has anyone heard anything about the County and the private property owner recently coming to terms for the County to acquire the beach parcel at the Eastern Lake outflow (19-3S-18-16080-000-0130) that is directly south of the Walton County Port Authority parcel containing the Eastern Lake beach access?
I heard this was the case from two different sources a few weeks ago while spending time on the isthmus. We haven't seen any of the "no trespassing" signs or the signs restricting people to use a certain beach chair vendor this year; in fact, we haven't seen many vendor beach chair setups on the parcel this year.
Replies
127Beach Lover
I can give my opinion abut how it applies, but that is all it is, unless they appoint me as Judge. Has the public used the beaches of Walton County for recreation since ancient times? I think so, I'm sure at least as long as the public in Daytona. Is that use reasonable? I think so, at least as reasonable as the use in Daytona. Has it been without interruption and free from dispute? Yes until very recently. I'm sure you have a different opinion based on common law, legal scholars and Blackstone.
I'll take that bet regarding deeds.
If the property owners and/or the county doesn't want to spend the money, they could come to the table with reasonable solutions or in an effort to find middle ground, as Bob Wells suggested. Many times both sides are disappointed with a court's decision. If the two sides could come to an agreement they can both live with, everyone will be better off. I hope they can do this, however like Bob Wells said that is uncommon these days.
Can you explain WHY you think public custom in Walton is ancient (how long is ancient?), reasonable (what is reasonable?), how it is without interruption, or free from dispute. I understand your opinion but what do you based your opinion on? To just say it applies is not enough. What is the historical application of these criteria?
In the Trepanier/Daytona case you quoted, the property owners prevailed and there was no valid custom confirmed on their Daytona property. Correct?
Property owners have come to the table. Mike Huckabee, yes that Mike Huckabee, proposed Beach Share to the commissioners. Got NO response from the commissioners, that I know of, and push back in the public forum in the papers from property right opponents. Dave R had his emotional cry for "This sand is your sand, this sand is my sand". Except even if owners should not prevail, by law, owners still own the sand. So Dave R should look for another slogan.
EDITORIAL: ‘Beach Share’ worth reviewing in South Walton
What have commissioners, you, and other outspoken opponents of property rights offered but to have owners give away rights for a "tax" break" (of little worth relative to the right's value to the owner) or defend against legislation/litigation to take property rights they have today? That's more like commissioner extortion with tax payer's money and commissioners may get nothing in return of the tax payers millions (and may have to pay the owners legal fees too).
Churchill said something like; When we have run out of money (or options to throw money at, if custom fails); Now we have to think (to find solutions)! Except property owners will be in a much stronger position if they prevail.
If you are willing to bet on the deed discrepancies why don't you file suite or commissioners litigate to clear the deeds first? That's would be clear cut compared to claiming custom. You'd be a public hero to prevail with that.
Edited
Beach Lover
Could a compromise be that the county rents or purchases portions of private property?Walton can do that now on the free market and commissioners have recently in Dune Allen. Commissioners have many offers. Make an offer.
Until then please respect the owner property rights that they have had and have today. And the Sheriff should enforce those owner's rights, the same rights that you have for your property, or he his derelict in his duty.
Plus Walton has over 6+ miles of beachfront, 38 acres of dry sand, and 5,800+ acres of parks (you have to pay to use). How much more do you think commissioners need?
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Beach Lover
Walton can do that now on the free market and commissioners have recently in Dune Allen. Commissioners have many offers. Make an offer.
Until then please respect the owner property rights that they have had and have today. And the Sheriff should enforce those owner's rights, the same rights that you have for your property, or he his derelict in his duty.[/QUOT
Beach Lover
Apologies. What I meant to say: has there been any compromise extended where the county has offered to rent portions of private property not currently for sale? Has there been a compromise extended where the county offered to buy portions of private beach property not on the market?
I believe that the sheriff has been derelict in his duties by that ridiculous SOP.
Oh! And Lucas, I have an answer as to why there is no promotion to the many unused miles of beachfront public parks with all their amenities. "No alcohol allowed" was the answer when I asked this question, in a meeting earlier in the summer, to Cindy Meadows, county attorney, representative of the sheriff's department, and a couple others. Apparently, they pander to trespassers, people that won't go 8 hours without a cocktail, and the ones not smart enough to put their hooch in a Coppertone bottle.
I believe that the sheriff has been derelict in his duties by that ridiculous SOP.
Oh! And Lucas, I have an answer as to why there is no promotion to the many unused miles of beachfront public parks with all their amenities. "No alcohol allowed" was the answer when I asked this question, in a meeting earlier in the summer, to Cindy Meadows, county attorney, representative of the sheriff's department, and a couple others. Apparently, they pander to trespassers, people that won't go 8 hours without a cocktail, and the ones not smart enough to put their hooch in a Coppertone bottle.
Beach Fanatic
Lucas Reynolds:
1. I was a Deputy Sheriff in the late 80's and early 90's when the dog hunting issues were hot and heavy here. The trespass law changed to cover dogs and made the owners responsible. I guess you will just have to take my word because I am not writing a book report or a legal treatise to prove a point in an internet discussion. There's no money in it.
2. I am strongly in favor of property rights. My position is that the citizens of the county have rights to the white sand portion of the beach south of the toe of the dunes though decades of use by citizens. There is no infringement of the rights of the owners since this is the status quo. I.E. Customary Use. I understand that you do not agree and that is fine. But neither you nor I will be the arbiter of this issue, the courts will decide. But I am not writing a legal brief on the subject here.
3. The BCC has a duty to defend the rights of 10's of thousands of citizens and visitors who have used the beaches for recreational purposes for many years. Anything worth having is worth defending.
4. It is my opinion that the economy of the county will be adversely effected should significant portions of the beach are closed to the public. I understand that you disagree, but each of us have a right to our opinions. Again, I am not going to write a report on the subject because there is nothing to be gained by it. As Bob Wells has pointed out, no one's opinion will change.
