Bush is an idiot

Assuming we accept Chickpea's premise that one needs to be well-traveled to deal with such strife, where must one travel to pick up the appreciation of cultural nuance like strapping explosives to kids, cars and roadsides to kill those who you do not like? Just curious.

Assuming we accept Chickpea's premise that one needs to be well-traveled to deal with such strife, where must one travel to pick up the appreciation of cultural nuance like strapping explosives to kids, cars and roadsides to kill those who you do not like? Just curious.

30A,
IMHO there is very little understanding me or anyone else here for that matter could have for those people who become suicide bombers. All I can say is that there must be the deepest level of desperation, anger and despair to feel that this is the last method they need to resort to. The killings of civilians in NEVER justified but in war things change.

I have met dozens of truely educated, exceedingly well traveled arabs, who were fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity to leave their war torn regions, who had the financial means to put themselves through college and who, if they so chose, need never return home. Even with these privileges they are often consumed by an anger and furiousness that is hard to comprehend given the advantages afforded them. So imagine what it must be like for the thousands who have no political voice, harbor little if no prospects for their future, live in areas where there is rampant unemployment, stripped of their dignity and pride and basically have no hope whatsoever - they feel and become marginalized and turn to fundamentalism. I make no excuses for them but I can tell you this: if americans were forced to live in the same conditions as let's say palestinians who have spent deacdes in refugees camps, do you really think that peaceful revolt is all you would see.

My father has always said that what the middle east desperately needs is a Nelson Mandela or a Ghandi - someone who intrinsically and passionately believed that you could bring about drastic change in an oppressive regime through peaceful revolution. I couldn't agree more.

I know enough about personal politics to know that it is highly unlikely. if not downright impossible. to change anyone's personal ideas about our current president (and it has nothing whatsoever to do with being a republican or a democrat - in fact it is amazing to me that so few republicans are angry with him given how he has pretty much violated the very precepts of his party such as fiscal responsibility, conservative spending and small government!). My anger and disgust with Bush is that he is seemingly more preoccupied in his idealogical beliefs, in his own executive cocoon, and he is fueled by wanting to protect his power and that of his administration above all else and this leads him into a scary willingness and callouness to keep sending troops into Iraq to get blown up.

Respectfully sent.....

Es tambi?n posible que el castro mayor es algún qu? discombobulated con los E.E.U.U.; al igual que otros l?deres en otros pa?ses

Es Posible que los amigos Chavez y Castro si queiren mas dinero;-)

And, for ChickPea's post; Very nicely put...

I am on my soap box today - and am about to make a generalization most people will dislike me for but i truely believe one of the best ways to educate oneself about other cultures and religions is to travel - it does not make you more intelligent but it certainly gives you an exposure that is hard to otherwise acquire.

The vast majority of Bush (and let's not even mention Cheney!!) supporters I have met have generally traveled very little and rarely outside of Europe. In fact it is AMAZING to me that Bush was elected (actually placed as executive in charge by Supreme Court in 2000) and then re-elected in 2004, after having shown just how intellectually lazy and incurious he is about other cultures. For someone who grew up extraordinarily privileged (father head of CIA, then VP for 8 years, then president for 4, etc...) that this Bush had traveled so little (I believe only to Mexico and Canada!) by the time he was elected speaks VOLUMES. And for all of those people who voted a second time for Bush and NOW feel extreme regret (and they exist in droves...) I say "Shame on you because all the signs of gross and criminal incompetence and arrogance were there and wide open for all to see after 4 years!!"

Chickpea - everything you have stated is relevant, insightful and thoughtful. I have always believed that at the very bottom of it all is a president who is woefully unqualified (incompetent) to lead this country, much less provide global leadership. As a result, this administration has failed miserably in every way, especially in its role as a world leader. but, presidential arrogance reigns. as this administration continues to subject us to really bad war slogans:nono1: i think America is going to decide they are tired of being a mass of numb dumbies, and will wake up and vote for competent leadership (almost anyone else on the planet is more competent). I hope citizens have had their fill of good old boy reign.

Our leaders must truly understand foreign policy, world culture beyond US soil, and effectively work with nations to provide world leadership. We are a global community. Bush and cronies do not get this. America will suffer because of his lack of competence, as well as so many others in Iraq and beyond.

we know over 3000 US have died in Iraq. what about Iraqi civilians? one survey shows that americans believe about the same number have died in Iraq. in reality, no one knows, but I've seen numbers ranging from 60,000 to 600,000. it is staggering.

