Housing Bubble

Fly,

What's your view of what future airline consolidations will bring to the party?
(i.e., rubblings about America West & US Airways; American & United)

/

Very good for the stock holders in the short term. The short term has passed for America West and US Airways as it is now tanking. This merger is going so badly that I would not be suprised to see the companys split again and sold to separate buyers.

If the other mergers happen I would cash out early, over the long haul a merger is very difficult.

But I really don't think any of the big mergers like United/Continental or Delta/Northwest will ever happen due to government intervention by senators protecting their home airline. But if it does it will also have to happen quickly under Bush as I don't think McCain or the Dems would be for consolidation.

Airlines are generally an awful investment over the long term.

JMHO,
Flyguy

Airlines are generally an awful investment over the long term.

JMHO,
Flyguy

I know about the "investment"...scratch that...malinvestment aspects of airlines; I was interested in your view as to what such mergers will do for the area airports.


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More likely than you think - for Europeans our winter temps are very mild. And they get a lot more bang for their buck on our beach verses South Beach, etc. And Europeans are not necessarily snowbirds - France, for example, celebrates their "summer break" in August and for an entire month. If you go to Paris in August, you'll find it feels empty, other than the tourists. In October, schools are let out for a few weeks and families head out - perfect weather in our area for those Europeans who can't take the August heat. Believe it or not, the Panhandle doesn't have a "redneck" reputation in France. Most of them haven't even heard of our beach - but they will. I think of Field of Dreams when I think of the new airport - build it and they will come!

Not just in France, but all over Western Europe. They call it "holiday." I mean, Milan, for example, is a ghost town during the month of August. I went once expecting to shop at the couturiers, and they were all closed. Even La Scala was dark.

I think that the dollar is so bad that Europeans just might consider vacationing in the Panhandle. It would be a bargain as compared to Portugal or Minorca. In addition, the beaches I've been to on the Med from Barcelona all the way around to Roma are bad in comparison to those on the Emerald Coast, so once they experience them, the word should get out. Of course, Europeans would have to get used to not sunbathing topless.

I think that the dollar is so bad that Europeans just might consider vacationing in the Panhandle.

You'll know them by their trademark black socks & brown sandals, speedos and notoriously stingy (if at all) tipping protocol.

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I know about the "investment"...scratch that...malinvestment aspects of airlines; I was interested in your view as to what such mergers will do for the area airports.


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I don't think mergers will make any difference to the Panhandle airports. You will still see service to all the major hubs (Atlanta, DFW, etc.) in this part of the country from PCB. I suppose there is a chance of a slight decrease to certain hub cities as the new airline consolidates its schedule. But the overall seats available out of PCB should remain relatively constant after a merger.

All airline service is driven by passenger demand.

Reality: If you buy the ticket they will come.
Dream: If you build it they will come.

JMHO,
Flyguy

My sister is getting married this year here and I cannot tell you all what a ROYAL pain in the butt it has been for our relatives coming from overseas to get here..... the new airport (unless they start having direct flights and there is NO way I see that happening!) - we are still years and years away from the seeing the europeans coming here - Orlando and Miami are just so much more convenient, infintely cheaper and to some have much more to offer.....

I can't see how Europeans won't be tempted to take 3 different connecting flights and travel 12-15 hrs to get to THE BEACH.

My sister is getting married this year here and I cannot tell you all what a ROYAL pain in the butt it has been for our relatives coming from overseas to get here..... the new airport (unless they start having direct flights and there is NO way I see that happening!) - we are still years and years away from the seeing the europeans coming here - Orlando and Miami are just so much more convenient, infintely cheaper and to some have much more to offer.....

Absolutely.

Most of my overseas acquaintances are of the British and Dutch persuasion. If I could draw a map of the USA from the viewpoint of the citizens of most European countries it would look like this:

The entire N.E. of the USA would be NY City; to the south would be the peninsula of Florida divided into 2 "states" Disneyworld and Miami; a big blob in the mid-west would be labeled Texas (no cities/states, only a picture of a cowboy, Indian and longhorned steer); to the west of Texas would be the "state" of Las Vegas (they would not be able to name the state LV is in); and the west coast would be California divided into Hollywood, LA and San Francisco. (If this sounds far-fetched, have your "average" American draw a map of Britain and pinpoint the following: London, Bath, Scotland, Wales, Cambridge, Devon, Oxford, Plymouth)

When you speak to Europeans in general (believe it or not, the overwhelming majority of them couldn't afford to come to the USA on their holidays--although most of them would want to) they are only interested in hearing about the travels of their colleagues going to "the USA" (the one I pictured above); and as such, most of their travels to the USA will include those locations.