5. I absolutely think there is a better way than lawsuits to handle this. Granting recreation easements on the white sand portion of the beach in exchange for tax breaks seems like a much cheaper method for both sides. The public get access to the beaches and the owners do not abdicate any rights they perceive to have. I have also advocated purchasing as much beachfront as possible and building accesses and infrastructure. But the opposition of the beachfront property owners to these purchases and improvements make it seem as though it is not property rights that they desire but the privatization of the beach and keeping the common people out. I would rather spend tax dollars on purchasing beachfront and improving it instead of paying lawyer fees, but if every purchase faces litigation and obstruction, then it would be more efficient to sue for total access and forget purchasing anything.
1. I was a Deputy Sheriff in the late 80's and early 90's when the dog hunting issues were hot and heavy here. The trespass law changed to cover dogs and made the owners responsible. I guess you will just have to take my word because I am not writing a book report or a legal treatise to prove a point in an internet discussion. There's no money in it.
2. I am strongly in favor of property rights. My position is that the citizens of the county have rights to the white sand portion of the beach south of the toe of the dunes though decades of use by citizens. There is no infringement of the rights of the owners since this is the status quo. I.E. Customary Use. I understand that you do not agree and that is fine. But neither you nor I will be the arbiter of this issue, the courts will decide. But I am not writing a legal brief on the subject here.
3. The BCC has a duty to defend the rights of 10's of thousands of citizens and visitors who have used the beaches for recreational purposes for many years. Anything worth having is worth defending.
4. It is my opinion that the economy of the county will be adversely effected should significant portions of the beach are closed to the public. I understand that you disagree, but each of us have a right to our opinions. Again, I am not going to write a report on the subject because there is nothing to be gained by it. As Bob Wells has pointed out, no one's opinion will change.
5. I absolutely think there is a better way than lawsuits to handle this. Granting recreation easements on the white sand portion of the beach in exchange for tax breaks seems like a much cheaper method for both sides. The public get access to the beaches and the owners do not abdicate any rights they perceive to have. I have also advocated purchasing as much beachfront as possible and building accesses and infrastructure. But the opposition of the beachfront property owners to these purchases and improvements make it seem as though it is not property rights that they desire but the privatization of the beach and keeping the common people out. I would rather spend tax dollars on purchasing beachfront and improving it instead of paying lawyer fees, but if every purchase faces litigation and obstruction, then it would be more efficient to sue for total access and forget purchasing anything.
Beach Lover
Apologies. What I meant to say: has there been any compromise extended where the county has offered to rent portions of private property not currently for sale? Has there been a compromise extended where the county offered to buy portions of private beach property not on the market?Not that I ever heard about. It's a free market. If there is a willing seller/lessor and willing buyer/lessee that negotiate at arms length; commissioners could buy or rent from owners willing to I suppose. Or are you inferring that commissioners should compel property owners to sell or lease their beachfront property to Walton for public use?
I believe that the sheriff has been derelict in his duties by that ridiculous SOP.Agree. Sheriff Adkinson should have to reimburse property owners for surveys who complied with his SOP (for a thousand dollars) if the Sheriff is not going to enforce the law today. Deputies are great though.
Oh! And Lucas, I have an answer as to why there is no promotion to the many unused miles of beachfront public parks with all their amenities. "No alcohol allowed" was the answer when I asked this question, in a meeting earlier in the summer, to Cindy Meadows, county attorney, representative of the sheriff's department, and a couple others. Apparently, they pander to trespassers, people that won't go 8 hours without a cocktail, and the ones not smart enough to put their hooch in a Coppertone bottle.Coppertone bottle!? That's funny. I understand no dogs allowed in parks either. I understand Walton can't drive their vehicles on park beaches, can't have alcohol in the park, can't have dogs in the parks, and you have to pay a fee to use the park; BUT, Walton can and does drive on private property without owners consent, private property owners have no right to prohibit alcohol or dogs on thier private property and the public use private property for free, and owners put up with the trash, sand pits, their dune destruction, foul language and drunks, with customary use.Owners are tired of the double standards. And people don't understand why owners want their property rights enforced like the parks?
Edited
Beach Lover
Lucas Reynolds:
1. I was a Deputy Sheriff in the late 80's and early 90's when the dog hunting issues were hot and heavy here. The trespass law changed to cover dogs and made the owners responsible. I guess you will just have to take my word because I am not writing a book report or a legal treatise to prove a point in an internet discussion. There's no money in it.
2. I am strongly in favor of property rights. My position is that the citizens of the county have rights to the white sand portion of the beach south of the toe of the dunes though decades of use by citizens. There is no infringement of the rights of the owners since this is the status quo. I.E. Customary Use. I understand that you do not agree and that is fine. But neither you nor I will be the arbiter of this issue, the courts will decide. But I am not writing a legal brief on the subject here.
3. The BCC has a duty to defend the rights of 10's of thousands of citizens and visitors who have used the beaches for recreational purposes for many years. Anything worth having is worth defending.
4. It is my opinion that the economy of the county will be adversely effected should significant portions of the beach are closed to the public. I understand that you disagree, but each of us have a right to our opinions. Again, I am not going to write a report on the subject because there is nothing to be gained by it. As Bob Wells has pointed out, no one's opinion will change.
5. I absolutely think there is a better way than lawsuits to handle this. Granting recreation easements on the white sand portion of the beach in exchange for tax breaks seems like a much cheaper method for both sides. The public get access to the beaches and the owners do not abdicate any rights they perceive to have. I have also advocated purchasing as much beachfront as possible and building accesses and infrastructure. But the opposition of the beachfront property owners to these purchases and improvements make it seem as though it is not property rights that they desire but the privatization of the beach and keeping the common people out. I would rather spend tax dollars on purchasing beachfront and improving it instead of paying lawyer fees, but if every purchase faces litigation and obstruction, then it would be more efficient to sue for total access and forget purchasing anything.
Thanks Danny.
