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Matt J

SWGB

I believe these are the owners that built there homes in what are essentially "flood planes" of the dune lakes and now everytime they're threatened they want a bull dozer to dig out any sand stopping the water.  Then we will put the bull dozer away and marvel at the beauty of nature.

I believe these are the owners that built there homes in what are essentially &quot;flood planes&quot; of the dune lakes and now everytime they&#039;re threatened they want a bull dozer to dig out any sand stopping the water.  Then we will put the bull dozer away and marvel at the beauty of nature.

NotDeadYet

Beach Fanatic

I can give a little background. The first permit to manage an outlet was given for Lake Powell. The alleged reason was to open the outlet when the lake level rose above a certain height, to lower the water in the lake because of septic tanks and docks being underwater. Since then Walton County has pursued permits to do the same thing with Eastern, Western, Alligator and Oyster lakes. I'm not sure what the status of those permit applications is - someone will probably come along and tell us. Except in the case of Oyster Lake, it is more the level of the water in the lakes than the location of the outlets. At Oyster Lake, there is an owner on the east side of the outlet who is involved in a lawsuit with the county. He wants the outlet "managed" so he can build on a lot there. His lawsuit has also halted the restoration plans for Oyster Lake. The county got a grant to build a bridge on 30A there where it crosses the outlet. There is an old culvert there that blocks inward flow of gulf water into Oyster Lake, it is at the wrong elevation for natural functioning of the outlet. 
I'm told that in the good old days some of the lakes, especially Powell and Western, stayed open for longer periods and more frequently and that the salinity was higher - lots of salt water fish were caught in those lakes. But the sand has built up at most of the outlets in the last few years. It used to be more common for locals to open the outlets frequently with shovels and such. In the overall long term picture I think these swings in salinity and vegetation have happened lots, but folks have a hard time taking a longterm view. Also in the past before all the development, well, if the lake level stayed high for a while it didn't bother anyone much, and when it finally opened up it didn't threaten anyone who built close to the outlet. The county has also been trying to get rid of all the septic tanks around the lakes - not sure what the status is of those, but personally I don't swim in the outlets when they open up.

I can give a little background. The first permit to manage an outlet was given for Lake Powell. The alleged reason was to open the outlet when the lake level rose above a certain height, to lower the water in the lake because of septic tanks and docks being underwater. Since then Walton County has pursued permits to do the same thing with Eastern, Western, Alligator and Oyster lakes. I&#039;m not sure what the status of those permit applications is - someone will probably come along and tell us. Except in the case of Oyster Lake, it is more the level of the water in the lakes than the location of the outlets. At Oyster Lake, there is an owner on the east side of the outlet who is involved in a lawsuit with the county. He wants the outlet &quot;managed&quot; so he can build on a lot there. His lawsuit has also halted the restoration plans for Oyster Lake. The county got a grant to build a bridge on 30A there where it crosses the outlet. There is an old culvert there that blocks inward flow of gulf water into Oyster Lake, it is at the wrong elevation for natural functioning of the outlet. 
I&#039;m told that in the good old days some of the lakes, especially Powell and Western, stayed open for longer periods and more frequently and that the salinity was higher - lots of salt water fish were caught in those lakes. But the sand has built up at most of the outlets in the last few years. It used to be more common for locals to open the outlets frequently with shovels and such. In the overall long term picture I think these swings in salinity and vegetation have happened lots, but folks have a hard time taking a longterm view. Also in the past before all the development, well, if the lake level stayed high for a while it didn&#039;t bother anyone much, and when it finally opened up it didn&#039;t threaten anyone who built close to the outlet. The county has also been trying to get rid of all the septic tanks around the lakes - not sure what the status is of those, but personally I don&#039;t swim in the outlets when they open up.

NDY, Lake Powell used to be an Inlet, I can scan in some pics of Pinnacle Port back when they advertised the ability to launch and go to the Gulf.  The funny thing is that Lake Powell is probably one of the larger examples that coastal dune lakes don't neccessarily open all the time.  Perhaps they go thru decades of closure?

