Replies
100
Beach Fanatic
thanks for the try
That's OK, sorry it did not work when you tried.
I got the document off the county commission agenda for the March 10 meeting. It is on the county web site, www.co.walton.fl.us. Under "Government," you click on Agendas and Minutes, then on Agendas, Minutes, Live and Archived Meeting Video..., and then select the agenda corresponding with the date March 10. Links for the ordinance revisions and other information on vending are near the top of the page.
Beach FanaticAuthor
That's OK, sorry it did not work when you tried. I got the document off the county commission agenda for the March 10 meeting. It is on the county web site, www.co.walton.fl.us. Under "Government," you click on Agendas and Minutes, then on Agendas, Minutes, Live and Archived Meeting Video..., and then select the agenda corresponding with the date March 10. Links for the ordinance revisions and other information on vending are near the top of the page.thanks. Found pictures with the vendor sections in red outline. Looks like they split public beach accesses in half or close.
SoWal Expert
Other Florida beach communities have beach vendor rules and regulations. It is not unreasonable, nor is it re-inventing the wheel to put into place. I guarantee that the majority of citizens and visitors would like to see some improvement in this beach vendor business that has run amok in South Walton, to the detriment of tooo many people's enjoyment of our PUBLIC beaches. Maybe I can set up shop in a public place and not pay rent or follow any rules too.
Beach Fanatic
I read the proposed changes to the ordinance. Long overdue and not at all unreasonable IMO.
Beach Lover
If I understand the changes, it seems as though they cannot set-up prior to 7:30 a.m. between May 1 and October 1. That's fine because that means I can get my stuff set-up at 7:00 a.m. and not have to worry about getting space.
Admin
From WZEP AM 1460
WC BCC Beach Ordinance Meeting
It is Spring break now and summer visitors will be here soon. Walton County’s population swells and this means more work for the local government, emergency responders and businesses. As the county grows the number of residents and visitors, there is less room and the need for more support.
The Walton County Beaches host a number of people each year. With public areas, should private companies be able to set up rental chairs on the beach, taking space away from other public who want to use the beach? The question brings possible changes to the beach vending ordinance.
The beaches in Walton County provides for the largest economic generator. As more and more people come to Walton as guests, as new residents and as the county grows, the use of the beach and protection becomes a greater responsibility. This includes preserving the beach as a recreational area and preserving the natural aspects of the beach. With this in mind, Walton has ordinances covering the use of the beach, protecting wildlife, allowing for storm damage mitigation and providing for public access. The commissioners met to discuss revisions to the ordinance covering use.
Brian Killenberg, with the Walton TDC, presented a review of the current ordinances, possible management plan and uses. This also includes the vendors who sell and rent on the beach and allowing access to them while protecting wildlife such as turtles. There have been meetings and time for public input and Killenberg reviewed possible changes in the proposed ordinance to address what the public said and what staff determined.
Commissioner Cecilia Jones said her opinion is that if it is working and not broken, then don’t mess with it. This was met with a round of applause by many in the audience. Commissioner Bill Imfeld said he has concerns the county is going too fast on any changes.
Some of the proposed language concerns where the vendors can set up. This can depend on if the area is in front of private property and how much distance is between the wet sand and the toe of the dune or property.
Jones talked about the fines. She said leaving a chair out does not seem like it should be a $300 fine. Killenberg said they do use discretion and often call the vendor to see if the items were accidently left out. Jones said the fine should be for times when someone is intentionally breaking the rules. She said the staff should have an attitude of serving. Killenberg said they do understand this and understand many are simply small businesses who are trying to make a living.
Another proposal is to make the area part vendor and part public only. This is due to the vendors setting up chairs in the morning, setting them close to the water and thus preventing the rest of the public from being able to use the area. One complaint is the chairs are there and remain empty while the other users of the beach do not have room. The change would make it 50/50 on where the vendors can set up. It was asked if the public can also use the area where vendors are set up. The answer is, it is public beach and if you allow the vendors to use it, you need to allow the public to use it. It was noted the vendors do pay a $500 permit fee, but the county does not make any other money off the businesses using public areas for a private business.
