'Fair' income taxation

Do you mean straight-up federal income taxes and "here is my paycheck income" only? Not anything else? No deductions, tax benefits, write-offs, retirement etc. but the starting rate?

I voted based on that being the "starting rate" that would get adjusted and that I pay 0 state income tax. Think the combo of state and federal should equal that.

I think my current tax rate is fair (and yes, I am one of those who actually PAY taxes, but I use every loophole and credit as intended).

30ashopper

Need something for free? Call the firm of Pelosi and Reid - 59 years of politricking at your service.

Free stuff for businesses & corporations or just free stuff for individuals?

I skewed your poll, sorry. I am a flat/fair tax person. 😀

Do you mean straight-up federal income taxes and "here is my paycheck income" only? Not anything else? No deductions, tax benefits, write-offs, retirement etc. but the starting rate?

I voted based on that being the "starting rate" that would get adjusted and that I pay 0 state income tax. Think the combo of state and federal should equal that.

I think my current tax rate is fair (and yes, I am one of those who actually PAY taxes, but I use every loophole and credit as intended).

I guess I was thinking along the lines of effective federal tax rates on personal income. State income / use taxes are a different matter.

My rationale was that was a good starting amount to "pay" both the state and federal government for the items and services I receive - based on my "paycheck" income.

Am I following the spirit of the thread?

My rationale was that was a good starting amount to "pay" both the state and federal government for the items and services I receive - based on my "paycheck" income.

Am I following the spirit of the thread?

Well I think it means you are stingy and rich and should pay more. :clap:

Cool, I have a partner in the 0% category!

So far, 2 of 9 say Zero taxes on $100K.

This is an important philosophical position: the belief that we should make it as individuals--protect ourselves/families only--anything for community/society/government should be voluntary.

I don't agree w/ this position, but it seems to be widespread. It ignores the fact that humans are social animals that always have, & always will, live in societies/communities.

A lot of our current political debate centers around trying to find the proper balance for what individuals/families should do for themselves & what we as a community/society should do collectively for one another.

Even Libertarians (I think) support taxes to support a common defense, the state dept., & the treasury dept. Some might even support "socialized" funding for roads & highways. But the 2 saying Zero taxes in this poll are Ultra-Libertarians, I guess.

I would have thought a liberal would have selected 50% since they support tax and spend initiatives, logically they would want to pay for it.

Andrew, who are these liberals you describe? You talk about them and their beliefs on many threads but I have yet to actually meet one.

I skewed your poll, sorry. I am a flat/fair tax person. 😀

So you want to pay a national sales tax of 30%-40% plus your mortgage interest will be non-deductible?

FactCheck.org: Unspinning the FairTax

:rolling:

So far, 2 of 9 say Zero taxes on $100K.

This is an important philosophical position: the belief that we should make it as individuals--protect ourselves/families only--anything for community/society/government should be voluntary.

I don't agree w/ this position, but it seems to be widespread. It ignores the fact that humans are social animals that always have, & always will, live in societies/communities.

A lot of our current political debate centers around trying to find the proper balance for what individuals/families should do for themselves & what we as a community/society should do collectively for one another.

Even Libertarians (I think) support taxes to support a common defense, the state dept., & the treasury dept. Some might even support "socialized" funding for roads & highways. But the 2 saying Zero taxes in this poll are Ultra-Libertarians, I guess.

Uh-Oh, now there's three. 😀

So you want to pay a national sales tax of 30%-40% plus your mortgage interest will be non-deductible.

FactCheck.org: Unspinning the FairTax

:rolling:

30-40% sales tax? Sounds like a black marketeer's dream and Steve Earle's next album....Plasma Screen Road.

I wonder what the total percentage of sticker price on an average car is paid in tax? After you add up every time that car is sold used over the course of it's life. 3,4,5,6 times tax is paid on it? I hate that one.

So you want to pay a national sales tax of 30%-40% plus your mortgage interest will be non-deductible?

FactCheck.org: Unspinning the FairTax

:rolling:

If you are familiar with the proposal you know that every household gets a "prebate" to reimburse taxes on basic goods, ie. food, medicine etc. So, the effective rate goes down as income goes down. And the fairtax is voluntary in that if you do not buy anything new, you pay no tax. So if you object to paying 13,000 for a 10,000 new car, buy a used one and pay no tax. And to make up for the fact that there is no morgage deduction you get in return no capital gains, no death tax and no FICA/Medicare tax.
I'll take that deal.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=1541&page=NewsArticle&id=8248

I wonder what the total percentage of sticker price on an average car is paid in tax? After you add up every time that car is sold used over the course of it's life. 3,4,5,6 times tax is paid on it? I hate that one.

