Death today at Seagrove Beach

I'm usually a compassionate person, but I don't think that folks over the age of 18 should be ticked or rescued when reds are flying. Warn them to get out and enforce the part about swimming at your own risk. Lifeguards should not be asked to risk their lives over someone else's willful disregard of dangerous conditions. Let natural selection do its work.

I'm all for rescuing them because I feel like it's the right thing to do. However, I'd love to see them take a page from what some of the SOs Up North do during ice fishing season, and say that you will be billed for the full cost of rescue if a lifeguard, firefighter, or LEO goes in after you on a double red day, and that the minimum bill you will receive for services is high enough to count, say starting at $2500 or something like that.

I'm all for rescuing them because I feel like it's the right thing to do. However, I'd love to see them take a page from what some of the SOs Up North do during ice fishing season, and say that you will be billed for the full cost of rescue if a lifeguard, firefighter, or LEO goes in after you on a double red day, and that the minimum bill you will receive for services is high enough to count, say starting at $2500 or something like that.

I like the idea of billing them, but there is more at stake here than money for services rendered. I was a lifeguard in my previous life for about a decade, and I worked at pools, waterparks, a large lake in Georgia, and a small lake in central Florida.

When someone is drowning, it is automatically a dangerous situation, but most of the time it's less dangerous for the rescuer than it is for the rescue-ee. I was in a couple of situations where there were exceptions to that--sudden electrical storms where small boats (catamarans, paddleboats) were stranded on the lake and had to be pulled in (in central Florida, add that to Gator-inhabited water,) disentangling stranded swimmers from a rapids-type water slide while other swimmers are still coming down on you, intoxicated and belligerent swimmers, a chlorine leak at a pool, etc.

But I was never a beach lifeguard, and this ain't Baywatch. A wave pool can be turned off (and was turned off many times when swimmers got in trouble.) But an undertow or rip tide that can carry one swimmer away can carry a rescuer away, too. I do not think it's the right thing to send some kid who's making less than he would at Starbucks to risk his life. Greenroomsurfer is good about rescuing folks, too, and I'm going to be mighty upset when he tears his back up, gets whacked in the head by a drunk and drowns, gets bitten by a shark, etc. for his trouble. It's like telling someone to evacuate for a flood or hurricane--if you choose to stay, you can't expect someone to risk life and limb trying to save you.

I've been thinking the same thing. Usually, I absolutely crave the summer, but this year I can hardly wait for it to be over...

True, but we'll just be biatching come February.

You love snowbirds, and you know it

Actually now that I don't work with them they don't have nearly the bone chilling, grey hair causing, effect they used to.

P.S. I'm stopping by for my free blood sugar monitor. ;-)

I agree, except that speeding endangers others. Swimming in dangerous waters only endangers yourself.

I'm usually a compassionate person, but I don't think that folks over the age of 18 should be ticked or rescued when reds are flying. Warn them to get out and enforce the part about swimming at your own risk. Lifeguards should not be asked to risk their lives over someone else's willful disregard of dangerous conditions. Let natural selection do its work.

As for the parents who allow their children to swim (or jaywalk!), they shouldn't be ticketed; they should be arrested for child endangerment. :angry:

Unless the rescuer drowns saving the first victim, as what usually happens. That's when bystanders become victims because of selfless thinking people.

I intentionally left the beach saturday because I didn't want to drown/get in trouble saving the nearby idiots. Obviously I wouldn't be able to just stand idly by while they drowned, so I simply removed myself from the situation for MY safety.

My previous post was incorrect. There was more than one older gentleman in that group. The one seen yesterday was obviously not the decreased. Unfortunately one of them was the one who died at Seagrove Beach on Monday. It was so sad hearing the children weeping and seeing the grief on the family's faces.

I apologize for the misinformation.

Unless the rescuer drowns saving the first victim, as what usually happens. That's when bystanders become victims because of selfless thinking people.

My point is that if you are speeding, you can lose control and hit someone else. You run the risk of having an accident that injures or kills someone who had no part in your decision to drive too fast. If you choose to swim in dangerous water, you aren't going to run off the road and kill someone who was just passing by on the way to Sunday School.

In the water, the rescuer endangers himself, albeit willingly and unselfishly, when he enters the water to rescue someone. Maybe he didn't get up that morning with plans to pull someone out of the water, but at some point he made a conscious decision to put himself in harm's way.

My point is that if you are speeding, you can lose control and hit someone else. You run the risk of having an accident that injures or kills someone who had no part in your decision to drive too fast. If you choose to swim in dangerous water, you aren't going to run off the road and kill someone who was just passing by on the way to Sunday School.