In the discussion on changes in the beach ordinance, Walton Commissioner Bill Chapman warned the vendor businesses need to train their employees and take responsibility for the setup and takedown. He said not knowing should not be an excuse for not following the rules. Commissioner Cindy Meadows called this a lucrative business and said the fine needs to be enough they take notice. She said there have been problems where tourists have encountered problems and said they will not return. Commissioner Cecilia Jones said she wanted to make sure a simple mistake, like leaving a chair out, is not fined like a more serious crime. Staff said they are aware and use discretion.
Commissioner Jones said there are nine accesses the county has problems with and they should start with those and add more if needed in the future. She said the vendors do not need to place chairs and umbrellas out if they are not rented. Jones said Spring Break is here and they need to take action.
During public comment time, the discussions were overwhelmingly against making changes. Several property owners said there were problems with designating some of the accesses as public. Others said the there were only 16 documented complaints and that is an insignificant problem with the millions who visit. Several of the vendors said the changes would be a burden and affect their businesses. A business owner said he supports beach vendors, refering his guests to use their equipment. He said the vendors setting up and taking space that might not even be used, is not just taking space, but taking public space. Another residents agreed, saying the problem is the vendors taking space beachgoers can use by playing chairs that might be rented.
Commissioners said there are more complaints than just the 16. Commissioner Bill Imfeld said his office is further away than any other and he gets at least 16 complaints.
Imfeld made a motion to accept a 7:30am start time and a 50% setup area and make other changes later. He made the motion for all public access beaches. Chapman made the second. He asked to add the safety corridor and requirements for CPR and Water Safety Certification for the vendors with water sports. Imfeld amended his motion. Jones, who has a relative in the business abstained from the vote. The motion passed 4-0. The changes are in the current ordinance and are not all inclusive of the rules.
WC BCC Beach Ordinance Meeting
It is Spring break now and summer visitors will be here soon. Walton County’s population swells and this means more work for the local government, emergency responders and businesses. As the county grows the number of residents and visitors, there is less room and the need for more support.
The Walton County Beaches host a number of people each year. With public areas, should private companies be able to set up rental chairs on the beach, taking space away from other public who want to use the beach? The question brings possible changes to the beach vending ordinance.
The beaches in Walton County provides for the largest economic generator. As more and more people come to Walton as guests, as new residents and as the county grows, the use of the beach and protection becomes a greater responsibility. This includes preserving the beach as a recreational area and preserving the natural aspects of the beach. With this in mind, Walton has ordinances covering the use of the beach, protecting wildlife, allowing for storm damage mitigation and providing for public access. The commissioners met to discuss revisions to the ordinance covering use.
Brian Killenberg, with the Walton TDC, presented a review of the current ordinances, possible management plan and uses. This also includes the vendors who sell and rent on the beach and allowing access to them while protecting wildlife such as turtles. There have been meetings and time for public input and Killenberg reviewed possible changes in the proposed ordinance to address what the public said and what staff determined.
Commissioner Cecilia Jones said her opinion is that if it is working and not broken, then don’t mess with it. This was met with a round of applause by many in the audience. Commissioner Bill Imfeld said he has concerns the county is going too fast on any changes.
Some of the proposed language concerns where the vendors can set up. This can depend on if the area is in front of private property and how much distance is between the wet sand and the toe of the dune or property.
Jones talked about the fines. She said leaving a chair out does not seem like it should be a $300 fine. Killenberg said they do use discretion and often call the vendor to see if the items were accidently left out. Jones said the fine should be for times when someone is intentionally breaking the rules. She said the staff should have an attitude of serving. Killenberg said they do understand this and understand many are simply small businesses who are trying to make a living.
Another proposal is to make the area part vendor and part public only. This is due to the vendors setting up chairs in the morning, setting them close to the water and thus preventing the rest of the public from being able to use the area. One complaint is the chairs are there and remain empty while the other users of the beach do not have room. The change would make it 50/50 on where the vendors can set up. It was asked if the public can also use the area where vendors are set up. The answer is, it is public beach and if you allow the vendors to use it, you need to allow the public to use it. It was noted the vendors do pay a $500 permit fee, but the county does not make any other money off the businesses using public areas for a private business.
