Eleven Fla Counties forbid teaching of Evolution

I have no problem with a teacher who teaches the facts--the proven laws of science. I also have no problem with a teacher who presents the theories, saying, "Here is what we have evidence for; this is true. Here is what we don't know. Here are some ideas about what we think may have happened, and here is evidence or lack thereof for those theories." That teacher will teach my child to think critically, and I'm all for it.

:roll: same here.

Did any of you see the young girl who had four legs and four arms? I think she was in India. In theory, she redefined Homo Sapien. She couldn't walk and was having surgery to remove the additional limbs, so that she would be "normal." Now she was a case where a gene clicked a little differently from the norm, and she physically had eight limbs, but her body had not adapted to having the extra limbs. What happens if she hooks up with a six limbed person and they create offspring which are able to adapt and use these extra limbs? We outcast people who are "different," rather than embracing change. Sometimes, I see us preserving that which is, but we have to question the opportunity costs of something else coming about from that change. It's a tough balance.

Back in college, a friend of mine, whom I haven't seen since, was a genetic research biologist. His work was with chickens, and he was working with trying to identify genetic properties. I never saw his actual work, but some of the things he says they were doing included trying to make four legged chickens in order to identify which gene determined the number of legs. Science is filled with some interesting craziness.

I have known lots of science teachers--including the head of the science department at one college--who are qualified to teach ID.

I just cannot imagine this to be true in our public elementary schools. maybe I am wrong. once again, I will state my feelings on teaching a christian based "story" - no thanks. and story is all it is, though it does take from science what it deems convenient, and doesn't threaten their belief system...



I have no problem with a teacher who teaches the facts--the proven laws of science (I hope not). I also have no problem with a teacher who presents the theories, saying, "Here is what we have evidence for; this is true. Here is what we don't know. Here are some ideas about what we think may have happened, and here is evidence or lack thereof for those theories." That teacher will teach my child to think critically, and I'm all for it.

Nohall, I have said many times above that a good teacher will teach a child to think critically by teaching the scientific theory and facts as we know it today, plus a good review of alternative evolution belief "stories" - and I'm not talking about ID, I'm talking about any of the stories that have been proposed. but teaching the details of these stories is best left to philosophy, sunday school, etc.

the thing with ID that really creeps me out is that someone is choosing which scientific evidences they like, rearranging facts and theories, as needed to fit their religious belief system. they are taking science and twisting it around and adding crap to it. why? because for some reason, they are fearful. for some reason they are threatened by scientific truth. it may undermine their church! OMG!!! but, of course science does not care about their church, and it doesn't discriminate against them or any group.


the scientist does not think like this, thank God. the scientist looks for truth, and is not influenced by any group. why can't we accept the truths uncovered by science and be grateful for them? scientific discovery does nothing to undermine God. in fact, science advances mankind's understanding of all things, and through discovery we can more deeply appreciate the awesomeness of a most magnificent God. Science can be accepted as truth by people from all faiths, countries, cultures, etc. it does not serve christians. it serves all.

ID and evangelical Christianity are way too intimately connected for me to be comfortable with anybody being able to successfully teach the concept in public school without a Christian slant.

and this here is my question. is a science teacher really taught ID in college, and thus qualified to deliver this idea to children? I am seriously curious.

do we still have science teachers?

I don't necessarily believe that my greatx800 grandma was a chimp, but I do believe there is common ancestry and science has proven there is a great deal of similarity in our DNA - 95% or so.

If you don't believe in evolution, how do you explain all of the various fossils we have found? Homo habilis, neanderthal, etc.

I don't believe that the homo habilis, neanderthal, etc. come directly from apes. We have found no link between them. We share a lot of DNA with a lot of mammals, but that doesn't mean we descended from dolphins, either.

