left them no choice. I think the whole thing is fascinatingly dramatized and politicized and just plain abuse of power. All of our eyes are open and this is not going away with a simple "get off my beach" attitude. You still have a chance to rethink it...
     
  15. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    The people behind the law suit "Mr. No Compromise no matter what the cost" convinced the BCC that "only a dozen BPO's would object" and threw Bill Fletcher under the bus for the BCC election because he dared to use the dirty "C" word (screenshots available) thought the BPO's would not stand up the BCC. Those people were wrong. I agree, this is an example of abuse of power by the BCC and the people behind them to chase billions of tourists dollars at the expense of the BPO's. It has been over one year and the Plaintiff Attorney, who is a making a boat load of money off the county on a daily basis whether there is progress or not, has yet to satisfy Judge Green that he properly notify the defendants. The BCC still has a chance to rethink it...
     
  16. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    Scj, if we respect each other and truly have these two polar opposite opinions or beliefs then where is the truth? We can't both be right. Agreed? I think most people would be a little skeptical of someone who hides their purpose, hides their identity and then goes on an attack of "the people". Many of your group have a low opinion of the people and a high opinion of themselves. As for as myself I can be wrong. I have been wrong. I started reading and posting on this issue and was on your side. I was very wrong. Your group falls into a category of never wrong and everyone else just wants something that you have. Kind of like you have some type of mandated entitlement to be right which was eye opening. Your group have one set of linear facts or one box from which to gather facts and dismiss EVERYTHING else. I understand conservative principles and live my life by most of them but when you get on the extreme side of those principles it starts to lose a connection with humanity. Tolerance, kindness, generosity, fairness, sharing, inclusion and equality are very important principles to humanity. The more I engaged with your group the more I learned about elitism and autocracy. One member of your group has a television show. I watched it. There was a guest who had written a book about happiness. The guest believed that happiness does not come from ownership of things. He went on to say that happiness comes from the principles related to and connected to humanity. This one box, this one principle of exclusion is not the truth that we all seek. It is interesting that the member of your group that I am referring to seems to value one principle over everything else but then had a guest that says no that will not take you to where you want to be in this life. The problem with politics is that it divides us and we lose our sense of humanity. We start to thinking that the other side just wants what we have and are coming from a weak emotion like envy or jealousy or entitlement. I don't think like that at all. I don't think the "majority" of the people think like that at all. There are bad apples in all groups of people but that should not create a fear that all people are bad apples. So I say that there is NO downside to giving people the benefit of the doubt. We the people are not a mob and in this case the majority of the people believe in public beaches. So, back to finding the truth in all this. If I am wrong and you are right then why not be open and honest about your purpose in this forum. Why do ALL those who support exclusion hide their identity? There is nothing to fear but fear itself...
     
  17. Dave Rauschkolb

    Dave Rauschkolb Beach Fanatic

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    Deep appreciation to Commissioner Tony Anderson for proposing a letter of support to the County Commissioners in support of the repeal bill HB6063 and Senate Bill1680 that will reinstate Customary Use to our beaches. This resolution passed in the County Commission at last nights hearing unanimously. Thank you to all the Commissioners who voted in favor of this and maintain their commitment to restoring our beaches to their rightful order. Below is my statement read to the Commissioners last night.

    Commissioners, I come to you as a beachfront property owner, a 34 year beachfront business owner, the chairman of the nonprofit, Florida beaches for all created to restore customary use to our beaches and as a father of two young girls, three and 10. Two young girls who have much fewer beaches to tickle their toes in without threat of arrest on our own Walton county beaches.

    HOUSE bill 631 was written by some of the very lawyers who are representing Beach front owners and has empowered them to exclude and eject good Walton county citizens and visitors from our beaches. The BILL and subsequent Florida statute was written to be difficult, cumbersome, complicated and expensive for any county to pursue the affirmation of customary use on their beaches. The hundreds of thousands of dollars that the county has already spent and will continue to spend in this endeavor is unknown. This legislation and law appears to be a project that by design is a project to never end and every day that passes is an endangerment to our economy, our quality of life and a community that is civil and welcoming as a place to live, visit and raise children.

    Commissioners, I very much appreciate this resolution you are to vote on and I very much would like to encourage you to include in your resolution the engaging of two County paid lobbyists to do everything they can do to work on the county’s behalf to support the passage of HB6063 in the Florida house by Representative Evan Jenne of Broward County and SB1680 in the Senate by Senator Lori Berman of Palm Beach County to repeal Fl Statute: 103.035 that effectively places no trespassing signs and gives the right to exclude non beachfront owners from large portions of 26 miles of our Walton County beaches.