30A,
IMHO there is very little understanding me or anyone else here for that matter could have for those people who become suicide bombers. All I can say is that there must be the deepest level of desperation, anger and despair to feel that this is the last method they need to resort to. The killings of civilians in NEVER justified but in war things change.

I have met dozens of truely educated, exceedingly well traveled arabs, who were fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity to leave their war torn regions, who had the financial means to put themselves through college and who, if they so chose, need never return home. Even with these privileges they are often consumed by an anger and furiousness that is hard to comprehend given the advantages afforded them. So imagine what it must be like for the thousands who have no political voice, harbor little if no prospects for their future, live in areas where there is rampant unemployment, stripped of their dignity and pride and basically have no hope whatsoever - they feel and become marginalized and turn to fundamentalism. I make no excuses for them but I can tell you this: if americans were forced to live in the same conditions as let's say palestinians who have spent deacdes in refugees camps, do you really think that peaceful revolt is all you would see.

My father has always said that what the middle east desperately needs is a Nelson Mandela or a Ghandi - someone who intrinsically and passionately believed that you could bring about drastic change in an oppressive regime through peaceful revolution. I couldn't agree more.

I know enough about personal politics to know that it is highly unlikely. if not downright impossible. to change anyone's personal ideas about our current president (and it has nothing whatsoever to do with being a republican or a democrat - in fact it is amazing to me that so few republicans are angry with him given how he has pretty much violated the very precepts of his party such as fiscal responsibility, conservative spending and small government!). My anger and disgust with Bush is that he is seemingly more preoccupied in his idealogical beliefs, in his own executive cocoon, and he is fueled by wanting to protect his power and that of his administration above all else and this leads him into a scary willingness and callouness to keep sending troops into Iraq to get blown up.

Respectfully sent.....

I thought the current thinking was we should have left Saddam in power because he provided stability

Tootsie-We CAN'T LOSE IN IRAQ! We must find the will to achieve stabilty there. It is going to be bloody, violent and ugly, but I assure you, it will be much more so if we just shrug our shoulders, say "screw it" and withdraw.

I thought the current thinking was we should have left Saddam in power because he provided stability

Tootsie-We CAN'T LOSE IN IRAQ! We must find the will to achieve stabilty there. It is going to be bloody, violent and ugly, but I assure you, it will be much more so if we just shrug our shoulders, say "screw it" and withdraw.

Hey Skunky you are sexy when your britches are all bunched up! ;-)

Hey Skunky you are sexy when your britches are all bunched up! ;-)

:clap_1:

I've lived in Texas with the Bush legacy way back from owning the Rangers and didn't like him then. Look at Texas with Ann Richards and then look what happened when George Bush took office. How do you go from a multi-billion surplus to a multi-million dollar deficit that fast?

BUSH.......and imagine that it's a four letter word!

Good discussion. There so many problems with this Administration...one of the basic ones is that they are attempting to govern the country as though they were still running a political campaign...it doesn't work that way.

And, now, they are even messing up the political campaign!

It is sad that our country has been so damaged by our elected officials--I include the Congress. For where were they when this all started...

Our military men and women deserve an apology for more than the conditions at Walter Reed!

Good discussion. There so many problems with this Administration...one of the basic ones is that they are attempting to govern the country as though they were still running a political campaign...it doesn't work that way.

And, now, they are even messing up the political campaign!

It is sad that our country has been so damaged by our elected officials--I include the Congress. For where were they when this all started...

Our military men and women deserve an apology for more than the conditions at Walter Reed!

you should see the discussion over on the british thread. chickpea is kicking butt.

30A,
IMHO there is very little understanding me or anyone else here for that matter could have for those people who become suicide bombers. All I can say is that there must be the deepest level of desperation, anger and despair to feel that this is the last method they need to resort to. The killings of civilians in NEVER justified but in war things change.

I have met dozens of truely educated, exceedingly well traveled arabs, who were fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity to leave their war torn regions, who had the financial means to put themselves through college and who, if they so chose, need never return home. Even with these privileges they are often consumed by an anger and furiousness that is hard to comprehend given the advantages afforded them. So imagine what it must be like for the thousands who have no political voice, harbor little if no prospects for their future, live in areas where there is rampant unemployment, stripped of their dignity and pride and basically have no hope whatsoever - they feel and become marginalized and turn to fundamentalism. I make no excuses for them but I can tell you this: if americans were forced to live in the same conditions as let's say palestinians who have spent deacdes in refugees camps, do you really think that peaceful revolt is all you would see.