In the discussion on changes in the beach ordinance, Walton Commissioner Bill Chapman warned the vendor businesses need to train their employees and take responsibility for the setup and takedown. He said not knowing should not be an excuse for not following the rules. Commissioner Cindy Meadows called this a lucrative business and said the fine needs to be enough they take notice. She said there have been problems where tourists have encountered problems and said they will not return. Commissioner Cecilia Jones said she wanted to make sure a simple mistake, like leaving a chair out, is not fined like a more serious crime. Staff said they are aware and use discretion.
Commissioner Jones said there are nine accesses the county has problems with and they should start with those and add more if needed in the future. She said the vendors do not need to place chairs and umbrellas out if they are not rented. Jones said Spring Break is here and they need to take action.
During public comment time, the discussions were overwhelmingly against making changes. Several property owners said there were problems with designating some of the accesses as public. Others said the there were only 16 documented complaints and that is an insignificant problem with the millions who visit. Several of the vendors said the changes would be a burden and affect their businesses. A business owner said he supports beach vendors, refering his guests to use their equipment. He said the vendors setting up and taking space that might not even be used, is not just taking space, but taking public space. Another residents agreed, saying the problem is the vendors taking space beachgoers can use by playing chairs that might be rented.
Commissioners said there are more complaints than just the 16. Commissioner Bill Imfeld said his office is further away than any other and he gets at least 16 complaints.
Imfeld made a motion to accept a 7:30am start time and a 50% setup area and make other changes later. He made the motion for all public access beaches. Chapman made the second. He asked to add the safety corridor and requirements for CPR and Water Safety Certification for the vendors with water sports. Imfeld amended his motion. Jones, who has a relative in the business abstained from the vote. The motion passed 4-0. The changes are in the current ordinance and are not all inclusive of the rules.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Bottom line:::::Imfeld made a motion to accept a 7:30am start time and a 50% setup area and make other changes later. He made the motion for all public access beaches. Chapman made the second. He asked to add the safety corridor and requirements for CPR and Water Safety Certification for the vendors with water sports. Imfeld amended his motion. Jones, who has a relative in the business abstained from the vote. The motion passed 4-0. The changes are in the current ordinance and are not all inclusive of the rules.
Beach FanaticAuthor
This just in from Blue Mountain Beach highway 83 PUBLIC access....:local report: Thanks. The chair guys are furious. They have a petition going to stop it. They are still putting chairs any where they want & w/attitude. Key word Attitude always their Problem....
Beach Fanatic
There are a couple of significant errors in the report Kurt so graciously posted. The vote was 3-0 as Commissioner Comander was not present due to health issues. The other thing missing is that vendors must have insurance naming the county as co-owners in the coverage. One more thing. Sorry, 30ABeachBum, but as I understand it, you cannot set up while South Walton Turtle Watch has control of the beach, which ends now at 7:30 A.M.
Beach Fanatic
I believe the county attorney indicated that since the proposed ordinance was not approved (as a whole), the changes approved in Commissioner Imfeld's motion would have to be written up as an ordinance and that would come back before the BCC for approval. Presumably that is when the 50 percent rule and the other parts of the motion would take effect.
Beach Fanatic
This just in from Blue Mountain Beach highway 83 PUBLIC access....:local report: Thanks. The chair guys are furious. They have a petition going to stop it. They are still putting chairs any where they want & w/attitude. Key word Attitude always their Problem....
I think it would be helpful if the TDC, BCC, Sheriff, etc would formally and clearly communicate to beach vendors (owners and employees) that the public's right to enjoyment of these public lands trumps their perceived right to utilize these lands for purposes of commerce.
The public is entitled to the enjoyment of these public lands. It is their right.
The beach vendors are not entitled to their use of these public lands for purposes of commerce. It is their privilege.
Edited
Beach FanaticAuthor
I think it would be helpful if the TDC, BCC, Sheriff, etc would formally and clearly communicate to beach vendors (owners and employees) that the public's right to enjoyment of these public lands trumps their right to utilize these lands for purposes of commerce. The public is entitled to the enjoyment of these public lands. It is their right. The beach vendors are not entitled to their use of these public lands for purposes of commerce. It is their privilege.most businesses begin with a land purchase or a lease agreement..SO, I have the answer, why don't the vendors buy themselves a piece of beach front property( I know one for sale @2M) and then they can put up all the umbrellas that want on their property...