1. “The trespass law changed to cover dogs and made the owners responsible.” I asked it before; then why did private property owners have to litigate to stop hunter’s trespass? That's one of the points. I'm not going to take your word for anything unless you have some facts to back it up. No one else should accept your, or mine, or anyone’s opinion without knowing the facts and doing their due diligence to make an informed opinion. And you have not offered any facts to convey you understand the historic doctrine of custom or deer-dog hunter trespassing in your opinions. You are entitled to your opinion indeed as are we all. “No money in it.” That's funny, you sound more like a politician.
2. I understand you are not open to understanding the legal history and application of custom. I think you misrepresent what custom is to justify your means. But hopefully this exchange will motivate others to try and learn more and understand custom better and not continue to spread misinformation of what custom is and is not.
3. “Anything worth having is worth defending.” just not with your time and effort to defend your opinions with facts or as long as the commissioners do it with tax payers million$.
4. Your opinion about the economy would be easy to discredit in the long term. The economy is based on supply and demand. And demand has not diminish over the decades and not likely to in the long term, in my opinion. So we are even on opinions about the economy.
5. So if property owners don’t accept the easement? Then litigate to take property owner rights, that owners “perceive to have”, and that you want? Not much of a compromise.
I will continue to challenging you and Dave R. when you misrepresent the historical doctrine of custom to take Constitutional private property rights owners have today. Just have your facts ready.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Obviously you are not a fan of "Tombstone." "There's no money in it" is a quote from Wyatt Earp in that movie.
Beach Fanatic
I can see the NW FL Daily News story now:
"WCSO to spend thousands in beach front owner reimbursement due to failed SOP."
Also, does anyone know what the TDC Ambassadors say when asked if the beach is public or private? Have they been given any direction?
I also wonder what they do when they see violations (glass, pets, etc.)?
Are they trained to call WCSO or Code (non) Enforcement or just look away?
Why wait till September to put them out on beaches too?
"WCSO to spend thousands in beach front owner reimbursement due to failed SOP."
Also, does anyone know what the TDC Ambassadors say when asked if the beach is public or private? Have they been given any direction?
I also wonder what they do when they see violations (glass, pets, etc.)?
Are they trained to call WCSO or Code (non) Enforcement or just look away?
Why wait till September to put them out on beaches too?
Beach Fanatic
A few BCC meetings ago, there was mention that some beaches in South Walton might be subject to customary use and some might not. To my knowledge, none of the case law in Florida to date covers expanses of beach anything like 26 miles long (or 18 or so if we remove the state parks). Seems like a pretty bold move to make all of the non-state park beaches in Walton County subject to a customary use ordinance when the BCC is almost certainly going to be hit with multiple lawsuits.
I also wonder if the insurers that insure County government are likely to keep insuring them when there are almost constant lawsuits around here, especially if the County does not prevail.
I also wonder if the insurers that insure County government are likely to keep insuring them when there are almost constant lawsuits around here, especially if the County does not prevail.
Beach Comber
Can you explain WHY you think public custom in Walton is ancient (how long is ancient?), reasonable (what is reasonable?), how it is without interruption, or free from dispute. I understand your opinion but what do you based your opinion on? To just say it applies is not enough. What is the historical application of these criteria?
In the Trepanier/Daytona case you quoted, the property owners prevailed and there was no valid custom confirmed on their Daytona property. Correct?
Property owners have come to the table. Mike Huckabee, yes that Mike Huckabee, proposed Beach Share to the commissioners. Got NO response from the commissioners, that I know of, and push back in the public forum in the papers from property right opponents. Dave R had his emotional cry for "This sand is your sand, this sand is my sand". Except even if owners should not prevail, by law, owners still own the sand. So Dave R should look for another slogan.
EDITORIAL: ‘Beach Share’ worth reviewing in South Walton
What have commissioners, you, and other outspoken opponents of property rights offered but to have owners give away rights for a "tax" break" (of little worth relative to the right's value to the owner) or defend against legislation/litigation to take property rights they have today? That's more like commissioner extortion with tax payer's money and commissioners may get nothing in return of the tax payers millions (and may have to pay the owners legal fees too).
Churchill said something like; When we have run out of money (or options to throw money at, if custom fails); Now we have to think (to find solutions)! Except property owners will be in a much stronger position if they prevail.
If you are willing to bet on the deed discrepancies why don't you file suite or commissioners litigate to clear the deeds first? That's would be clear cut compared to claiming custom. You'd be a public hero to prevail with that.
First of all it doesn't matter what I think or what you think, it matters what the court think. However, The Court in Tona Roma thought the use of the beach in Daytona was ancient or they would have found for the property owner. I believe the beach in Walton County has been used just as long as the beach in Daytona. Like may others I have generations of family that tell me so. Not to mention their is a museum in Ft. Walton that says the Native Americans use the coast line long before anyone owned the beach. Is that enough for the courts, that I don't know and neither do you. I don't know what the courts will say is reasonable, but sitting by the waters edge in a chair enjoying the cold beverage of my choice seems reasonable to me. The Court in Tona seemed to think this kind of activity was reasonable. I know its been without interruption and free from dispute in blue mountain, grayton and seagrove for at least forty years because I've been a frequent user of the beach in those places for that period of time and never saw a no trespassing sign until a few years ago. Now I'm sure you will tell me how I'm wrong, but why don't you prove that I'm wrong. You keep asking for facts, give us your facts and what you base your opinion on.
I don't know what the ultimate decision was in the Tepanier case. The case I quoted was an appeal from a summary judgment in favor of the county. You are correct the Court over turned the summary judgment and sent it back to the trial court to flesh out the facts. If you know the ultimate outcome please share it with me.
I read the article you quoted about Mr. Huckabee's plan. I'd be all for it, however I doubt very many owners would participate, but lets give it a shot. I'm not an outspoken opponent of property rights. I got into this discussion by answering a question you asked.
You are exactly right if the property owners win they will be in a very strong position.
I'm sure I would be a hero, and if I had the time and expertise, I would run some of the titles and see if I'm right or not. I don't have standing to maintain a suit, I've not been asked to leave anyone's property. I happen to own property that has beach access, so I can go to the beach anytime I please. I also frequently use a public access and have never had a problem finding a spot on the beach. or been asked to move.