My father has always said that what the middle east desperately needs is a Nelson Mandela or a Ghandi - someone who intrinsically and passionately believed that you could bring about drastic change in an oppressive regime through peaceful revolution. I couldn't agree more.

I know enough about personal politics to know that it is highly unlikely. if not downright impossible. to change anyone's personal ideas about our current president (and it has nothing whatsoever to do with being a republican or a democrat - in fact it is amazing to me that so few republicans are angry with him given how he has pretty much violated the very precepts of his party such as fiscal responsibility, conservative spending and small government!). My anger and disgust with Bush is that he is seemingly more preoccupied in his idealogical beliefs, in his own executive cocoon, and he is fueled by wanting to protect his power and that of his administration above all else and this leads him into a scary willingness and callouness to keep sending troops into Iraq to get blown up.

Respectfully sent.....

Insightful post, Chickpea!! The lack of fiscal responsibility and growth in goverment programs just plain "smacks you in the face". The run up of the deficit is mind boggling to me!

.

Tootsie,

I truely believe in the power of grass root movements when I read posts like yours and others on this thread. That is my whole point - where is the outrage???? Only immediate consolation is that Bush is such a lame duck right now that he is hopefully absolutely powerless. As distressed as I was by his abject ignorance of the world when he first was 'awarded' the presidency, and seeing him fail upwards time and time again, I naively never thought he would act so unilaterally, without thought or consideration of all he would bring about even as EVERY single INTELLIGENT agency was telling him his post war plans were flawed and ill considered.

It has also been sad for me to see someone who I respected so much (McCain) for his principled stances on so many issues cave in to parrotting what is requested of him - even as he utters those sentences it looks like he does not believe in them himself.

When I think of all the good will he squandered post 911 - everyone in the world felt empathy towards the US and stood by Bush's side when he declared war on terrorism - where to go from here is now the question....

Insightful post, Chickpea!! The lack of fiscal responsibility and growth in goverment programs just plain "smacks you in the face". The run up of the deficit is mind boggling to me!

.

Exactly - so where are the hard core Republicans who actually placed value on following their prinicples..... very silent now (at least in public) because many are skewering him in private.

Fine, fine, fine... I surrender as it is getting a little too warm for a friendly bulletin board among neighbors...like I said before, maybe we can have a lively debate over some PBR at Amore. See, I can be culturally sensitive and surrender like a Frenchman

Exactly - so where are the hard core Republicans who actually placed value on following their prinicples..... very silent now (at least in public) because many are skewering him in private.

What good does it do to skewer Bush now, as you said Bush is a lame duck. Unfortunately we can't unwind the clock. I want to look forward and find answers for the future, this is what the next election will be about for me.

Fine, fine, fine... I surrender as it is getting a little too warm for a friendly bulletin board among neighbors...like I said before, maybe we can have a lively debate over some PBR at Amore. See, I can be culturally sensitive and surrender like a Frenchman

Skunkape,
Anytime although I have no idea what a PBR is......but I love Amore!!

Nice to see that you crack yourself up over surrender joke clap_1: )

Skunkape,
Anytime although I have no idea what a PBR is......but I love Amore!!

Nice to see that you crack yourself up over surrender joke clap_1: )

Pabst Blue Ribbon!

Pabst Blue Ribbon!

Only wine for this chick......

Only wine for this chick......

You are flirting with cultural illiteracy

Only wine for this chick......

me too.

you know, I'm happy to see Skunkape (dr. mofo, mr small box) chime in with his right wing / conservative political beliefs. we tend to hear a lot more from sowallers who are independent or left-leaning. we can't have any real discussion without hearing from more sides of the political spectrum.

so, I'm just saying that its good to hear really honest discussion going on here. we all stand to learn something from it. i.e., now chickpea knows what PBR is (but do not try it! stick with the vino!).

I am just happy that I live in a country where I can say out loud what I believe in. Be it the fact that I think the President of my country is an idiot or not. That I have the right as a citizen to choose my own religion without being told what I am going to believe. That I can speak out against my country without the fear of being hung, be-headed, or placed in front of a firing squad. I lived in Tehran, Iran for 3 years. I know the fear that those people had trying to voice their disdain for the leaders of their country. It sure made me appreciate the good 'ole U.S. of A more.