Nohall, I have said many times above that a good teacher will teach a child to think critically by teaching the scientific theory and facts as we know it today, plus a good review of alternative evolution belief "stories" - and I'm not talking about ID, I'm talking about any of the stories that have been proposed. but teaching the details of these stories is best left to philosophy, sunday school, etc.

the thing with ID that really creeps me out is that someone is choosing which scientific evidences they like, rearranging facts and theories, as needed to fit their religious belief system. they are taking science and twisting it around and adding crap to it. why? because for some reason, they are fearful. for some reason they are threatened by scientific truth. it may undermine their church! OMG!!! but, of course science does not care about their church, and it doesn't discriminate against them or any group.


the scientist does not think like this, thank God. the scientist looks for truth, and is not influenced by any group. why can't we accept the truths uncovered by science and be grateful for them? scientific discovery does nothing to undermine God. in fact, science advances mankind's understanding of all things, and through discovery we can more deeply appreciate the awesomeness of a most magnificent God. Science can be accepted as truth by people from all faiths, countries, cultures, etc. it does not serve christians. it serves all.

You and I are really on the same page, when it comes down to it.

The ID teachers I know don't think the way you describe, either. The facts aren't rearranged at all. The only difference is this: instead of believing that it came about by happenstance, it came about by design. As someone who believes in an intelligent designer, I don't dispute the method. Heck, evolution itself doesn't scare me as a Christian, and doesn't conflict with what I believe the Bible says about creation. (Go ahead--ask me. ) I just don't buy it based on what we have and don't have, and I simply don't believe that any of it was accidental.

I mentioned that one of the professors I knew was a Christian and the department chair of the science department. He told me that the more he studied science and saw the perfection of how it functioned, the more he believed that it had to be intelligently designed. It was too perfect to be an accident.

and this here is my question. is a science teacher really taught ID in college, and thus qualified to deliver this idea to children? I am seriously curious.

do we still have science teachers?

I'll try to get an answer for you from the science ed people at school. I only know that they are taught methods of teaching science--how to conduct an experiment, how to observe reactions/results, critical thinking, etc. I don't know what they teach about teaching theories. I'll ask if anyone in my class is a science person, and if not, I'll email the head of the department.

I don't believe that the homo habilis, neanderthal, etc. come directly from apes. We have found no link between them. We share a lot of DNA with a lot of mammals, but that doesn't mean we descended from dolphins, either.



You and I are really on the same page, when it comes down to it.

The ID teachers I know don't think the way you describe, either. The facts aren't rearranged at all. The only difference is this: instead of believing that it came about by happenstance, it came about by design. As someone who believes in an intelligent designer, I don't dispute the method. Heck, evolution itself doesn't scare me as a Christian, and doesn't conflict with what I believe the Bible says about creation. (Go ahead--ask me. ) I just don't buy it based on what we have and don't have, and I simply don't believe that any of it was accidental.

I mentioned that one of the professors I knew was a Christian and the department chair of the science department. He told me that the more he studied science and saw the perfection of how it functioned, the more he believed that it had to be intelligently designed. It was too perfect to be an accident.

we may be on the same page as far as what should be presented in the classroom. but, it seems we are at extreme ends of the ID debate. which is certainly just fine and dandy - I suppose we shall get past it!

I guess what I am really trying to say is this: Intelligent Design is just a term that was used to replace "creation science", for political reasons (as an attempt to get into the classroom as a serious evolution theory, after a series of local and federal court cases, etc etc - long time line of laughable events). Whenever I hear about christian groups pushing for ID, I just cringe. Let them believe what the hail they want to believe - I really do not care. But back away from our education and science programs. Leave it to the pros. Take it from the Pope - a pretty big christian who doesn't even feel the need to define creation. Scientists know their stuff. They are truly not interested in the agenda of the evangelist, or any other group. They have serious work to do.

that's just my opinion of course. and maybe not even a well informed one. But, I have read the stuff over the years, and listened to the ridiculous claims to science by ID. I do not buy it.

Nohall - no one said that evolution theory was a completely formulated theory and fact. but, its the best we got. by far. the evidence is definitely there to make the basis of evolution theory scientific and factual.