Beach Lover
In my experience dealing first hand with vacationers of South Walton I'd say 80 to 90% of the vacationers want full service beach chairs, confining 80-90% of our visitors to 50% of the beaches available doesn't seem like a realistic solution. The ghost sets are the problem, people can't get where they want to be on the beach because of empty chairs. address the problem, this 50/50 measure will only create bigger problems.
Lets not forget its the public renting these sets from the vendors.
Lets not forget its the public renting these sets from the vendors.
Beach Fanatic
I am in favor of ending all vending on the beach. If you want a chair and umbrella, bring your own. If you need someone to carry it for you, hire someone. No one should walk out on a beach and have 50 empty chairs waiting on them. Most of South Walton isn't a resort. If you need a resort we have those - Seaside, Rosemary, etc. Go there and you'll have all the chairs you need.
Public beach should be for people, not vendors.
Public beach should be for people, not vendors.
Beach Fanatic
OK I understand your argument about supply and demand, but what about your usage of public property to conduct a private business?
Are you willing to pay a fee or tax for the revenue you generate from public land use?
Are you willing to pay a fee or tax for the revenue you generate from public land use?
SoWal Expert
In my experience dealing first hand with vacationers of South Walton I'd say 80 to 90% of the vacationers want full service beach chairs, confining 80-90% of our visitors to 50% of the beaches available doesn't seem like a realistic solution. The ghost sets are the problem, people can't get where they want to be on the beach because of empty chairs. address the problem, this 50/50 measure will only create bigger problems. Lets not forget its the public renting these sets from the vendors.
I think your numbers are waaaay off. The vast majority of people at the public beach accesses do not rent set ups.
Beach Fanatic
Jdarg, I think you are absolutely right. The vendors are appealing to a minority of those using the public beach. Most going to the beach do not plan to stay all day long. At least they usually don't on our private beach. The problem as so many have stated is the "ghost chairs". Ban the setting up of chairs and umbrellas unless they have renters and you solve the problem. Let the vendors sort out how that will be accomplished. They may have to hire a few more people and change their method of operation some but from what I heard at the meeting their profit margin will certainly allow such changes. The beaches, as so many have said, are public. The public should be allowed to use them as they see fit as long as they are lawful and respectful.
Beach Fanatic
How can someone participate in the debate/discussion of an issue and then not vote due to a conflict of interest? In the past a commissioner with a conflict left the room when the topic was brought to the floor.
The "50/50" rule seems like it will cause a huge cluster and enforcement will be a nightmare. Andy/Jdarg have an idea that might totally solve the problem: Ban "ghost" setups and allow only chairs actually rented to be placed on the beach. No one is prevented from doing business just a change in how they do it. It would also help if complaints of belligerent and unfair practices were investigated and those with verified complaints were fined.
The "50/50" rule seems like it will cause a huge cluster and enforcement will be a nightmare. Andy/Jdarg have an idea that might totally solve the problem: Ban "ghost" setups and allow only chairs actually rented to be placed on the beach. No one is prevented from doing business just a change in how they do it. It would also help if complaints of belligerent and unfair practices were investigated and those with verified complaints were fined.
Beach Fanatic
In my experience dealing first hand with vacationers of South Walton I'd say 80 to 90% of the vacationers want full service beach chairs, confining 80-90% of our visitors to 50% of the beaches available doesn't seem like a realistic solution. The ghost sets are the problem, people can't get where they want to be on the beach because of empty chairs. address the problem, this 50/50 measure will only create bigger problems.
Lets not forget its the public renting these sets from the vendors.
Maybe 80-90% of people who come talk to you about buying golf carts use beach chair rental services- which would make the very first part of your statement true. But let's make sure we do not in any way confuse your cited numbers as a representative sampling of actual demand or usage of rental chairs on our public beaches.
The data point that 80-90% of users of our public beaches rent beach chairs is simply NOT a true statement. Not even close.
There isn't enough sand to make those numbers plausible even if you are using 150% of the beach at the waters edge. Each beach setup accommodates only 2 people and takes up - what- maybe 6-8 linear feet of sand?