The fairtax applies only for new retail sales and services. Used items have already been subject to tax and are not taxed again.

Americans For Fair Taxation:

I voted 10,000 because I took the question as what to pay under the current system. If we are saying zero is a vote for the fairtax, I would absolutely vote zero. The fairtax is the most fair way to do taxes.

I would have thought a liberal would have selected 50% since they support tax and spend initiatives, logically they would want to pay for it.

Now that you know you're wrong, maybe that will give you a new perspective and attitude as well.

A 30% effective rate is equal to a typical annual mortgage payment. Does the federal government offer services to the average american equal to a roof over their head? What services does the federal government offer you? I can think of a few, interstate roads, defense, and legal framework. But do these things add up to 30% of every american's income? My answer would be no, they don't, not even close.

If you are familiar with the proposal you know that every household gets a "prebate" to reimburse taxes on basic goods, ie. food, medicine etc. So, the effective rate goes down as income goes down. And the fairtax is voluntary in that if you do not buy anything new, you pay no tax. So if you object to paying 13,000 for a 10,000 new car, buy a used one and pay no tax. And to make up for the fact that there is no morgage deduction you get in return no capital gains, no death tax and no FICA/Medicare tax.
I'll take that deal.

Americans For Fair Taxation: The FairTax Rate: a 23% tomato or a 30% tomato?

I am very familiar with the proposal and at 24% it is not sufficient to replace all the taxes that are cancelled-unless there is a magical tax fairy.

In 2010,

Capital gains is 15%

Medicare/FICA is 15.3% (employees pay half)

Fair Tax 30%-40%

Most people will pay more taxes under a Fair Tax.

The 25% tax bracket goes to $137,300 (joint -married) 28% up to $209,250 with deductions, exemptions, etc the effective rate is much lower.

I am very familiar with the proposal and at 24% it is not sufficient to replace all the taxes that are cancelled-unless there is a magical tax fairy.

In 2010,

Capital gains is 15%

Medicare/FICA is 15.3% (employees pay half)

Fair Tax 30%-40%

Most people will pay more taxes under a Fair Tax.

The 25% tax bracket goes to $137,300 (joint -married) 28% up to $209,250 with deductions, exemptions, etc the effective rate is much lower.

Doesn't comparing 30-40% sales tax to ~25% income tax assume people will spend 100% of disposable income on consumer related purchases? What if under a fair tax people spend within their means? That's a philosophical quandary which isn't factored into a spreadsheet. Kinda like the inevitable greed which always seems to wreak havoc on a 'free market' but is never factor into a profit/loss statement.

Doesn't comparing 30-40% sales tax to ~25% income tax assume people will spend 100% of disposable income on consumer related purchases? What if under a fair tax people spend within their means? That's a philosophical quandary which isn't factored into a spreadsheet. Kinda like the inevitable greed which always seems to wreak havoc on a 'free market' but is never factor into a profit/loss statement.

But a 25% marginal rate with deductions/exemeptions. means an effective tax rate lower than 20%.

The fair tax sounds grandiose but it is economic demagoguery (or however you spell it).

I am not saying the current system is "right" rather I think the fair tax would make things worse because most people would pay more in taxes.

From the government's POV there are several basic problems with a National Consumption Based tax.

• First, it gives the citizenry too much control over how much control over their tax burden. As someone mentioned earlier, you just don't buy a new car. (They might add use taxes on private resales, but you can bet lots of folks would just keep their stuff longer.)
  
• Second, this type of tax encourages the citizenry to save, rather than to consume. As one of the major consumer powers of the world, the folks who have invested big bucks in our politicians don't want to see that happen. Many of the world's economies depend on US consumerism.
  
• Third, Government bureaucracies can only grow in size and power. They can't diminish in scope. (Case in point: Health Care 'reform' increased the power of the IRS. No one in their right mind would associate the IRS with health care, yet it happened.) Most of the mechanisms for capturing transaction taxes are in place in most states. That wouldn't bode well for the IRS. That alone insures that it won't happen.
  
  That's not to say that the government would be opposed to adding a VAT in as another layer of taxation.

Enjoying all the comments and debate. I admit, there's a lot I don't know about this issue. The facts seem endless. I see good arguments on both sides. I think we can all agree whatever the solution it must be simpler. I do a lot of thinking out loud and appreciate the congenial candor on this board.

But a 25% marginal rate with deductions/exemeptions. means an effective tax rate lower than 20%.

The fair tax sounds grandiose but it is economic demagoguery (or however you spell it).

I am not saying the current system is "right" rather I think the fair tax would make things worse because most people would pay more in taxes.

These economists disagree with you:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8351