The rise of creationism is politics, pure and simple; it represents one issue (and by no means the major concern) of the resurgent evangelical right. Arguments that seemed kooky just a decade ago have reentered the mainstream.

??Creation science? has not entered the curriculum for a reason so simple and so basic that we often forget to mention it: because it is false, and because good teachers understand exactly why it is false. What could be more destructive of that most fragile yet most precious commodity in our entire intellectual heritage?good teaching?than a bill forcing honorable teachers to sully their sacred trust by granting equal treatment to a doctrine not only known to be false, but calculated to undermine any general understanding of science as an enterprise??

Stephen Jay Gould, palentologist and educator, harvard university

I'm having trouble with the Ark, and the Virgin birth, but I'm not fighting with the church about what's being taught in Sunday school.

Bob, I, too, am having trouble with the Ark, but, as I previously stated, I think it would be easy enough for a virgin to give birth.

I'm having trouble with the Ark, and the Virgin birth, but I'm not fighting with the church about what's being taught in Sunday school.

the ark is absolutely true! JK. I wasn't there so I can't really say.



nohall - I know I'm sounding like a christian basher. please don't get that idea. I am a christian, born and raised, with lots of love for my Italian culture and religion. but, to me all that is personal and does not have to do with evolution and school issues. my belief system was ingrained in me as a tiny child, and its very important to me - and that's all I am going to say about that, because it is personal and not relevant to this discussion.

its a non-issue if parents raise their children with open minds and teach them about being a true citizen of the world. IMO, ID has nothing to do with real world, especially beyond their little minds or towns in the US.

Once again, I want my child exposed to the education of world religions, which includes a zillion fascinating creation stories, including ID. in the appropriate class setting. outside science.

The Ark is a wonderful story, if a little scary when God gets that angry at the world, and I was taught that it is a real story. It has its own reason to exist in the bible. This won't hurt my child's view of the real world if he's taught the same. But, ID has a real potential to teach him that God is a certain kind of right wing christian God and that science is not real. sorry. na ga da.

but, that is just my opinion. and the more we discuss it here, the stronger I feel about it. in the past, I've tried to just ignore such issues. I guess I have to take a stance as a parent.

the ark is absolutely true! JK. I wasn't there so I can't really say.



nohall - I know I'm sounding like a christian basher. please don't get that idea. I am a christian, born and raised, with lots of love for my Italian culture and religion. but, to me all that is personal and does not have to do with evolution and school issues. my belief system was ingrained in me as a tiny child, and its very important to me - and that's all I am going to say about that, because it is personal and not relevant to this discussion.

its a non-issue if parents raise their children with open minds and teach them about being a true citizen of the world. IMO, ID has nothing to do with real world, especially beyond their little minds or towns in the US.

Once again, I want my child exposed to the education of world religions, which includes a zillion fascinating creation stories, including ID. in the appropriate class setting. outside science.

The Ark is a wonderful story, if a little scary when God gets that angry at the world, and I was taught that it is a real story. It has its own reason to exist in the bible. This won't hurt my child's view of the real world if he's taught the same. But, ID has a real potential to teach him that God is a certain kind of right wing christian God and that science is not real. sorry. na ga da.

but, that is just my opinion. and the more we discuss it here, the stronger I feel about it. in the past, I've tried to just ignore such issues. I guess I have to take a stance as a parent.

Amen!

Seriously, I do understand what you are saying. We have a daily struggle of what we want our kids to learn and not learn, and HOW they learn it. Sadly, so many people who are pushing ID are not pushing it for the right reasons, but, as you said, a way to try and get that Christian foot in the public secular school door. If it was a tolerant Christian foot coming through the door, fine, but I think time and time agan we have only seen the agenda pushers, which puts us immediately into defensive mode. I have to trust my gut when my alarm bells go off!

...

The Ark is a wonderful story, if a little scary when God gets that angry at the world, and I was taught that it is a real story. It has its own reason to exist in the bible. This won't hurt my child's view of the real world if he's taught the same. But, ID has a real potential to teach him that God is a certain kind of right wing christian God and that science is not real. sorry. na ga da.
...

