America slides deeper into depression as Wall Street revels

I'd blame congress more than Obama, although he fails on leadership. A stimulus that injected more into long term pet projects than the economy, the constant propping up of existing bubbles, side tracked on healthcare, dysfunctional FED and Treasury run by the same people who got us into this mess... the list of mistakes and bad policy decisions runs long.

I am however pretty happy with Obama's handling of terrorism, except of course this whole crazy thing where we are trying prisoners of war as criminals in civil court.

Generally he had a tough job ahead of him, he did his best, but his experience and knowledge of economic theory were lacking. Honestly, none of the contenders probably would have done much better. McCain would have made similar mistakes.

IMO, we should have elected Ron Paul. He was the only candidate qualified for the job at hand.

I smell a huge market crash coming in 2010 as the disconnect between mainsteet and wall street is the widest ever. stocks like cat tractor and deere are up 300% in 10 months not real far from 2007 highs and there business is down 80%. all obama's stimulus has gone to greedy bankers and brokers who have jammed them ins tocks instead of loaning them out. i forsee a huge social backlash against the banks and wall street as the haves and have nots have never been greater

You are already starting to see it w/ the "put your money in a community bank" and "pay with cash" movements.

Our problems startred about 8 years ago. I don't believe it is Obama's fault.
Yes we got some hard times coming, the worst ain't here yet. The problems come from a wealthy upper class that no longer see the benefit of investing in america. The policies of the bush/chenney years made it much more profitable to take their money out of the US.
We import way too many goods we could make here.

Our problems startred about 8 years ago. I don't believe it is Obama's fault.
Yes we got some hard times coming, the worst ain't here yet. The problems come from a wealthy upper class that no longer see the benefit of investing in america. The policies of the bush/chenney years made it much more profitable to take their money out of the US.
We import way too many goods we could make here.

You're an intelligent young man, but I beg to differ. Greed and a sense of entitlement was what got us here. Goods are manufactured cheaper outside the US. They do not have the unions like we have here to contend with. I'd be interested in hearing from you what goods we could manufacture here that are less expensive than abroad.

I say this from experience. Just this weekend we had an old grammar school friend over for dinner who has been with his union for 20+ years earning 6 figures for a job that really warranted half his pay for the experience and schooling required. I know this because my sister owned a manufacturing head hunting firm and engineers in high demand earned the same as him. he was laid off and it took him almost a year to accept a position paying half what he earned before. Now he is drowning in his own drool from drinking too much homemade wine because he is bitter. This is one of many stories happening right now in addition to people realizing they assumed too much debt load.

Our problems didn't start a few years ago and they cannot be blamed on one political party.

Greed, a sense of entitlement, a lack of personal responsibility, and no long term planning are what got us here.

Common sense, cowboying up, making unpopular changes, and hard work can still get us out.

You're an intelligent young man, but I beg to differ. Greed and a sense of entitlement was what got us here. Goods are manufactured cheaper outside the US. They do not have the unions like we have here to contend with. I'd be interested in hearing from you what goods we could manufacture here that are less expensive than abroad.

I say this from experience. Just this weekend we had an old grammar school friend over for dinner who has been with his union for 20+ years earning 6 figures for a job that really warranted half his pay for the experience and schooling required. I know this because my sister owned a manufacturing head hunting firm and engineers in high demand earned the same as him. he was laid off and it took him almost a year to accept a position paying half what he earned before. Now he is drowning in his own drool from drinking too much homemade wine because he is bitter. This is one of many stories happening right now in addition to people realizing they assumed too much debt load.

Mango I beg to differ with you. It isn't the fault of the unions that manufacturing jobs went overseas, it's the fault of manufacturers. If you got rid of every union in the country you still won't find anyone willing to work for the wages paid to most foreign workers. There are some jobs lost that will never come back because of the cheap labor without benefits or protection offered in the US. It would be unfair to ask any American worker to compete with the low standard of living many workers overseas must endure.