NDY, Lake Powell used to be an Inlet, I can scan in some pics of Pinnacle Port back when they advertised the ability to launch and go to the Gulf.  The funny thing is that Lake Powell is probably one of the larger examples that coastal dune lakes don&#039;t neccessarily open all the time.  Perhaps they go thru decades of closure?

John R

needs to get out more

i'd like to see those pics, if you're up to it.

i&#039;d like to see those pics, if you&#039;re up to it.

[quote]
NDY, Lake Powell used to be an Inlet, I can scan in some pics of Pinnacle Port back when they advertised the ability to launch and go to the Gulf. The funny thing is that Lake Powell is probably one of the larger examples that coastal dune lakes don't neccessarily open all the time. Perhaps they go thru decades of closure?
[/quote]I've heard that, it is what I was sort of referring to. Also heard there used to be dolphins living in the lake, ala Flipper. I've been told, but don't know it for a fact, that the locals used to routinely keep Lake Powell open with shovels. But the thing is, the sand has really built up at all the lake outlets, even as the beaches in general have eroded, and we have not had a tropical system for what, two years now? A storm surge would probably sweep all that build up away. It could be a change in the weather patterns we are seeing that is keeping the lakes mostly closed, or it could be part of a cycle. The problem is that our historical knowledge of the lakes is very short compared to the time the lakes have been around. Even 100 years is not much in the geological time frame. So yes, they might go through decades of closure, and maybe decades of being open too, for all we know. :idontno:
My real point is our collective reluctance to take that longer view - if we knew there were decades long closures and we still built docks and septic tanks, well then we are building stuff that will require "management." Likewise if we accepted the fact that the outlets meander over decades, we shouldn't be building so close to the outlets that we then need to armor up the outlets to keep them in one place.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="">NDY, Lake Powell used to be an Inlet, I can scan in some pics of Pinnacle Port back when they advertised the ability to launch and go to the Gulf. The funny thing is that Lake Powell is probably one of the larger examples that coastal dune lakes don&#039;t neccessarily open all the time. Perhaps they go thru decades of closure?</blockquote>I&#039;ve heard that, it is what I was sort of referring to. Also heard there used to be dolphins living in the lake, ala Flipper. I&#039;ve been told, but don&#039;t know it for a fact, that the locals used to routinely keep Lake Powell open with shovels. But the thing is, the sand has really built up at all the lake outlets, even as the beaches in general have eroded, and we have not had a tropical system for what, two years now? A storm surge would probably sweep all that build up away. It could be a change in the weather patterns we are seeing that is keeping the lakes mostly closed, or it could be part of a cycle. The problem is that our historical knowledge of the lakes is very short compared to the time the lakes have been around. Even 100 years is not much in the geological time frame. So yes, they might go through decades of closure, and maybe decades of being open too, for all we know. :idontno: 
My real point is our collective reluctance to take that longer view - if we knew there were decades long closures and we still built docks and septic tanks, well then we are building stuff that will require &quot;management.&quot; Likewise if we accepted the fact that the outlets meander over decades, we shouldn&#039;t be building so close to the outlets that we then need to armor up the outlets to keep them in one place.

Kurt

Admin

Smiling JOe

SoWal Expert

Let's just put the entire world in a NO-GROW BOX.

Let&#039;s just put the entire world in a NO-GROW BOX.

scooterbug44

[quote="Smiling JOe, post: 320237"]Let's just put the entire world in a NO-GROW BOX.[/quote]

Or just start using some common sense before laying the foundation or signing the paperwork!

Don't build low in a flood plain and want lakes dug out to save your property, don't build as close as you can to the ocean and then want public land for a seawall, don't build in a planned resort community and then complain about renters making noise, don't build next to an airport (or the largest air force base in the US) and complain about plane noise, and don't build tens and hundreds of units and then biatch about "your" beach being crowded! :angry:

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="Smiling JOe">Let&#039;s just put the entire world in a NO-GROW BOX.</blockquote> 
Or just start using some common sense before laying the foundation or signing the paperwork! 
 