Who knows? I sure don't. I do remember after the mess of Hurricane Katrina messing up NOLA, there were people saying that God did it to punish the people in NOLA for all the sinning going on there. The story of the Ark, reminds me much of what those people were saying in NOLA.

its a non-issue if parents raise their children with open minds and teach them about being a true citizen of the world. IMO, ID has nothing to do with real world, especially beyond their little minds or towns in the US.

Once again, I want my child exposed to the education of world religions, which includes a zillion fascinating creation stories, including ID. in the appropriate class setting. outside science.

The Ark is a wonderful story, if a little scary when God gets that angry at the world, and I was taught that it is a real story. It has its own reason to exist in the bible. This won't hurt my child's view of the real world if he's taught the same. But, ID has a real potential to teach him that God is a certain kind of right wing christian God and that science is not real. sorry. na ga da.

but, that is just my opinion. and the more we discuss it here, the stronger I feel about it. in the past, I've tried to just ignore such issues. I guess I have to take a stance as a parent.

Great posts Toots. I also have my own personal belief system and it has nothing to do with the fact that I want HARD SCIENCE taught to my children in school. "Ideas" belong somewhere else.

I have a second grader who would rather study his umpteen animal dictionaries than go to the park. We do make him go outside and play, but he is who he is, and let me tell you this kid might be hardwired to be a scientist. And guess what? This country, this world, NEEDS scientists.

For example: If man-made global warming is indeed happening, the world's researchers (and the people who decide to listen to them) might make the difference between global disaster and a tolerable future. And you know what? I wonder if THAT is the ark story, and instead of something that has already happened, God put it in the Bible as a warning, as an allegory of what we might do to ourselves. I don't know, I just wonder. If man-made global warming is happening, I don't think God is going to swoop down and rescue us. He would want us to use our brains (and science) to make it better. While we pray.

TFT, I like FACTS being taught to our youth, too. However, without presenting ideas, we are limiting our children's education. You cannot fully teach science without teaching ideas. Facts known to humans, don't just occur one day in a school book. Every proven fact in science, begins as a thought or idea. That is step one in proving a fact. We need to teach or young scientists to think for themselves, and give them the tools of the search for knowledge, in order for them to become scientists.

just my two Euros.

TFT, I like FACTS being taught to our youth, too. However, without presenting ideas, we are limiting our children's education. You cannot fully teach science without teaching ideas. Facts known to humans, don't just occur one day in a school book. Every proven fact in science, begins as a thought or idea. That is step one in proving a fact. We need to teach or young scientists to think for themselves, and give them the tools of the search for knowledge, in order for them to become scientists.

just my two Euros.

Hey, thanks for the Euros! :funn:

I like your IDEAS, SJ, I think you would make a great philosophy teacher.

I have too many questions to be a decent philosophy teacher, but thanks. I once took a philosophy class which was focused on proving the highly-praised worldly philosophers wrong. It was one of the best classes I have ever taken.

TFT, I like FACTS being taught to our youth, too. However, without presenting ideas, we are limiting our children's education. You cannot fully teach science without teaching ideas. Facts known to humans, don't just occur one day in a school book. Every proven fact in science, begins as a thought or idea. That is step one in proving a fact. We need to teach or young scientists to think for themselves, and give them the tools of the search for knowledge, in order for them to become scientists.

just my two Euros.

great point SJ. I am sure I can speak for TFT and say that we definitely agree with teaching ideas in science and in all areas of curriculum. I too have a future scientist on my hands (I have to make him leave his space toys and dinosaur movies and animal books and earth crust experiments, etc, and make him go outside and try to ride a bike). I hope he gets to learn everything under the sun that helps him think critically and think creatively, and love the process of learning more and more. btw, he has received a real love of learning in his little montessori school - they have encouraged and supported all of his interests in the make up of the universe, from solar system to volcanoes to geography and you name it. I don't think they would ever limit his understanding in any way.