I empathize with the beach front owners. I wouldn't want a bunch of drunks making a bunch of racket in the back of my home either. I think if this is happening they should be able to call the sheriff and he should remove them or arrest them. However, I also believe if people want to sit by the water's edge and enjoy the beach they should be allowed to do so.
Beach Lover
You keep asking for facts, give us your facts and what you base your opinion on.
You and property right opponents have the burden of proof to eliminate or substitute public customary use, with evidence and facts, superior to legally recognized private property right of use, enjoyment, and exclusion 1,000 owners have had, have today in title, and pay property taxes on. I think based on many hundreds of years of historic limits of common-law doctrine of custom, you should learn about for yourself, any one of the many criteria that is not satisfied invalidates a custom claim and I doubt many, if any, of the criteria can be proven on 1,000 Walton owner private properties. Only million$ of tax payers dollars will pay to litigate that.
Do you know how much beach the court ruled on in Tona-Rama? All private county beach property? All private Daytona city beach property? or One commercial parcel with 225 square feet of contested beach property? What other Daytona private property has custom been validated on? Because the court ruling was so lacking in defining custom criteria, as I pointed out previously, I think the best you can say about Tona-Rama is that the court did not dismiss custom as a legal claim to private property out of hand in FL. That's why the bar to take Constitutionally protected private property rights are set so high.
Edited
Beach Comber
You and property right opponents have the burden of proof to eliminate or substitute public customary use, with evidence and facts, superior to legally recognized private property right of use, enjoyment, and exclusion 1,000 owners have had, have today in title, and pay property taxes on. I think based on many hundreds of years of historic limits of common-law doctrine of custom, you should learn about for yourself, any one of the many criteria that is not satisfied invalidates a custom claim and I doubt many, if any, of the criteria can be proven on 1,000 Walton owner private properties. Only million$ of tax payers dollars will pay to litigate that.
Do you know how much beach the court ruled on in Tona-Rama? All private county beach property? All private Daytona city beach property? or One commercial parcel with 225 square feet of contested beach property? What other Daytona private property has custom been validated on? Because the court ruling was so lacking in defining custom criteria, as I pointed out previously, I think the best you can say about Tona-Rama is that the court did not dismiss custom as a legal claim to private property out of hand in FL. That's why the bar to take Constitutionally protected private property rights are set so high.
That's what I figured the same old rhetoric common law this and common law that. I know what the common law says about custom, but if you are so sure you know more than me, educate me, I'm always eager to learn. Do you have some secret source of law, is it Blackstone, Tiffanay of property, wikipedia, what is it? The Court in Florida has already said what they believe the definition of custom is, and that is what I will rely on. As far as I know custom has not been validated on any other Daytona property, or any other property in Florida. I find it incredible that this issue has not been decided in Florida already. I agree that Tona does not define the way to prove custom, but to say the Court merely refused to dismiss custom out of hand is wrong, the Court said the theory of custom exists in Florida and that means it may exist in Walton County. Just imagine, the beaches that I grew going to, and in the good old days were a redneck paradise may decide the future of access to all the beaches in Florida.
Beach Lover
That's what I figured the same old rhetoric common law this and common law that. I know what the common law says about custom, but if you are so sure you know more than me, educate me, I'm always eager to learn. Do you have some secret source of law, is it Blackstone, Tiffanay of property, wikipedia, what is it? The Court in Florida has already said what they believe the definition of custom is, and that is what I will rely on. As far as I know custom has not been validated on any other Daytona property, or any other property in Florida. I find it incredible that this issue has not been decided in Florida already. I agree that Tona does not define the way to prove custom, but to say the Court merely refused to dismiss custom out of hand is wrong, the Court said the theory of custom exists in Florida and that means it may exist in Walton County. Just imagine, the beaches that I grew going to, and in the good old days were a redneck paradise may decide the future of access to all the beaches in Florida.
I know I should keep to little sound bites but to answer your question and try to explain my and many private property owners position I cannot.
You have made it clear you know all that you need to know about custom and its history. "I know what the common law says about custom ...". Same old rhetoric...". There is no secret. Just do the work, ask the questions, and study the history, facts, and law. The information is available if you look. You may not agree with other interpretations but at least you look it up for yourself. The doctrine of custom is ancient (many many centuries not decades). English common law has addressed custom longer than the United States of America has been a county. American jurisprudence has relied on historic English application of custom since 1776. American reverence of individual rights and property rights are cornerstones of the Constitution and the bar to take those individual rights is set very high. Reread the previous discussions, I've asked the questions anyone who is interested in customary rights should ask themselves, and suggested sources for information to base objective opinions, on those histories and facts. Blackstone is a good start.
I doubt that all the property owners will exercise their property rights, rights owners have had and have today, to exclude all people from their property all the time. Especially respectful people owners give “license” to use their property. But owners next to or near public beach perpendicular-thoroughfares and regional public beaches, and there’s 32,369 feet of public beaches for the public to use, have every right to private use, enjoyment, exclusion, and enforcement of the property rights they paid for and pay taxes on each year; just like you do. Commissioners and the TDC should educate the public to respect private properties and if unobtrusively marking the publicly owned beach boundaries, like Walton has done with beach vendor-use areas, helps clarify property boundaries for the public and Sheriff, what’s wrong with that? Then if property is not marked; it is private property and you should respect that. The sky is not falling and it won’t. Demand for the beach in the long term will not drop if some or even all owners want to exercise their property rights. They may have to pay for the use just like at the parks and private renters do now. Public education of beach etiquette, private property rights, and enforcement, is the key - in my opinion.
Right now FL statutes define what signs are needed to mark property boundaries. Commissioners solution; usurp state trespass statutes and ban all signs. And to take private property rights not by prescription, or dedication but by a historically-narrow legal-doctrine of custom because that’s all commissioners have left. It costs commissioners themselves nothing to spend million$ of tax payer dollars to try but what if they fail? You have 1,000 very angry property owners with recognized property rights and angry tax payers who lost million$ for nothing; who all vote too. Maybe commissioners should work with property owners now. You’ll say ya but what if commissioners win? Then the stakes have changed and what individual right is next to claim customary rights on? Public hunting on private property? You may trust commissioners big-brother politics that much but I do not.