Don&#039;t build low in a flood plain and want lakes dug out to save your property, don&#039;t build as close as you can to the ocean and then want public land for a seawall, don&#039;t build in a planned resort community and then complain about renters making noise, don&#039;t build next to an airport (or the largest air force base in the US) and complain about plane noise, and don&#039;t build tens and hundreds of units and then biatch about &quot;your&quot; beach being crowded! :angry:

[quote]
Let's just put the entire world in a NO-GROW BOX.
[/quote]I don't really think that is necessary. I do think we ought to have some appreciation for natural systems, especially rare and special ones like the coastal dune lakes. And a few thoughts for future generations might be in order as well. Too bad you seem to think there are only two available boxes, no grow and grow without limits. :bang:

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="">Let&#039;s just put the entire world in a NO-GROW BOX.</blockquote>I don&#039;t really think that is necessary. I do think we ought to have some appreciation for natural systems, especially rare and special ones like the coastal dune lakes. And a few thoughts for future generations might be in order as well. Too bad you seem to think there are only two available boxes, no grow and grow without limits. :bang:

[quote="NotDeadYet, post: 320246"]I don't really think that is necessary. I do think we ought to have some appreciation for natural systems, especially rare and special ones like the coastal dune lakes. And a few thoughts for future generations might be in order as well. Too bad you seem to think there are only two available boxes, no grow and grow without limits. :bang:[/quote]I was being sarcastic. I think in today's world, I see so many people who think that houses are permanent objects. They also think that simply because something has been a particular way for as long as they can remember, that it should be no other way. This planet has been around for millions of years. Humans wouldn't even show up as a spec on a time line of the history of the Earth. The Lakes change with time. I could care less if the outflows filled with sand, unless it is humans who cause it. Guess what. The Lakes may have a lifespan, too. Maybe they also change with time on their own, and one day cease to exist, without any cause by human actions. "Managing" the lakes makes me think of people wanting to put them in a no-grow box. These lakes just as the outflows, would change naturally over time, even if people didn't exist. My thoughts are leave the freaking lakes alone, and let them be lakes doing whatever it is that lakes do. The less impact we have on these lakes, the more they can do what they do.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="NotDeadYet">I don&#039;t really think that is necessary. I do think we ought to have some appreciation for natural systems, especially rare and special ones like the coastal dune lakes. And a few thoughts for future generations might be in order as well. Too bad you seem to think there are only two available boxes, no grow and grow without limits. :bang:</blockquote>I was being sarcastic. I think in today&#039;s world, I see so many people who think that houses are permanent objects. They also think that simply because something has been a particular way for as long as they can remember, that it should be no other way. This planet has been around for millions of years. Humans wouldn&#039;t even show up as a spec on a time line of the history of the Earth. The Lakes change with time. I could care less if the outflows filled with sand, unless it is humans who cause it. Guess what. The Lakes may have a lifespan, too. Maybe they also change with time on their own, and one day cease to exist, without any cause by human actions. &quot;Managing&quot; the lakes makes me think of people wanting to put them in a no-grow box. These lakes just as the outflows, would change naturally over time, even if people didn&#039;t exist. My thoughts are leave the freaking lakes alone, and let them be lakes doing whatever it is that lakes do. The less impact we have on these lakes, the more they can do what they do.

I definitely agree that you need to be "big picture" in dealing with Mother Nature, but think that when changes are caused or intensified by humans, we should take action.

I definitely agree that you need to be &quot;big picture&quot; in dealing with Mother Nature, but think that when changes are caused or intensified by humans, we should take action.

I hear you, but we need to be very sure as to the causes of things. Some people living on Eastern Lake will tell you that the Ditch Weed was growing because of Mr Williams actions. People have a tendency to get an opinion and defend it to the death. Ask questions. Ask MANY questions, and ask them to many people, including experts. 