The affluent Europeans are more apt (and financially able) to travel to other areas of the US, but I doubt SoWal will be able to attract these folks in numbers that will make a great deal of difference.

A few of my European friends have come here, and enjoyed the beaches very much, but they're not interested in coming again and again--they enjoy going to different places and seeing different things (our beach is nice, but it is not the end-all and be-all of beaches in other areas of the world available to folks with high net worth). A less well-capitalized friend from England asked to come and crash at my place and make "day-trips" to Disneyworld (afterall I do live in Florida); once he found out how far it was--he just did an inexpensive trip to DisneyWorld.

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Shelly, you've rightfully guarded your interest in the longer term investment horizon, I think the biggest danger in your analysis is that you've underestimated the power of the internet to disseminate information... for instance, you think that SoWal is a great place to live, either actually or in some sort of sick cyber-freudian sense.... You're bang on about your figurative map of the USA, but that's all rear view mirror stuff Shel... that's whats priced in currently, when people from Europe made decisions in the 80's and 90's on what to buy based on what friends and family did, and based on TV shows like Miami Vice....

Shel, its time to get long some SoWal babe cakes - or else be left in the dust as a two bit trader that made a prescient and psychotically emphatic trading call on a chat board... the internet is now your enemy, information flow your nemisis....

keeping SoWal a secret for the next 20 years will make wak-a-mole look tame.

Absolutely.

Most of my overseas acquaintances are of the British and Dutch persuasion. If I could draw a map of the USA from the viewpoint of the citizens of most European countries it would look like this:

The entire N.E. of the USA would be NY City; to the south would be the peninsula of Florida divided into 2 "states" Disneyworld and Miami; a big blob in the mid-west would be labeled Texas (no cities/states, only a picture of a cowboy, Indian and longhorned steer); to the west of Texas would be the "state" of Las Vegas (they would not be able to name the state LV is in); and the west coast would be California divided into Hollywood, LA and San Francisco. (If this sounds far-fetched, have your "average" American draw a map of Britain and pinpoint the following: London, Bath, Scotland, Wales, Cambridge, Devon, Oxford, Plymouth)

When you speak to Europeans in general (believe it or not, the overwhelming majority of them couldn't afford to come to the USA on their holidays--although most of them would want to) they are only interested in hearing about the travels of their colleagues going to "the USA" (the one I pictured above); and as such, most of their travels to the USA will include those locations.

The affluent Europeans are more apt (and financially able) to travel to other areas of the US, but I doubt SoWal will be able to attract these folks in numbers that will make a great deal of difference.

A few of my European friends have come here, and enjoyed the beaches very much, but they're not interested in coming again and again--they enjoy going to different places and seeing different things (our beach is nice, but it is not the end-all and be-all of beaches in other areas of the world available to folks with high net worth). A less well-capitalized friend from England asked to come and crash at my place and make "day-trips" to Disneyworld (afterall I do live in Florida); once he found out how far it was--he just did an inexpensive trip to DisneyWorld.

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the internet is now your enemy, information flow your nemisis....

Au contraire....the Internet information flow is the nemesis of the people whose overwhelming main objective is to transfer someone else's wealth into their pocket by any means.

Since that is not my inclination, I deem the Internet, and the information contained therein, a friendly distraction.

/

Sowal beaches are gorgeous, but that is seriously the only thing we have to offer as far as competition to other popular European travel destinations.

Yes, the food is good, but not fabulous in comparison, and the lodgings are nice, but not 4 or 5 stars.

theatre?
shopping?
travel time?
nightlife?
transportation?
culture?

Right now we've just got uncrowded white sand and the exchange rate in our favor.

Sowal beaches are gorgeous, but that is seriously the only thing we have to offer as far as competition to other popular European travel destinations.

Yes, the food is good, but not fabulous in comparison, and the lodgings are nice, but not 4 or 5 stars.

theatre?
shopping?
travel time?
nightlife?
transportation?
culture?

Right now we've just got uncrowded white sand and the exchange rate in our favor.

And you might get arrested for setting up a chair on the beach.