I understand those who have their own concept of customary-use based on emotional slogans and voodoo economics at the expense of Constitutional rights, that property owners have today, without knowing what custom has been over the centuries, are frozen in their believes. They have nothing of consequence to lose personally, like property owners do. I will still take that bet on defective property deeds too.
Beach Comber
I know I should keep to little sound bites but to answer your question and try to explain my and many private property owners position I cannot.
You have made it clear you know all that you need to know about custom and its history. "I know what the common law says about custom ...". Same old rhetoric...". There is no secret. Just do the work, ask the questions, and study the history, facts, and law. The information is available if you look. You may not agree with other interpretations but at least you look it up for yourself. The doctrine of custom is ancient (many many centuries not decades). English common law has addressed custom longer than the United States of America has been a county. American jurisprudence has relied on historic English application of custom since 1776. American reverence of individual rights and property rights are cornerstones of the Constitution and the bar to take those individual rights is set very high. Reread the previous discussions, I've asked the questions anyone who is interested in customary rights should ask themselves, and suggested sources for information to base objective opinions, on those histories and facts. Blackstone is a good start.
I doubt that all the property owners will exercise their property rights, rights owners have had and have today, to exclude all people from their property all the time. Especially respectful people owners give “license” to use their property. But owners next to or near public beach perpendicular-thoroughfares and regional public beaches, and there’s 32,369 feet of public beaches for the public to use, have every right to private use, enjoyment, exclusion, and enforcement of the property rights they paid for and pay taxes on each year; just like you do. Commissioners and the TDC should educate the public to respect private properties and if unobtrusively marking the publicly owned beach boundaries, like Walton has done with beach vendor-use areas, helps clarify property boundaries for the public and Sheriff, what’s wrong with that? Then if property is not marked; it is private property and you should respect that. The sky is not falling and it won’t. Demand for the beach in the long term will not drop if some or even all owners want to exercise their property rights. They may have to pay for the use just like at the parks and private renters do now. Public education of beach etiquette, private property rights, and enforcement, is the key - in my opinion.
Right now FL statutes define what signs are needed to mark property boundaries. Commissioners solution; usurp state trespass statutes and ban all signs. And to take private property rights not by prescription, or dedication but by a historically-narrow legal-doctrine of custom because that’s all commissioners have left. It costs commissioners themselves nothing to spend million$ of tax payer dollars to try but what if they fail? You have 1,000 very angry property owners with recognized property rights and angry tax payers who lost million$ for nothing; who all vote too. Maybe commissioners should work with property owners now. You’ll say ya but what if commissioners win? Then the stakes have changed and what individual right is next to claim customary rights on? Public hunting on private property? You may trust commissioners big-brother politics that much but I do not.
I understand those who have their own concept of customary-use based on emotional slogans and voodoo economics at the expense of Constitutional rights, that property owners have today, without knowing what custom has been over the centuries, are frozen in their believes. They have nothing of consequence to lose personally, like property owners do. I will still take that bet on defective property deeds too.
I have done the research and know the history of custom. I also know that the law evolves and you can not simply draw conclusions from history. I also know the Courts in the State of Florida have recognized customary use as a legal doctrine. I have said this entire discussion, that I don't know what the Court will do and neither do you.
While you may believe beach front owners can exclude the public from the beach, and you may be right, I think that is what the Court will tell us eventually. I agree if the Court finds that custom does not exist the owners will be mad, and who could blame them. I'm all for compromise, and I wish the two sides would come together and find a reasonable solution.
My concept of customary use is based on the case law of the State of Florida and other states not on slogans or economics. I haven't mentioned either. As I said, I know the history and the cases have discussed the history and found that custom does exist in Florida. If a resolution is not reached we will see if it exists in Walton County.
Maybe I will hit the lottery tomorrow and have time to run some titles and we will see who is right on the deeds, if not I'll have to wait a few years to retire.
Beach Fanatic
What I find interesting is that there has been no attempt by the County (that I'm aware of) to bring together a contingent of customary use proponents and beachfront owners in an advisory committee of sorts. As was mentioned earlier, Gov. Huckabee proposed some ideas and I'm sure there are others who would participate constructively in discussions. Someone asked me recently if I thought that tourists were the cause of this whole situation. I don't think so, although there is no question that more people multiply the issues. These are some reasons that I think this situation has reached critical mass:
1) More stuff on the beach: tents, umbrellas, huge coolers, "toys/games", food, trash and sometimes much more like: generators, party setups, and so on. You get the idea.
2) More people who believe that they need to set up on the beach from sun up to sun down, thanks to sunscreen, shade devices, huge coolers, see #1.
3) "Reserving" the beach and "Race to the Beach": This isn't about ENJOYING the beach, this is about reserving a substantial section of PRIME beach all day whether the people are using it or not. Vendor setups are a part of this item.
4) Attitudes!!!!! There are plenty of comments about beachfront owner attitudes. What about the people who want to use the beach? Parking in no parking areas, parking in beachfront owner's driveways, using beachfront owner's decks, water, walkovers, equipment, dunes for toileting. Chime in folks. I'm sure there is more.
5) Abuse of dunes: Dogs in dunes, toileting in dunes, game equipment (balls, frisbies, other) in dunes.
I'm sure there is more, but this is enough to get my point across. This isn't just about MORE people, it is about what people feel they are entitled to do on the beach and bring to the beach. Once upon a time, people were respectful of people's property/belongings. People didn't bring more than they could carry easily in one trip. They packed their "stuff" in and packed it out. They cleaned up after themselves. They used a towel or blanket/quilt to sunbathe, they fished or played games AWAY from people who were trying to relax at the beach. They didn't stay from sun up to sun down. They didn't "reserve" their space on the beach. They came, stayed long enough to enjoy swimming, fishing, walking, sunbathing, and then they cleaned up, packed up, and left. In my opinion, for whatever it is worth, THESE and maybe more, are the reasons that we are where we are today.