It is thought that Big Redfish and Little Redfish Lakes probably connected at some point in time. Currently, they are two separated lakes. Sand has built up on the beach between the two, likely long before anyone settled in the area. If you are going to "manage" the Lakes, you better make damn sure that you know what you are doing, the  real causes of that which you are trying to control,  and how mother nature would act without the interference of Man. If any of those things are not 100%, you shouldn't pretend to know what is best for the Lakes. If you want to manage something, you could start by removing septic tanks from around the Lakes and removing homes from the natural historic outflow locations, which is very wide range for most lakes.

I hear you, but we need to be very sure as to the causes of things. Some people living on Eastern Lake will tell you that the Ditch Weed was growing because of Mr Williams actions. People have a tendency to get an opinion and defend it to the death. Ask questions. Ask MANY questions, and ask them to many people, including experts. 
 
It is thought that Big Redfish and Little Redfish Lakes probably connected at some point in time. Currently, they are two separated lakes. Sand has built up on the beach between the two, likely long before anyone settled in the area. If you are going to &quot;manage&quot; the Lakes, you better make damn sure that you know what you are doing, the real causes of that which you are trying to control, and how mother nature would act without the interference of Man. If any of those things are not 100%, you shouldn&#039;t pretend to know what is best for the Lakes. If you want to manage something, you could start by removing septic tanks from around the Lakes and removing homes from the natural historic outflow locations, which is very wide range for most lakes.

I'm not so much advocating "management," more "practicing minimum impact" with the occasional "fix" to correct an oops.

As far as Worthless, my solution would be to just make him remove the added sand and see what happens, not have a general management program with periodic interventions required because folks built permanent structures too low. ;-)

I&#039;m not so much advocating &quot;management,&quot; more &quot;practicing minimum impact&quot; with the occasional &quot;fix&quot; to correct an oops. 
 
As far as Worthless, my solution would be to just make him remove the added sand and see what happens, not have a general management program with periodic interventions required because folks built permanent structures too low. ;-)

I understand that which you are saying. I see one problem with it in a general sense, and that is, who defines the word "oops?" Some people's oops are not other peoples oops, and before we know it, there are too many people trying to make differing decisions on who's to blame, what's the cause, and the "fix" for the problem. I wish it could be as simple as you say. If Worth dumped four loads of sand, make him remove those four loads of sand. Oh, life would be too easy.

I understand that which you are saying. I see one problem with it in a general sense, and that is, who defines the word &quot;oops?&quot; Some people&#039;s oops are not other peoples oops, and before we know it, there are too many people trying to make differing decisions on who&#039;s to blame, what&#039;s the cause, and the &quot;fix&quot; for the problem. I wish it could be as simple as you say. If Worth dumped four loads of sand, make him remove those four loads of sand. Oh, life would be too easy.

bsmart

brain

[quote="Smiling JOe, post: 320336"]I wish it could be as simple as you say. Oh, life would be too easy.[/quote]

It is that simple! Join me in Scooterbugland. It is a wonderful place!

Captain Obvious is a fair and benevolent ruler, Sowal is the official news bureau, "sense and sensibility" is the state motto and forms the cornerstone of an education system that teaches basic skills and introduces many ideas (not just the comfortable ones), lobbyists and special interest groups are sentenced to chain gangs that pick up trash and do chores for the elderly and infirm, and noone leaves items on the beach overnight! ;-)

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="Smiling JOe">I wish it could be as simple as you say. Oh, life would be too easy.</blockquote> 
It is that simple! Join me in Scooterbugland. It is a wonderful place! 
 