However, when science is the subject at hand, I am quite confident that a christian group's recent writings and ideas of creation will not be anywhere near the core of the curriculum. and this is all I ask. he wants to be a scientist, and he will be one in some capacity. hopefully he will seek only truth.

you know, 6 years ago when I heard about intelligent design and certain groups trying to implement this in the schools, court cases, etc, I thought it was kind of sad, but I didn't really care or attempt to understand the "idea" they were trying to pass off as science. I have a 6 year old now. I do care greatly, as you can see. Funny how things change quite drastically when a kid pops onto the scene.

I have too many questions to be a decent philosophy teacher, but thanks. I once took a philosophy class which was focused on proving the highly-praised worldly philosophers wrong. It was one of the best classes I have ever taken.

you would be an outstanding philosophy teacher by making your students ask too many questions as you do.

my brother is a priest who has a few master's degrees in philosophy and theology. even though he is a devout/conservative catholic priest, he loved learning about philosophers, and was totally drawn into these classes, the discussions, and the opening of the mind to all kinds of thought processes and possibilities.

this kind of education is so important to church leaders because their minds must be wide open at all times to understand the nature of mankind. at the same time, his respect for mankind's scientific endeavor is incredible. during his first assignment at a huge church in Bham, he taught religion in a k-12 catholic/montessori school. he loved the experience. and he saw first hand that even in a catholic (very christian) school where many ideas were presented in the curriculum, the science classes and other courses were not in the least guided by catholic dogma. they were pure as far as making sure the best possible education was presented without bias. it's all very interesting how the church perceives no threat by science. there is no conflict. and there is no substitute for evolution theory or any other academic pursuit. keeping it real and honest for our children is just the most important thing we can do for them.

I have a question about science teachers. I don't really know any. Are there science teachers who believe in or accept ID, but must stick to the facts in the classroom?

or are there science teachers who not only believe in ID, but are trained to teach the material, so they use this as their content when teaching evolution? do they get to make that choice?

what are science teachers trained and/or prepared to teach in the classroom? maybe this is the real question.

I would say most teachers believe in God, but they aren't going to teach about God. So, if a teacher believes in ID, an argument for the existence of God, does that mean she is going to teach it in place of evolution?

Is ID really accepted by schools now?

I'm confused.

I have too many questions to be a decent philosophy teacher, but thanks. I once took a philosophy class which was focused on proving the highly-praised worldly philosophers wrong. It was one of the best classes I have ever taken.

My best philosophy professors were that ones who had way more questions than answers. The ones that had all of the answers were not only rare but made the worst philosophy professors IMO. I always looked at philosophy as the study of possibilities for things unknown.

I keep swearing that I won't even LOOK at this thread any more.


I've already said this, but I'll say it again: I (and I'm a born-again, Southern Baptist by birth, Calvinist by preordination, Bible-totin' Christian) agree wholeheartedly that ID falls under the category of Metaphysics, which is a branch of PHILOSOPHY, not physical science.

I am currently a candidate for a Master of Arts in Teaching at a fully accredited college, which means I take a whole buttload of education classes with a buttload of teachers. So far, I have yet to meet a teacher in those classes who wasn't raised in a church in the Bible belt (statistically, probably Southern Baptist) and who doesn't believe that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Intelligent Design. I have also yet to meet one that disagrees with teaching evolution. Just last night one of these teachers told about taking her son to Fernbank, where he read something about evolution on one of the displays. Apparently, that had not been covered in his science class so far, so this mother (CHRISTIAN mother) taught him about it herself. Natural selection and adaptation has been evidenced and verified over and over, and I don't know a single Christian teacher who cares to dispute it.

I mentioned this debate in class last night, and the 10 students (all of us were Christians, and most of us raised Southern Baptist) and my professor (an elementary school principal and big shot expert in critical thinking) all said the exact same things you're saying: A good teacher teaches the facts first. S/he also teaches ALL of the scientific theories and teaches the students to think critically about ALL of them. Teach evolution, but bring up the missing link which is still missing. Bible stories (or Native American, or whatever) are best put in the context of a history class or comparative religion, but if they come up in science class, look at them SCIENTIFICALLY and have the parents teach religion.