This is not a one sided issue. It's time that everyone recognizes that there are multiple issues to resolve for all of us to get back to enjoying the beach as friends, neighbors, and guests.
Additions offered by others:
TDC
1) More stuff on the beach: tents, umbrellas, huge coolers, "toys/games", food, trash and sometimes much more like: generators, party setups, and so on. You get the idea.
2) More people who believe that they need to set up on the beach from sun up to sun down, thanks to sunscreen, shade devices, huge coolers, see #1.
3) "Reserving" the beach and "Race to the Beach": This isn't about ENJOYING the beach, this is about reserving a substantial section of PRIME beach all day whether the people are using it or not. Vendor setups are a part of this item.
4) Attitudes!!!!! There are plenty of comments about beachfront owner attitudes. What about the people who want to use the beach? Parking in no parking areas, parking in beachfront owner's driveways, using beachfront owner's decks, water, walkovers, equipment, dunes for toileting. Chime in folks. I'm sure there is more.
5) Abuse of dunes: Dogs in dunes, toileting in dunes, game equipment (balls, frisbies, other) in dunes.
I'm sure there is more, but this is enough to get my point across. This isn't just about MORE people, it is about what people feel they are entitled to do on the beach and bring to the beach. Once upon a time, people were respectful of people's property/belongings. People didn't bring more than they could carry easily in one trip. They packed their "stuff" in and packed it out. They cleaned up after themselves. They used a towel or blanket/quilt to sunbathe, they fished or played games AWAY from people who were trying to relax at the beach. They didn't stay from sun up to sun down. They didn't "reserve" their space on the beach. They came, stayed long enough to enjoy swimming, fishing, walking, sunbathing, and then they cleaned up, packed up, and left. In my opinion, for whatever it is worth, THESE and maybe more, are the reasons that we are where we are today.
This is not a one sided issue. It's time that everyone recognizes that there are multiple issues to resolve for all of us to get back to enjoying the beach as friends, neighbors, and guests.
Additions offered by others:
TDC
Edited
Beach Fanatic
What I find interesting is that there has been no attempt by the County (that I'm aware of) to bring together a contingent of customary use proponents and beachfront owners. As was mentioned earlier, Gov. Huckabee proposed some ideas and I'm sure there are others who would participate constructively in discussions. Someone asked me recently if I thought that tourists were the cause of this whole situation. I don't think so, although there is no question that more people multiply the issues. These are some reasons that I think this situation has reached critical mass:You left out the TDC...
1) More stuff on the beach: tents, umbrellas, huge coolers, "toys/games", food, trash and sometimes much more like generators, party setups, and so on. You get the idea.
2) More people who believe that they need to set up on the beach from sun up to sun down, thanks to sunscreen, shade devices, huge coolers, see #1.
3) "Reserving" the beach and "Race to the Beach": This isn't about ENJOYING the beach, this is about reserving a substantial section of PRIME beach all day whether the people are using it or not. Vendor setups are a part of this item.
4) Attitudes!!!!! There are plenty of comments about beachfront owner attitudes. What about the people who want to use the beach? Parking in no parking areas, parking in beachfront owner's driveways, using beachfront owner's decks, water, walkovers, equipment, dunes for toileting. Chime in folks. I'm sure there is more.
5) Abuse of dunes: Dogs in dunes, toileting in dunes, game equipment (balls, frisbies, other) in dunes.
I'm sure there is more, but this is enough to get my point across. This isn't just about MORE people, it is about what people feel they are entitled to do on the beach and bring to the beach. Once upon a time, people were respectful of people's property/belongings. People didn't bring more than they could carry easily in one trip. They packed their "stuff" in and packed it out. They cleaned up after themselves. They used a towel or blanket/quilt to sunbathe, they fished or played games AWAY from people who were trying to relax at the beach. They didn't stay from sun up to sun down. They didn't "reserve" their space on the beach. They came, stayed long enough to enjoy swimming, fishing, walking, sunbathing, and then the cleaned up, packed up, and left. In my opinion, for whatever it is worth, THESE and maybe more, are the reasons that we are where we are today.
This is not a one sided issue. It's time that everyone recognizes that there are multiple issues to resolve for all of us to get back to enjoying the beach as friends, neighbors, and guests.
Beach Fanatic
You left out the TDC...You're right. I did. Thanks for the addition!
Beach Comber
FactorFiction you are hitting the nail right on the head .
Beach Fanatic
You left out the TDC...
I have met with several beach front homeowners as well as Governor Huckabee and they all love this plan I have proposed. The TDC has beefed up staffing and hopefully they, and the Commissioners will fully embrace this. Sheriff Adkinson very much supports this idea. The volunteer group headed up by Laurie Reichenbach is already making a difference. We now need the TDC and Commissioners to go big with this plan.
July 24, 2016
Dear Commissioners, Sheriff Adkinson and Mr. Tusa,
I would like to offer this suggestion for your consideration to help stem the escalation of issues affecting our beaches in South Walton. I know you are already working on this issue but I think we could create a plan that would improve the enforcement of beach activities to a much higher level.
I have been having a positive dialog with several beach front homeowners to get at the root of the beach issues and clearly we all agree the main seed that started this Customary Use storm was the lack of consistent and solid enforcement of the Beach Activities ordinance. I believe just hiring more staff is not the full answer to the problem.
In deference to the beachfront homeowners, I think we need to create a uniformed, trained beach patrol day and night to regulate behavior that happens on all of the Beaches of South Walton. This is a great opportunity to also educate the public on what is acceptable and what is not. The beachfront homeowners, locals and tourists need a system to get satisfaction that truly works. If I had a loud party happening behind my home late into the night and a load of garbage left behind I would be furious too. As a non-beach front owner I am appalled at the lack of regard I see for our beaches by some people.