    The bill Representative Jenne has filed is a full repeal of the statute and his offices have confirmed that he is dedicated to making whatever modifications and amendments are necessary to guarantee full and free access to the sandy parts and the wet parts of all of our beaches for the Public's Customary Use. This, effectively reinstating the rightfully passed County Ordinance that guarantees Customary Use of our beaches.
    I also ask that you enlist the support of House representative Brad Drake and Senate Representative George Gainer in this process. I really can’t imagine either of them not supporting this repeal legislation and they will need your support and help.

    (I find it odd that it takes A South Florida Legislator to take the initiative to draft and file a bill to save our Walton County beaches when we would expect our own House Representative to do so.)

    BUT

    In any case passing this letter of support resolution should be all the encouragement House Representative Drake and Senator Gainer should need to passionately embrace and do the determined and diligent work to restore our beaches to Customary Use. Thank You.
    Dave Rauschkolb Chairman Florida Beaches For All

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  18. James Bentwood

    James Bentwood Beach Fanatic

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    Well said Dave. Thanks for standing up for Beach lovers and congrats on your success.
     
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  19. Stone Cold J

    Stone Cold J Beach Lover

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    The TRUTH is each individual private property owner has always had control of who, how many, and how equipment can be on their property. It has always been that way. Even in the 1950's and 1960's, if you did not rent from Eric Allen (Dune Allen Beach) then you could not be on his property against his will. Same for the Edgewater properties. Do you think the FBFA has told Suzanne that they only own the view and NOT the deeded property? The State of Florida has never permitted forced occupation of unlimited people with unlimited equipment on private property against the will of the property owner. God willing, this will never change for the USA and a key focus of the founding fathers (thus the taking clause in the constitution).

    The truth is the same today. The State of Florida and Walton County recognizes the deeded property boundaries and Florida Property Rights. Until 2016, so did the BCC.

    There is absolutely no "ban" from the beach. Each parcel owner can determine their own criteria for guests. Some may restrict to people renting the property, some may restrict the number of guests and or equipment, some may restrict the dates or hours, and a few may not want anyone one their property. That is the way it has been done since anyone on this forum has been alive.

    This was never an issue until the volume of tourists grew exponentially and the BCC did not keep up with additional purchases and restrooms for tourists. The Private Property owners do not owe a free "day camping" spot on their private deeded property against their will. Many rent their properties (with private beach) to offset the millions of dollars and taxes they have invested. This wasn't an issue when we had less than 1,000,000 people per year (read the affidavits) but definitely a problem with 3 million tourists and critical at 4 million. It will only get worst for 4.1 million, 4.2 million, 5 million, etc. Even the State Parks limit the total number so the infrastructure available (parking, restrooms). We need to LIMIT DENSITY so the fragile ecosystem is not ruined for our future generations. Why are we letting the BCC steal property so the developers and businessmen can make billions at the expense of the private property owners? What happens when they increase the building height above 50 ft and allow high rise condos? How long before the people who come here for the food and fun and willing to spend money find somewhere else due to over crowding by people who are bussed in from other areas and only spending their money at the small-mart or Publics and leave their trash on the beach? What happens when our shops and businesses are replaced with t-shirt shops and tattoo parlors (look at neighboring counties if you don't think that will happen).

    Time to get WOKE. No public property became private because of HB 631. Follow the money and read the 2016 BCC Special Meeting Minutes and the depositions. This is ALL about chasing billions of tourists dollars.
     
  20. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    Scj, yes population has increased and humans are harming our environment including the huge concrete and steel structures being built for exclusive views and enjoyment on natures protective dune systems. It that not a fact. Is that not a truth. Hypocrisy is not helping your dramatic dialogue. We all have to expect our elected officials to be responsible at managing and adjusting our infrastructure. I noticed you used God as a reference. Do you believe that God has mandated you with the power to exclude people from the beach? You also used our forefathers as a reference. Do you believe every one of those brilliant people who formed our government mandated you with the power to exclude people from the beach? If you answer yes then I believe I am much closer to the truth. If you answer no and we continue to be honest and respectful then we can solve these issues you speak of with civility and common sense and creativity. That is what humanity is all about. Inclusion. Population increase is inevitable. We have to find ways to live together, work together and find some tolerance for our differences. The truth is not in your principle of exclusion of these beaches for a few wealthy multimillionaires. The truth is in humanity. Since you brought God into this discussion I will bring in Jesus the son. Did Jesus preach about exclusion or tolerance and forgiveness for those you disagree with (Matthew 6:14). Awaken my friend and feel the warmth of the sun reflecting from the dry white sand as you throw the frisbee and retrieve your frisbee no matter where it lands in that sand...sorry but your dramatic dialogue inspires me :)
     

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