In the water, the rescuer endangers himself, albeit willingly and unselfishly, when he enters the water to rescue someone. Maybe he didn't get up that morning with plans to pull someone out of the water, but at some point he made a conscious decision to put himself in harm's way.

Most people I know will not stand by and watch someone drown, they wouldn't be able to live with themselves.....so yes....the person in the water during a double red flag is endangering the public, which is well documented in Walton Co. by the amount of rescuers/civilians who drown trying to help.

Most people I know will not stand by and watch someone drown, they wouldn't be able to live with themselves.....so yes....the person in the water during a double red flag is endangering the public, which is well documented in Walton Co. by the amount of rescuers/civilians who drown trying to help.

I understand that (and agree--I wouldn't be able to stop myself, either) but it is still a conscious decision. It's not like someone standing on the beach with a scatter-gun, though.

Are any of us REALLY sure we would go in (excluding lifeguards and LEO's who may be reading this)? What about if it was one of those situations where it was a drunk, combative person that had already been told by the cops to stay out of the water more than once? I am not saying I wouldn't, but there are definitely times that I would not rush headlong into that type of situation. It reminds me of the old saying by my mom, would you jump off the bridge if Billy did?

Quite sure I couldn't just stand there and let someone die.

It's easy to SAY you would or that you'd be logical about it, but in reality you just act, you don't mull it over - that's why most training focuses on repetition - so that your automatic action is the correct one.

I know I couldn't either, but I'm also quite sure that it doesn't constitute public endangerment. That's where the rescuer has to have the personal responsibility to say that he went in because of his own conscience, not because the swimmer was endangering him.

There's a cool story about a guy who helped another swimmer in a shark attack. I was particularly struck by this part, which seems pertinent here:

Joe Jansen had paddled only 15 feet toward shore in his panic when he decided he couldn't live with himself if he didn't go back. He entered the pool of bloody water, half expecting to be attacked. "Quick! Get on your board!" he shouted to Endris. "C'mon, pal -- it's behind you. Let's go!"

I understand your point completely, and don't disagree. It's just there has been a fair amount of venom (and discussion of darwinism) that has come out on the thread about what should or should not be done to people who go in the water. So I thought I would throw out the ethical dilemma question.

Are any of us REALLY sure we would go in (excluding lifeguards and LEO's who may be reading this)?

I would. But then I'm a strong open water swimmer, and was a pool lifeguard to help pay for college back when. Rule #1- take something with you that floats that you can also extend to the rescuee- rescue can, ring, skimboard, floaty raft... The victim comes into contact with the floaty and you're not putting yourself into a position where they can panic and drag you under.

I intentionally left the beach saturday because I didn't want to drown/get in trouble saving the nearby idiots. Obviously I wouldn't be able to just stand idly by while they drowned, so I simply removed myself from the situation for MY safety.

Have done exactly the same, for the same reasons, more than once.

I would. But then I'm a strong open water swimmer, and was a pool lifeguard to help pay for college back when. Rule #1- take something with you that floats that you can also extend to the rescuee- rescue can, ring, skimboard, floaty raft... The victim comes into contact with the floaty and you're not putting yourself into a position where they can panic and drag you under.

All well and good unless it says this.

Our place is on the far west end of PCB and since there are so many public accesses, the flags are always easy to see and the beach patrol PA alert system has been in full swing. However, the problem I've noticed SEVERAL times this summer is parents of teenagers letting their kids flaunt a)the flags and b)the beach patrol.

For example, I recently saw some teenagers out in double red flags, with their parents watching from the shore. The beach patrol came by, and first tried to whistle them in. When that didn't work, he had to get out of the truck, go down to the water's edge and use some strong language to get them in. He then had a talk with the parents and explained about the law and the deaths that had happened THAT VERY DAY. As soon as he drove off, the kids were right back in without a word from the parents.

What the #$%%^ do people think? That encounter was so wrong on so many levels.....

I have even heard people say that if they have paid their money for a week, they are going in the water no matter what. As if their life or their child's life or a rescuer's life is worth less than what they paid for their vacation.

Our place is on the far west end of PCB and since there are so many public accesses, the flags are always easy to see and the beach patrol PA alert system has been in full swing. However, the problem I've noticed SEVERAL times this summer is parents of teenagers letting their kids flaunt a)the flags and b)the beach patrol.

For example, I recently saw some teenagers out in double red flags, with their parents watching from the shore. The beach patrol came by, and first tried to whistle them in. When that didn't work, he had to get out of the truck, go down to the water's edge and use some strong language to get them in. He then had a talk with the parents and explained about the law and the deaths that had happened THAT VERY DAY. As soon as he drove off, the kids were right back in without a word from the parents.