IMHO vendors are lucky to be given half of our public beaches.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
How can someone participate in the debate/discussion of an issue and then not vote due to a conflict of interest? In the past a commissioner with a conflict left the room when the topic was brought to the floor.
The "50/50" rule seems like it will cause a huge cluster and enforcement will be a nightmare. Andy/Jdarg have an idea that might totally solve the problem: Ban "ghost" setups and allow only chairs actually rented to be placed on the beach. No one is prevented from doing business just a change in how they do it. It would also help if complaints of belligerent and unfair practices were investigated and those with verified complaints were fined.
Doesn't seem so hard to me. Left half of the beach- no rental chairs. Right half of the beach- feel free to rent your chairs. If you put chairs on the left half someone will take a picture of it and send it to the county. Your name is on the chairs. So they will know from whom they will be collecting the fine. And if it ends up being too difficult for the vendors to make it work then we can simply end all vending on public beaches.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
I've gone to the beach hundreds of times and have never felt the need to pay someone to set up a chair for me. Neither have my friends or family. Let's be realistic about how many people truly use this service.
Beach Fanatic
All I need is a towel. If they're renting out beer in coolers, then take my money.
Beach Fanatic
Geo wrote:
"Doesn't seem so hard to me. Left half of the beach- no rental chairs. Right half of the beach- feel free to rent your chairs. If you put chairs on the left half someone will take a picture of it and send it to the county. Your name is on the chairs. So they will know from whom they will be collecting the fine. And if it ends up being too difficult for the vendors to make it work then we can simply end all vending on public beaches."
Sounds good in theory, but things do not often work that way. Even if the picture quality is good and includes all the elements necessary, all you will hear are excuses and accusations. Not to mention the manpower needed to answer and investigate complaints from one end of the beach to the other. So the result would be exactly what you stated at the end: an end to all vending on public beaches.
Why not place kiosks at the upland end, rent them competitively and ban "ghost" setups? The vending businesses get to operate and provide jobs, the county makes money and those who do not wish to use their services can enjoy the beach without a fight. And free enterprise will sort out what works and what should go away. Just thinking.
"Doesn't seem so hard to me. Left half of the beach- no rental chairs. Right half of the beach- feel free to rent your chairs. If you put chairs on the left half someone will take a picture of it and send it to the county. Your name is on the chairs. So they will know from whom they will be collecting the fine. And if it ends up being too difficult for the vendors to make it work then we can simply end all vending on public beaches."
Sounds good in theory, but things do not often work that way. Even if the picture quality is good and includes all the elements necessary, all you will hear are excuses and accusations. Not to mention the manpower needed to answer and investigate complaints from one end of the beach to the other. So the result would be exactly what you stated at the end: an end to all vending on public beaches.
Why not place kiosks at the upland end, rent them competitively and ban "ghost" setups? The vending businesses get to operate and provide jobs, the county makes money and those who do not wish to use their services can enjoy the beach without a fight. And free enterprise will sort out what works and what should go away. Just thinking.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Geo wrote:
"Doesn't seem so hard to me. Left half of the beach- no rental chairs. Right half of the beach- feel free to rent your chairs. If you put chairs on the left half someone will take a picture of it and send it to the county. Your name is on the chairs. So they will know from whom they will be collecting the fine. And if it ends up being too difficult for the vendors to make it work then we can simply end all vending on public beaches."
Sounds good in theory, but things do not often work that way. Even if the picture quality is good and includes all the elements necessary, all you will hear are excuses and accusations. Not to mention the manpower needed to answer and investigate complaints from one end of the beach to the other. So the result would be exactly what you stated at the end: an end to all vending on public beaches.
Why not place kiosks at the upland end, rent them competitively and ban "ghost" setups? The vending businesses get to operate and provide jobs, the county makes money and those who do not wish to use their services can enjoy the beach without a fight. And free enterprise will sort out what works and what should go away. Just thinking.
How is the County going to make money? Tax? Fee?
Better yet, we can have a sort of bed tax but for chairs and keep the funds to "tourism" driven projects...
Your ideas are interesting, but this ultimately comes down to which chair vendor is going to be pro-active and not continue to operate with this "gang" mentality of screw you, we'll do what we want...
Beach Fanatic
The county would make money renting kiosks and selling licenses.
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