I'm sorry about your friends suffering but it was probably the union that helped him stay on the job for 20+years. Had he not been a member he could have been let go on a whim to hire some youngster for half his pay years ago. Merchants, lawyers, doctors, manufacturers and others form trade organizations to promote and protect their business interests why shouldn't workers? I have no data on the subject but I would imagine that engineers belonging to a union are paid more than non union engineers. One can always find someone to work for less, this doesn't mean the higher paid person isn't worth the money.

Remember, when someone offers to pay you minimum wage what they are really saying is "I would love to pay you less but it is against state and federal law."

Mango I beg to differ with you. It isn't the fault of the unions that manufacturing jobs went overseas, it's the fault of manufacturers. If you got rid of every union in the country you still won't find anyone willing to work for the wages paid to most foreign workers. There are some jobs lost that will never come back because of the cheap labor without benefits or protection offered in the US. It would be unfair to ask any American worker to compete with the low standard of living many workers overseas must endure.

I'm sorry about your friends suffering but it was probably the union that helped him stay on the job for 20+years. Had he not been a member he could have been let go on a whim to hire some youngster for half his pay years ago. Merchants, lawyers, doctors, manufacturers and others form trade organizations to promote and protect their business interests why shouldn't workers? I have no data on the subject but I would imagine that engineers belonging to a union are paid more than non union engineers. One can always find someone to work for less, this doesn't mean the higher paid person isn't worth the money.

Remember, when someone offers to pay you minimum wage what they are really saying is "I would love to pay you less but it is against state and federal law."

No, my friend kept his position for 20 years simply because his father was a important man in the construction industry. Plain and simple. He's still in the union, just decided that any job was better than none after one year. Non- Union Employers wouldn't consider him, even though he interviewed with full knowledge of the salary level as less. This is because of the inherent attitude prevalent amongst union workers.

Unions initially were successful in controlling the exploitation of labor workers, but it seems over time that the reverse has happened. They made expenses so much higher than non union workers, so yes, goods were eventually sourced out abroad to lower paying workers. A mentality developed to try to give as little work as possible. Things may have been very different had union workers been given stock shares and incenticized to produce a superior product over foreign manufacturers.

The presence of unions is not why jobs went overseas - but in many cases the greed and demands of unions made it an easy choice.

Like in many other cases, what started as a good idea got perverted and became a runaway juggernaut w/ no common sense.

When you combine a financial environment that is only concerned with the current quarter's bottom line with a tax/regulatory/labor environment designed to discourage business, off-shoring and out-sourcing is the result.

No, my friend kept his position for 20 years simply because his father was a important man in the construction industry. Plain and simple. He's still in the union, just decided that any job was better than none after one year. Non- Union Employers wouldn't consider him, even though he interviewed with full knowledge of the salary level as less. This is because of the inherent attitude prevalent amongst union workers.

Unions initially were successful in controlling the exploitation of labor workers, but it seems over time that the reverse has happened. They made expenses so much higher than non union workers, so yes, goods were eventually sourced out abroad to lower paying workers. A mentality developed to try to give as little work as possible. Things may have been very different had union workers been given stock shares and incenticized to produce a superior product over foreign manufacturers.

I have had much a much different experience with union members than you have. I've had some dealings with the construction trade unions and found they were much more knowledgeable and skilled at their craft than non union workers. The contractors who hired the union members knew they would get their moneys worth because of the training union members received. I was non union and quickly realized I wasn't half as skilled as I thought (damn I hate to admit that). I soon left and persued other interests. I have no knowledge of your friends case but some non union companies will not hire union members for fear they will stir up a sh!t pot among their workers

I could care less if someone joins a union or not, my only time in a union was for three months at the age of sixteen while working at a food store sacking groceries. I didn't like paying the union dues because there wasn't much skill involved in the work and I was paid minimum wage. (I never did understand what the union advantage was in grocery sacking).

If unions become extinct my concern is the workers will once again find themselves with no representation which will be a green light for the companies to exploit them as happened in the past.

I still hope your friend once again finds his way in life.

If unions become extinct my concern is the workers will once again find themselves with no representation which will be a green light for the companies to exploit them as happened in the past.

Who represents the supervisor to the Union worker, No one.

When a worker with less training, experience and education makes more than his boss, has better benefits, and would have to kill someone to get fired, something is wrong with this system.