What the #$%%^ do people think? That encounter was so wrong on so many levels.....

I have even heard people say that if they have paid their money for a week, they are going in the water no matter what. As if their life or their child's life or a rescuer's life is worth less than what they paid for their vacation.

Roomier car on the ride home?

Back in 2005 the Destin Log published something I wrote...

...seems to fit right in with what many of you are saying (This was before my eyes had been opened to the South Walton experience and before we bought a house in Miramar, so I hope the "Destin" reference is okay here.)

This was published in 7/20/2005

One can offer only so much advice

By C. Alan Nicholson Guest commentary


Save yourself the time, trouble and expense, Destin and Okaloosa residents. Don?t waste another ounce of energy pleading for public education about the potential dangers of the Gulf. They?ve been informed, warned and cajoled, repeatedly.
We have all heard it; some just will not listen.
These select individuals seem to consider themselves immune from the forces of nature and laws of man that apply to us mere mortals. These people cannot be reached despite your considerable efforts to save them from themselves.
I?ve been taking my family to Destin for 20 years. We love Destin. We love the beach. We want to speed every available moment there, but like most people, we realize that on some days the potential for injury or worse is just too great to justify the risk of playing in the surf.
Reasonable people probably did not need the ?double red? flags advising that the water was closed. The double red wasn?t intended for reasonable people really; it was for those too irresponsible to take proper care for themselves and their children. Perhaps the force of law would elicit compliance with what is just common sense to most of us.
Good idea in theory.
It isn?t working as well as had been hoped. In the two days after Tropical Storm Cindy blew through, the beaches flew the double red flags. Nevertheless, adults and an alarming number of young kids poured into the water. The beach patrol, which had diligently and commendably gone person to person on July 4 to hand out cards explaining the significance of the flags, spent the two days post-Cindy vainly trying to enforce the law that they had just explained person-to-person and face-to-face.
At the stretch of beach where my family was, the patrol whistled at and cautioned the same violators over and over both days. As soon as the familiar red ATVs rolled on, the annoyed violators returned to the waves in their seeming relentless zeal to become a statistic.
Destin/Okaloosa you?ve tried. It?s a shame that the next preventable drowning will prompt calls for you to do more to ?educate the public.? It won?t be your fault, but it?s a lot easier to call for more ?public education? than it is to criticize the ?victim? or the grieving parents of the ?victim? upon whom the responsibility properly rests.
P.S. I realize that this issue pales in comparison to the concerns you have as I write this on Saturday afternoon, July 9.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you as you face the uncertainty of Dennis. We left our vacation a day early to return the relative safety of Atlanta, but we are keenly aware of what the next 24 hours may hold for you, and we wish you the very best possible outcome.
C. Alan Nicholson is a resident of Marietta, Ga.

Could you see the flags if you were 80? This photo is taken from the area where the victim was sitting. These are the closest flags.

At the popular Ramsgate walkover, which serves a whole lot of rentals, including the ever-popular Summers Edge, it is nearly impossible to see a flag to either the east or west. Given the number of beachgoers, that walkover needs its own flag. It is maybe 200 yards east of the site of BR's photo.

Liked your article. I am shocked how some go in the water with dangerous water conditions. I grew up here before flags. Some days, you just knew not to go in. How anyone would go in or let their children go in with double red flags flying is beyond reason. Especially with all the coastal dune lakes that have outfalls that could serve as a safe alternative to a natural beach swimming experience until the waves and tides calmed down. I would also like to say I'm proud of you for now knowing the difference between SoWal and Destin.

Revisiting this thread (and not reading ALL the comments)...you can stop (IMHO) at Smiling
JOe 's statement...(ref..8/05/08...0803 hours)....and, I quote..."...you cannot fix stupid..."

and...with his permission...I'm gonna use that, I'm sure, in a sentence tomorrow....

Love y'all,
bye
NK

Out of curiosity, have the drownings usually been adult men? It seems so to me. So, it could be that men go in to save people who are in the water despite the red flags or that men are more likely to feel as though they can resist the pull of rip tides because of their size. If there is a pattern that it's mostly adult men who have been drowning, then they may need special focus in efforts to prevent people from going into the ocean on red flag days. For example, let them know that weight/gender/strength does not prevent drownings from rip tide. Let them know the statistics of the gender/ages of the people who drown to dispel any myths that strong men may not drown.

A couple of years ago, 2 locals, both very athletic and strong swimmers, saved a drowning victim, unfotunately, one of the rescuers died/drowned.

I like your suggestion; perhaps a pic of the deseased rescuers at the flag poles would help.