Absolutely NONE of my colleagues wanted anyone teaching their child about Christianity in a public school.

The only place where I know that ID is actually taught are in private Christian schools. However, I know dozens--scores!--of highly intelligent educators who believe that the universe was intelligently designed.

I have my dander up over this thread because it seems to be the common belief on SoWal.com that all Christians believe the same way that the agenda-pushers believe.

They don't. We don't. I don't.

The faith I embrace is about love, abundant life, freedom, and truth. I was taught to love God with all my heart, soul, MIND, and strength, and nothing that can be proved in the physical world is going to run contrary to that. If it turns out that we did, in fact, descend from the apes, it won't harm my faith. I pity the Christians that believe they are not allowed to ask questions or to function in the physical world.

I have a question about science teachers. I don't really know any. Are there science teachers who believe in or accept ID, but must stick to the facts in the classroom?

or are there science teachers who not only believe in ID, but are trained to teach the material, so they use this as their content when teaching evolution? do they get to make that choice?

what are science teachers trained and/or prepared to teach in the classroom? maybe this is the real question.

I would say most teachers believe in God, but they aren't going to teach about God. So, if a teacher believes in ID, an argument for the existence of God, does that mean she is going to teach it in place of evolution?

Is ID really accepted by schools now?

I'm confused.

Toots,
I pulled out my Teaching Children Science that i still have from college!

Granted it is a very general book. I saw nothing of ID in it. The BIG BANG was mentioned and Evolution was listed at a type of Biology. That is all.
I did teach 8th grade science for one semester but this was not in the subject matter for that time of year.

I keep swearing that I won't even LOOK at this thread any more.

​

I have my dander up over this thread because it seems to be the common belief on SoWal.com that all Christians believe the same way that the agenda-pushers believe.

They don't. We don't. I don't.

The faith I embrace is about love, abundant life, freedom, and truth. I was taught to love God with all my heart, soul, MIND, and strength, and nothing that can be proved in the physical world is going to run contrary to that. If it turns out that we did, in fact, descend from the apes, it won't harm my faith. I pity the Christians that believe they are not allowed to ask questions or to function in the physical world.

NoHall, very well said. Thank you for doing so. I know many people dont post their feelings on controversial threads on this board b/c they dont want someone not to like them, or they may disagree with a fellow wench, or they just dont like controversy. I used to read and not post on certain threads but I now feel that my thoughts are just as important even if others dont agree.

I also believe that some people think that b/c you are a Christian then you are the ultra agenda pushers. Just like if you are a Republican then you simply must be a "right wing nutjob or evil conservative" or a Democrat you are a "far left liberal" I think many of us are just a good combo of both...


Now back to the ID subject matter.

I keep swearing that I won't even LOOK at this thread any more.

​

Absolutely NONE of my colleagues wanted anyone teaching their child about Christianity in a public school.

and this is all that I have asked as well.

The only place where I know that ID is actually taught are in private Christian schools. However, I know dozens--scores!--of highly intelligent educators who believe that the universe was intelligently designed. this was never the issue - what you believe is what you believe - that is great and wonderful.

I have my dander up over this thread because it seems to be the common belief on SoWal.com that all Christians believe the same way that the agenda-pushers believe.

why would you think this? I am a christian - born and raised (therefore no need to be born again). I do not think this at all.


I pity the Christians that believe they are not allowed to ask questions or to function in the physical world.

I don't know what you mean by this.. please explain. who isn't allowed to do what?

if you haven't learned anything by this discussion, then indeed it is a trainwreck of a thread. I've learned quite a lot! more about ID than I ever wanted to know. but at least now I know and I am glad.

In the book, The First and Last Freedom, by J. Krishnamurti, Aldous Huxley writes in the Foreword, "An edcuation that teaches us not how, but what to think, is an education that calls for a governing class of pastors and masters."