I thought the current thinking was we should have left Saddam in power because he provided stability

Tootsie-We CAN'T LOSE IN IRAQ! We must find the will to achieve stabilty there. It is going to be bloody, violent and ugly, but I assure you, it will be much more so if we just shrug our shoulders, say "screw it" and withdraw.

30A,

My father has always said that what the middle east desperately needs is a Nelson Mandela or a Ghandi - someone who intrinsically and passionately believed that you could bring about drastic change in an oppressive regime through peaceful revolution. I couldn't agree more.

Your father's opinion on what is needed in the Middle East may be spot on.

Last Friday, a 25 year old Iraqi woman won the Arab version of American Idol. They are calling her the Princess of Mesopatamia, because she has accomplished what they claim the American Soldiers haven't been able to, and that was to bring all Iraqi's together for a cause.
The Iraqi people (obviously not able to watch these types of shows (aired in Lebanon) under Saddams rule, since satelitte dishes were not permitted) were all banding together to watch her progress on the show.
No one cared what religion she was, or even that she was half Moroccan, spoke English very well, and sang songs in 4 languages, was wearing an evening gown, and cosmetics, but yet people all were watching together in the streets as well and celebrating when she won (they did shoot guns in celebration. Someone should give them some fireworks) She grabbed the Iraqi flag and knelt down crying.

Now if a young girl can bring a country together, imagine what an Iraqi leader the likes of Mandela or Ghandi could possibly accomplish?

I found it very interesting to see how these violently oppressed people, and a country with such religious warfare, reacted to this event.
Although I know the politics of all this is much more complicated, she made it look a lot less so.

Your father's opinion on what is needed in the Middle East may be spot on.

Last Friday, a 25 year old Iraqi woman won the Arab version of American Idol. They are calling her the Princess of Mesopatamia, because she has accomplished what they claim the American Soldiers haven't been able to, and that was to bring all Iraqi's together for a cause.
The Iraqi people (obviously not able to watch these types of shows (aired in Lebanon) under Saddams rule, since satelitte dishes were not permitted) were all banding together to watch her progress on the show.
No one cared what religion she was, or even that she was half Moroccan, spoke English very well, and sang songs in 4 languages, was wearing an evening gown, and cosmetics, but yet people all were watching together in the streets as well and celebrating when she won. She grabbed the Iraqi flag and knelt down crying.

Now if a young girl can bring a country together, imagine what an Arab leader the likes of Mandela or Ghandi could accomplish?

Food for thought.

very good point, mangy. I don't understand why we could think that war could ever stabilize any middle eastern country. what made us think that we needed to change this particular society for the better, or that we could? I truly hope Iraqi people will achieve freedom and peace in their nation - all people deserve this. But, can we achieve this for them, or must they do this for themselves? I just don't know.

Your father's opinion on what is needed in the Middle East may be spot on.

Last Friday, a 25 year old Iraqi woman won the Arab version of American Idol. They are calling her the Princess of Mesopatamia, because she has accomplished what they claim the American Soldiers haven't been able to, and that was to bring all Iraqi's together for a cause.
The Iraqi people (obviously not able to watch these types of shows (aired in Lebanon) under Saddams rule, since satelitte dishes were not permitted) were all banding together to watch her progress on the show.
No one cared what religion she was, or even that she was half Moroccan, spoke English very well, and sang songs in 4 languages, was wearing an evening gown, and cosmetics, but yet people all were watching together in the streets as well and celebrating when she won (they did shoot guns in celebration. Someone should give them some fireworks) She grabbed the Iraqi flag and knelt down crying.

Now if a young girl can bring a country together, imagine what an Iraqi leader the likes of Mandela or Ghandi could possibly accomplish?

I found it very interesting to see how these violently oppressed people, and a country with such religious warfare, reacted to this event.
Although I know the politics of all this is much more complicated, she made it look a lot less so.

More food for thought....how is it that the Iraqi people can now see her performance? Maybe the American soldiers derserve a little credit.

More food for thought....how is it that the Iraqi people can now see her performance? Maybe the American soldiers derserve a little credit.

Agreed. I didn't say otherwise. That's how they worded it in our own media, that she accomplished what the soldiers haven't. I would imagine they meant since toppling Saddam and they should have said the US and allies, if they were going to say anything at all. But that is how our own media reported the event, not me my friend. ;-)