Don't you think that our current legal system makes it unlikely that a major exploitation can take place?

IMO class action and civil suits have made that unlikely and we also have more labor & safety laws.

Agree that education/different training levels in skilled trades who work individually are one good example of a positive reason for unions, but I question their effectiveness and contribution to the more general workplace/salaried positions in the modern world, as at some point unions just become one more self-serving bureaucracy.

My teachers were frequently frustrated by their union - the kids' education was not considered during negotiations and many supposed union "benefits" could have been paid for out of the dues they had to pay................and the cost of the spiffy union headquarters building.

My father was constantly frustrated by the union protecting some deadbeat w/ a lack of work ethic and making dumb rules.

Who represents the supervisor to the Union worker, No one.

When a worker with less training, experience and education makes more than his boss, has better benefits, and would have to kill someone to get fired, something is wrong with this system.

Sadly one of the worst positions in a business. The lowest rung on the ladder up and not one of the workers.

Don't you think that our current legal system makes it unlikely that a major exploitation can take place?

IMO class action and civil suits have made that unlikely and we also have more labor & safety laws.

Agree that education/different training levels in skilled trades who work individually are one good example of a positive reason for unions, but I question their effectiveness and contribution to the more general workplace/salaried positions in the modern world, as at some point unions just become one more self-serving bureaucracy.

My teachers were frequently frustrated by their union - the kids' education was not considered during negotiations and many supposed union "benefits" could have been paid for out of the dues they had to pay................and the cost of the spiffy union headquarters building.

My father was constantly frustrated by the union protecting some deadbeat w/ a lack of work ethic and making dumb rules.

I'll say it very plainly, I'm not in a union, do not represent a union and have no relatives in unions, I just feel unions have a place. If the teachers are frustrated by their union they can vote themselves out of it. It doesn't appear the union is representing them so why put up with it? I would not judge all organizations by just one chapter and every company has at least one lazy assed deadbeat in both the the work force and management and it's sad they are protected, but this the exception not the rule.

Yes the current legal system has many protections in the form of legislation passed with the help of labor unions but when they are gone the industry lobbyists will more than likely rewrite these acts and the worker will be screwed again.

Teachers belong to unions for the legal protection - they know that if a student accuses them of inappropriate behavior, the school district will hang them out to dry, and that the school district can accuse them of any heinous thing and fire them with no hearing.

That's the only reason - I've heard many teachers say that the only reason they join the union is for the legal representation.

Video: Clusterf#@k to the Poor House - Wall Street Bonuses | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

Balsa wood and baby tears.

See why I watch him? :rofl:

Teachers belong to unions for the legal protection - they know that if a student accuses them of inappropriate behavior, the school district will hang them out to dry, and that the school district can accuse them of any heinous thing and fire them with no hearing.

That's the only reason - I've heard many teachers say that the only reason they join the union is for the legal representation.

It reads as if you are saying the teachers join the union because they fear they will not be treated fairly by the school district. Shouldn't they and every American worker place their trust and their careers in the hands of their employer knowing they will always do the right thing?

No, they are saying that teachers have to join the union because of how screwed up the legal system is.

Neither the teacher, nor the school district can afford the legal fees - even when they have done nothing wrong.

No, they are saying that teachers have to join the union because of how screwed up the legal system is.

Neither the teacher, nor the school district can afford the legal fees - even when they have done nothing wrong.

You could be correct but "hang them out to dry" and "accuse them of any heinous thing and fire them with no hearing" doesn't sound like a problem with the legal system, it sounds as if the school district doesn't give two sheets about their teachers. If you are correct you just made a great argument for unions.

If all unions ever did was offer legal advice, I doubt folks would have any problems with them. Which begs the question, what is it they are doing that's causing their ranks to shrink and the companies they service to go bankrupt? Do they not share some of the blame here or are they completely innocent?

If all unions ever did was offer legal advice, I doubt folks would have any problems with them. Which begs the question, what is it they are doing that's causing their ranks to shrink and the companies they service to go bankrupt? Do they not share some of the blame here or are they completely innocent?

Yes.
No.