Captain Obvious is a fair and benevolent ruler, Sowal is the official news bureau, &quot;sense and sensibility&quot; is the state motto and forms the cornerstone of an education system that teaches basic skills and introduces many ideas (not just the comfortable ones), lobbyists and special interest groups are sentenced to chain gangs that pick up trash and do chores for the elderly and infirm, and noone leaves items on the beach overnight! ;-)

[quote]I was being sarcastic[/quote]
Sorry, SJ, I didn't realize :blush:
 
I met a man on the beach who told me the county dumped all that sand at the Eastern Lake outlet. So I asked him to tell me more, and he said it was back after the hurricane and all these dump trucks came along and dumped many loads of sand right there, and he pointed to the beach all along the outlet, not just near Worth Williams' place. So I asked him if he actually [I]saw[/I] any of the trucks dump the sand, or did he just see the trucks passing by? And he then said, well, no, he didn't see them stop and dump sand, but so and so told him they did.
Well - those trucks were getting on the beach just east of the outlet and hauling sand to the seawalls going up to the west in Seagrove. But see, this is how rumors get started. You are quite right, we need to be very sure of the cause of things.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="">I was being sarcastic</blockquote>Sorry, SJ, I didn&#039;t realize :blush: 
 
I met a man on the beach who told me the county dumped all that sand at the Eastern Lake outlet. So I asked him to tell me more, and he said it was back after the hurricane and all these dump trucks came along and dumped many loads of sand right there, and he pointed to the beach all along the outlet, not just near Worth Williams&#039; place. So I asked him if he actually saw any of the trucks dump the sand, or did he just see the trucks passing by? And he then said, well, no, he didn&#039;t see them stop and dump sand, but so and so told him they did. 
Well - those trucks were getting on the beach just east of the outlet and hauling sand to the seawalls going up to the west in Seagrove. But see, this is how rumors get started. You are quite right, we need to be very sure of the cause of things.

[quote="John R, post: 320158"]i'd like to see those pics, if you're up to it.[/quote]
 
Sorry, I found what I thought was the picture.  It is an original Sunday paper insert with an aerial shot of Pinnacle Port and an "artists rendering map" on the back, which is what showed the large cut.  The actual cut you can see was maybe deep enough for a jet-ski.  I can get it scanned for you if there's sentimental value, but it's big so I gotta find a large format scanner.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="John R">i&#039;d like to see those pics, if you&#039;re up to it.</blockquote> 
Sorry, I found what I thought was the picture. It is an original Sunday paper insert with an aerial shot of Pinnacle Port and an &quot;artists rendering map&quot; on the back, which is what showed the large cut. The actual cut you can see was maybe deep enough for a jet-ski. I can get it scanned for you if there&#039;s sentimental value, but it&#039;s big so I gotta find a large format scanner.

Caroling

You could scan it it pieces and then reassemble in a graphics program. Where is there a large-format scanner, anyway?
By the way, anyone interested in the coastal dune lakes should come to the meeting at the Coastal Branch Library,  from 1-3 pm, Tuesday, Feb. 5. This is your chance for input on the management plans for the lakes. They have to be managed, because they are no longer natural, with all the development impacting them.

You could scan it it pieces and then reassemble in a graphics program. Where is there a large-format scanner, anyway? 
By the way, anyone interested in the coastal dune lakes should come to the meeting at the Coastal Branch Library, from 1-3 pm, Tuesday, Feb. 5. This is your chance for input on the management plans for the lakes. They have to be managed, because they are no longer natural, with all the development impacting them.

I am unclear on the management of the outfall on the coastal dune lakes.  Could someone give me a rundown on what exactly is proposed to be managed and why?  Why are some property owners pushing the CDLAB to manage outfall at the coastal dune lakes...this is the only aspect of this that I am unclear on.

Thanks y'all.

Brian.

I am unclear on the management of the outfall on the coastal dune lakes. Could someone give me a rundown on what exactly is proposed to be managed and why? Why are some property owners pushing the CDLAB to manage outfall at the coastal dune lakes...this is the only aspect of this that I am unclear on. 
 
Thanks y&#039;all. 
 
Brian.

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Outfall Issues on Coastal Dune Lakes

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