Beyond the recent hirings our County really must find the funds to enhance and add to the current enforcement in place. We need an efficient and effective beach patrol day and night to police behavior and educate the public on the rights and wrongs of the beaches (including turtle rules). The patrols would deal with loud noise, people digging deep holes hindering the turtles, unruly behavior. They could be called Stewards or Ambassadors of our beaches. We train them to be public relations specialists as well to give advice and educate beach goers on proper beach etiquette and Beach Activities rules. Night shifts could be 6 to 12am and should be either be walking patrols or on 4 wheelers driving slowly. Day patrols could be in trucks but I would imagine 4 wheelers would be preferable.
You just break up South Walton Beaches minus the state parks into distinctly named and defined zones and Beach Ambassadors work shifts in each zone. Each zone has a separate phone number for Beachfront homeowners and anyone to call when there is an issue. The calls are routed not to the Sheriffs Department but to the actual people working the shifts so they may respond quickly. This creates a first line of defense and takes a tremendous amount of pressure off the Sheriffs Department. If things get out of hand in a given situation the Beach Ambassadorteam is the liaison with the Sheriffs department and calls them.
Much like the lifeguard teams these Beach Ambassadors are properly trained, uniformed representatives of our community. They would be proud teams charged with informing the public and regulating our beach activities. Certainly the people working the beaches would become known and appreciated for their work by homeowners, locals and guests of our beaches. This creates a host of job opportunities for our County as well. And further, these people would be great candidates for future employment with the Sheriffs Department after their service to our beaches.
Clearly the public relations element of them being ambassadors of information should qualify the funding for this program could come from the TDC.
I sincerely hope these suggestions are worthy of consideration. I am happy to work in any capacity to help.
Very best,
Dave Rauschkolb
Beach Fanatic
I have met with several beach front homeowners as well as Governor Huckabee and they all love this plan I have proposed. The TDC has beefed up staffing and hopefully they, and the Commissioners will fully embrace this. Sheriff Adkinson very much supports this idea. The volunteer group headed up by Laurie Reichenbach is already making a difference. We now need the TDC and Commissioners to go big with this plan.Sounds like a move in the correct direction.
July 24, 2016
Dear Commissioners, Sheriff Adkinson and Mr. Tusa,
I would like to offer this suggestion for your consideration to help stem the escalation of issues affecting our beaches in South Walton. I know you are already working on this issue but I think we could create a plan that would improve the enforcement of beach activities to a much higher level.
I have been having a positive dialog with several beach front homeowners to get at the root of the beach issues and clearly we all agree the main seed that started this Customary Use storm was the lack of consistent and solid enforcement of the Beach Activities ordinance. I believe just hiring more staff is not the full answer to the problem.
In deference to the beachfront homeowners, I think we need to create a uniformed, trained beach patrol day and night to regulate behavior that happens on all of the Beaches of South Walton. This is a great opportunity to also educate the public on what is acceptable and what is not. The beachfront homeowners, locals and tourists need a system to get satisfaction that truly works. If I had a loud party happening behind my home late into the night and a load of garbage left behind I would be furious too. As a non-beach front owner I am appalled at the lack of regard I see for our beaches by some people.
Beyond the recent hirings our County really must find the funds to enhance and add to the current enforcement in place. We need an efficient and effective beach patrol day and night to police behavior and educate the public on the rights and wrongs of the beaches (including turtle rules). The patrols would deal with loud noise, people digging deep holes hindering the turtles, unruly behavior. They could be called Stewards or Ambassadors of our beaches. We train them to be public relations specialists as well to give advice and educate beach goers on proper beach etiquette and Beach Activities rules. Night shifts could be 6 to 12am and should be either be walking patrols or on 4 wheelers driving slowly. Day patrols could be in trucks but I would imagine 4 wheelers would be preferable.
You just break up South Walton Beaches minus the state parks into distinctly named and defined zones and Beach Ambassadors work shifts in each zone. Each zone has a separate phone number for Beachfront homeowners and anyone to call when there is an issue. The calls are routed not to the Sheriffs Department but to the actual people working the shifts so they may respond quickly. This creates a first line of defense and takes a tremendous amount of pressure off the Sheriffs Department. If things get out of hand in a given situation the Beach Ambassadorteam is the liaison with the Sheriffs department and calls them.
Much like the lifeguard teams these Beach Ambassadors are properly trained, uniformed representatives of our community. They would be proud teams charged with informing the public and regulating our beach activities. Certainly the people working the beaches would become known and appreciated for their work by homeowners, locals and guests of our beaches. This creates a host of job opportunities for our County as well. And further, these people would be great candidates for future employment with the Sheriffs Department after their service to our beaches.
Clearly the public relations element of them being ambassadors of information should qualify the funding for this program could come from the TDC.
I sincerely hope these suggestions are worthy of consideration. I am happy to work in any capacity to help.
Very best,
Dave Rauschkolb
Beach Fanatic
Enforcement (the lack there of), has been cited numerous times on SoWal and other social media as one of the biggest problems.
Beach Fanatic
What does TDC Code Enforcement do?
Beach Fanatic
I have met with several beach front homeowners as well as Governor Huckabee and they all love this plan I have proposed. The TDC has beefed up staffing and hopefully they, and the Commissioners will fully embrace this. Sheriff Adkinson very much supports this idea. The volunteer group headed up by Laurie Reichenbach is already making a difference. We now need the TDC and Commissioners to go big with this plan.Good start but the Vendor problem wasn't addressed...Because the vendors have taken over public beaches and adjoining areas, which has caused the locals and tourist to spread out east and west to fine open ,and quiet spaces.IMO this is what caused the homeowners problems..remove vendors or have them set up farher back on the public beach thus giving tourist a place to enjoy their day and NOT SPREAD out to homeowners backyards..
July 24, 2016
Dear Commissioners, Sheriff Adkinson and Mr. Tusa,
I would like to offer this suggestion for your consideration to help stem the escalation of issues affecting our beaches in South Walton. I know you are already working on this issue but I think we could create a plan that would improve the enforcement of beach activities to a much higher level.