And you might get arrested for setting up a chair on the beach.

Great idea! What do you think one could charge for that if one set up a tour around it? Would it really draw folks though?

Absolutely.

Most of my overseas acquaintances are of the British and Dutch persuasion. If I could draw a map of the USA from the viewpoint of the citizens of most European countries it would look like this:

The entire N.E. of the USA would be NY City; to the south would be the peninsula of Florida divided into 2 "states" Disneyworld and Miami; a big blob in the mid-west would be labeled Texas (no cities/states, only a picture of a cowboy, Indian and longhorned steer); to the west of Texas would be the "state" of Las Vegas (they would not be able to name the state LV is in); and the west coast would be California divided into Hollywood, LA and San Francisco. (If this sounds far-fetched, have your "average" American draw a map of Britain and pinpoint the following: London, Bath, Scotland, Wales, Cambridge, Devon, Oxford, Plymouth)

When you speak to Europeans in general (believe it or not, the overwhelming majority of them couldn't afford to come to the USA on their holidays--although most of them would want to) they are only interested in hearing about the travels of their colleagues going to "the USA" (the one I pictured above); and as such, most of their travels to the USA will include those locations.

The affluent Europeans are more apt (and financially able) to travel to other areas of the US, but I doubt SoWal will be able to attract these folks in numbers that will make a great deal of difference.

A few of my European friends have come here, and enjoyed the beaches very much, but they're not interested in coming again and again--they enjoy going to different places and seeing different things (our beach is nice, but it is not the end-all and be-all of beaches in other areas of the world available to folks with high net worth). A less well-capitalized friend from England asked to come and crash at my place and make "day-trips" to Disneyworld (afterall I do live in Florida); once he found out how far it was--he just did an inexpensive trip to DisneyWorld.

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Ditto.

Our European visitors who come to this area come to visit us, not the destination. We tend to meetup elsewhere, it's so hard to get here. Plus it's such a sacrifice to waste a U.S. trip to come to the panhandle. Popular holiday spots for our European friends stateside include NYC, LA or Miami. Or for our friends with kids, Disney.

Shelly, you've rightfully guarded your interest in the longer term investment horizon, I think the biggest danger in your analysis is that you've underestimated the power of the internet to disseminate information... for instance, you think that SoWal is a great place to live, either actually or in some sort of sick cyber-freudian sense.... You're bang on about your figurative map of the USA, but that's all rear view mirror stuff Shel... that's whats priced in currently, when people from Europe made decisions in the 80's and 90's on what to buy based on what friends and family did, and based on TV shows like Miami Vice....

Shel, its time to get long some SoWal babe cakes - or else be left in the dust as a two bit trader that made a prescient and psychotically emphatic trading call on a chat board... the internet is now your enemy, information flow your nemisis....

keeping SoWal a secret for the next 20 years will make wak-a-mole look tame.

Way to attack Shel. Sorry if she sees something you don't. Internet or not, the New Yorkers have to come here before the Europeans do. Just like Miami.
And even in the 80's and 90's Miami had culture and nighlife.

Housing bubble explained ... I found this to be an interesting article on Slate.

Foreclosures have become a major political issue. Ever since December, Hillary Clinton has been making daily calls for a 90-day moratorium on foreclosures. The Bush administration has been inching toward an anti-foreclosure policy. The Hope Now alliance was created in October as a voluntary industry effort to aid troubled borrowers. In December, the White House and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson encouraged Hope Now members to offer interest-rate freezes and refinancing for certain qualified borrowers as part of an effort to avoid foreclosures. This week, the administration rolled out Project Lifeline, which offers qualified borrowers the chance to freeze foreclosure proceedings for 30 days. (Coming next: Operation Desperation.)

All of these proposals are good ideas, and bad ideas, for the same economic reason: Forestalling more foreclosure delays price discovery.

After a bubble pops, markets go through a painful process in which they try to agree on prices for formerly inflated assets. This is called "price discovery." When the bubble is in stocks, price discovery happens very quickly. A stock can go from $60 to $0 in a matter of days, if not hours, and sometimes did when the Internet bubble popped in 2000. From a macroeconomic perspective, such stock price discovery is painful but not necessarily devastating. The people who own bubbly stocks lose money. People who bought the stock on margin—i.e. they borrowed to buy it—lose a lot money. Banks who lent to high-flying firms frequently must write off loans. And companies that supply, or service, or depend on the afflicted firms may suffer as well. But, as when the tech bubble popped, stock price discovery usually doesn't lead to systemic failures.

By contrast, the process of price discovery in housing, and housing-related credit, has been much slower—and it has much more dire systemic implications. The housing market peaked in 2006, and it has been slowly slumping. But nationwide, according to the Case-Schiller index, housing prices have fallen only 8.4 percent in the past year. Home prices in some areas of the country may need to fall 30 percent in order to find bottom. That process is likely to take years rather than months.

The slope of the housing decline has been gentle because houses can't be flipped like stocks. People live in their homes, and there are big transaction costs associated with selling them. The market isn't very liquid. There's another reason housing prices have been slow to fall. There are all kinds of incentives for everyone involved in the housing market to push off the day of reckoning, to delay the process of price discovery.

Start with the homeowner. Homes are highly leveraged purchases, whether it's 20 percent, 10 percent, or 0 percent down. Owners of existing homes are reluctant to mark down the value of their homes 20 percent overnight because, in many instances, it will wipe out their equity. Homebuilders and condo developers don't like to lower prices quickly because it makes those who bought in their development five months earlier feel like chumps. The banks don't want to concede that the houses they lent against are suddenly worth a great deal less than they were a few months ago. Investors who bought the bonds created by slicing and dicing mortgages—and then leveraged up their positions by borrowing money—get massacred when prices fall. The same holds true for bond insurers like Ambac and MBIA, which insured structured finance products created by lashing groups of mortgage-related securities together.

And so, since the bubble popped and home prices ceased to rise, desperate players in the market have taken a series of actions intended to delay price discovery in housing. Rather than cut prices, sellers began to throw in free cars or other inducements to buyers who paid the asking price. Brokers reduced their commissions. Builders started including all sorts of extras (fancy kitchens, pools, etc.) for no additional price. Every link in the chain sacrificed margins and profits rather than cut prices. The Wall Street Journal reported last year that homebuilders were funneling large cash payments to buyers through third-party marketers, in effect reducing the price buyers had to pay while publicly reporting that sales prices remained buoyant.

Such measures were like throwing sandbags at a rising river. And it hasn't worked. The carnage in subprime loans has led to a spate of foreclosures. When banks or investors take over properties, they recoup whatever they can by placing it on the market quickly and accepting any reasonable offer. When foreclosed properties are dumped onto the market and sold at fire-sale prices, they establish new comparable sales on a given street or neighborhood. It might take a solvent home-seller 18 months to mark down the price of his house by 20 percent. A bank will do it in 18 days.

Foreclosure also has the effect of hastening price discovery on the mortgages on those homes, and on the bonds backing them. Here, again, the impact can be devastating to those who bought the assets with a great deal of leverage. Hedge funds and other institutions sitting on the depreciating debt either had to put up more collateral to maintain their leveraged positions, or dump the assets to raise cash. Bond insurers must increase reserves to prepare for defaults of the bonds they insured. And if the bond insurers fail, the financial firms that purchased insurance from them will have to take their own write-downs. The potential for massive systemic problems is the reason there's been so much discussion between financial institutions and government regulators about trying to orchestrate some sort of bailout for the bond insurers.

In general, cleaning up quickly after popped bubbles is good for the economy, because it enables everybody to move on. Over the years, the American economic system has proved to be quite adept at doing so. And as Japan's experience in recent years shows, refusing to deal with the overhang of bad debt can condemn an economy to a lengthy period of slow growth. But I doubt there's the political will to allow the fast price discovery allowed by foreclosures to continue. While it would certainly bring long-term economic benefits, the short-term social, financial, and political consequences of a rapid clearing of the housing mess are too much to bear. As the year goes on, expect presidential candidates and government officials to keep throwing lifelines and buckets full of hope at the housing market.

Daniel Gross is the Moneybox columnist for Slate and the business columnist for Newsweek. You can e-mail him at moneybox@slate.com. He is the author of Pop! Why Bubbles Are Great for the Economy.

But I really don't think any of the big mergers like United/Continental or Delta/Northwest will ever happen due to government intervention by senators protecting their home airline. But if it does it will also have to happen quickly under Bush as I don't think McCain or the Dems would be for consolidation.


JMHO,
Flyguy

I believe one Ga senator has already had a conversation with Delta's CEO.