I have been having a positive dialog with several beach front homeowners to get at the root of the beach issues and clearly we all agree the main seed that started this Customary Use storm was the lack of consistent and solid enforcement of the Beach Activities ordinance. I believe just hiring more staff is not the full answer to the problem.
In deference to the beachfront homeowners, I think we need to create a uniformed, trained beach patrol day and night to regulate behavior that happens on all of the Beaches of South Walton. This is a great opportunity to also educate the public on what is acceptable and what is not. The beachfront homeowners, locals and tourists need a system to get satisfaction that truly works. If I had a loud party happening behind my home late into the night and a load of garbage left behind I would be furious too. As a non-beach front owner I am appalled at the lack of regard I see for our beaches by some people.
Beyond the recent hirings our County really must find the funds to enhance and add to the current enforcement in place. We need an efficient and effective beach patrol day and night to police behavior and educate the public on the rights and wrongs of the beaches (including turtle rules). The patrols would deal with loud noise, people digging deep holes hindering the turtles, unruly behavior. They could be called Stewards or Ambassadors of our beaches. We train them to be public relations specialists as well to give advice and educate beach goers on proper beach etiquette and Beach Activities rules. Night shifts could be 6 to 12am and should be either be walking patrols or on 4 wheelers driving slowly. Day patrols could be in trucks but I would imagine 4 wheelers would be preferable.
You just break up South Walton Beaches minus the state parks into distinctly named and defined zones and Beach Ambassadors work shifts in each zone. Each zone has a separate phone number for Beachfront homeowners and anyone to call when there is an issue. The calls are routed not to the Sheriffs Department but to the actual people working the shifts so they may respond quickly. This creates a first line of defense and takes a tremendous amount of pressure off the Sheriffs Department. If things get out of hand in a given situation the Beach Ambassadorteam is the liaison with the Sheriffs department and calls them.
Much like the lifeguard teams these Beach Ambassadors are properly trained, uniformed representatives of our community. They would be proud teams charged with informing the public and regulating our beach activities. Certainly the people working the beaches would become known and appreciated for their work by homeowners, locals and guests of our beaches. This creates a host of job opportunities for our County as well. And further, these people would be great candidates for future employment with the Sheriffs Department after their service to our beaches.
Clearly the public relations element of them being ambassadors of information should qualify the funding for this program could come from the TDC.
I sincerely hope these suggestions are worthy of consideration. I am happy to work in any capacity to help.
Very best,
Dave Rauschkolb
Beach Lover
I have met with several beach front homeowners as well as Governor Huckabee and they all love this plan I have proposed. The TDC has beefed up staffing and hopefully they, and the Commissioners will fully embrace this. Sheriff Adkinson very much supports this idea. The volunteer group headed up by Laurie Reichenbach is already making a difference. We now need the TDC and Commissioners to go big with this plan.
July 24, 2016
Dear Commissioners, Sheriff Adkinson and Mr. Tusa, ...
Dave R, July 24, 2016 was a while ago. Did you send this to each of the Walton leadership in July? What was Their response? Nada, I’d guess. What was wrong with Gov Huckabee's Beach Share proposal back in April 2016? When did you meet with beachfront property owners and Gov Huckabee? Recently? Since the commissioners sign and customary-use ordinances? Is enforcement independent of custom claim on private property? Dave R, any answers?
Are you suggesting to respect all property owner’s rights, like your property, and beach enforcement too? If so, I and I think many beach owners, can agree - for once. I think Beach Activities would need to be much better defined. Public use of private beach property would be licensed or permitted by the owner for, let’s say 50 sq ft of a 50 foot wide property or 25% of the of the private beach frontage, or some minority area. One towel or chair, 6 foot umbrella, and 4 cu ft storage container per person. No sand pits, only headsets or earphones, no alcohol, no animals, no trash, no vehicles except in an emergency. Between one hour after sun rise and one hour before sunset. If Walton enforcement does not meet certain metrics or standards of enforcement, then the owner can revoke their public use license.
If you are suggesting increased enforcement if owners permanently give away their rights or commissioners take the Constitutional property rights owners have today; that’s an issue. That’s THE issue. Given the Sheriff’s and commissioners lack of leadership and enforcement; what have commissioners suggested other than legislation and litigation(?), very few property owners would trust them not to selectively or effectively enforce any public beach rules, like today, and it will take extraordinary effort over years to prove to owners that commissioners will represent all citizens and do the job needed to gain owner’s trust. Until then very few property owners would risk their losing the property rights they have today. Hope is not a plan - or leadership.
Here’s an idea I heard from a military guy I think is brilliant. Military concept of “constant stare”. Like the casinos have but on a larger scale. Have 360 deg day/night IR cameras every half mile (52 locations) or whatever it takes to cover the 26 miles on 50 foot or however high towers on the right of way or public accesses that fed video back to a command post monitored and recorded 24/7/365 by one or two people with software to ID dogs, people too far out in the water, sand pits, fireworks, turtles, outline public and private property boundaries, etc. A faction of the employees needed to do the same job, keeps Walton vehicles and tire tracks off private property, and on the road for quicker response. Provide public wifi service for a fee to help pay for it. Put the video on the internet like SoWal Seagrove Cam Live Webcam - Seagrove Beach SkyCam | SoWal.com. For much less than a tax payer paid customary-use lawsuit (Multi-Million$?) or an army of code enforcement (at what $40K with benefits a year each?) you could have “constant stare”.
If you are talking about respecting private property rights, redefining and educating how the public and private owners respect each other, enforce it with measurable standards; and hold commissioner accountable, we may make some progress. Commissioners shouldn't risk tax payers million$ in litigation and maybe get nothing in return except empowered, angry, property owners. I’m glad you didn’t proclaim "This sand is your sand, this sand is my sand" again, because regardless of the outcome legally it is always property owner’s sand/property. I know many property owners would be willing to help commissioners understand the property owners concerns and seek solutions, if commissioners would only ask and listen.
Edited
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