Owners Argue "Leave No Trace"

Who is behind it, you ask?
At any meeting during the last few years, whether it is lights, seawalls, turtles, any sort of beach rules, the same small but vocal bunch of people turns up. They believe it is their God-given right to do what they want to do on "their" property, and they cloak it in the guise of property rights. Some people never learned, and apparently never will learn, that rights come with responsibilities. They are quite happy to jump all over the idea of dominion but conveniently ignore stewardship. I for one hope they all have to answer to a higher power one day.

Sadly, your comment applies to more than just beach issues. I've noticed this trend from comments in the political forum. There is so much "me me me" and "mine mine mine mine"- the "I don't give a rat's ass about everyone else as long as my I/my stuff/my money is OK."

So yes, it's a .

I agree 100% with everyone that articles should be removed from the beach at night (chairs, towels, tents, etc. ) I do not agree that sailboats and kayaks should have to be removed as long as they are neatly stacked together in one location. You will see in places like Rosemary Beach where stands have been built to store the kayaks off the ground in central location. I think that is a reasonable solution that is good for the turtles while allowing the beach rental people to make a living. As for sailboats, with the limited number that exist on the beaches, I think it is not rational to ask that they be removed every night. Otherwise, you would have to allow more driving on the beach to trailor them off, which would be even worse. The chance of a turtle running into a sailboat is about 100 times less likely than a turtle running into a beach walkover. Are we going to remove all the beach walkovers also? Lets do everything we can to protect the turtles and keep our beaches clean but be rational at the same time.

Lets do everything we can to protect the turtles and keep our beaches clean but be rational at the same time.

Good advice. I think the reason we cannot seem to do this is because "we," and when I say "we" I mean it in the collective, communal sense, have not agreed to the fundamental principle involved. If we had agreement that clearing the beach at night, whether for the turtles or for public safety or for aesthetics, is a goal worthy of community support, the rest of it would just be the details and they would work themselves out. I really think if the beaches were cleared at night up there Edgewater way, the two posts would no longer be an issue. Either they would be a small detail in an otherwise clear beach, or maybe the Edgewater folks would even decide to seek another solution. Likewise the occasional sailboat. What we have now are a bunch of whiners saying, like little kids, "you can't make me, it's mine."
Rosemary has found their own solution because it is a community decision they made, a value they support.

Well I hit the wrong button, I wasn't finished. We are going about it backwards, arguing about the details because we haven't agreed on the principle, that is what I intended to end my rant with.

Has anyone seen the kids helmets at Wally world? they have these hard hats with big ol' flashlights on them: they say "Destin Beach Crabber" or something like that! I should take a picture! i know this is off subject but are we not supposed to have big flashlights on the beach? know someone is marketing them, as a crabbing item at wally world to do just that!

Good advice. I think the reason we cannot seem to do this is because "we," and when I say "we" I mean it in the collective, communal sense, have not agreed to the fundamental principle involved. If we had agreement that clearing the beach at night, whether for the turtles or for public safety or for aesthetics, is a goal worthy of community support, the rest of it would just be the details and they would work themselves out. I really think if the beaches were cleared at night up there Edgewater way, the two posts would no longer be an issue. Either they would be a small detail in an otherwise clear beach, or maybe the Edgewater folks would even decide to seek another solution. Likewise the occasional sailboat. What we have now are a bunch of whiners saying, like little kids, "you can't make me, it's mine."
Rosemary has found their own solution because it is a community decision they made, a value they support.

NDY, in general I agree with the "spirit" of your post except for the next to the last sentence.

Do you think the issue of a single private family home, lets say one at Blue Mountain Beach, who leaves a single umbrella out overnight on 3 separate occasions should allow the government to arrest that private property owner using "authorized" deadly force if necessary?

That's what we're talking about if some of the short sighted people at the county gets their way.

I LOVE turtles. I LOVE the beach. I and many others don't need ANOTHER (illegal) law. The beachfront owners are as concerned about these issues as anyone else for obvious reasons. I won't even replace my burned out lightbulbs oustside for the same type of reason.

There needs to be balance, not bad "light" continuously and mindlessly cast on beachfront property owners.

I and others ask that our rental guests remove their stuff off the beach every evening. It seems to work based on what I see at the beach in morning. If that doesn't work, I guess we can demand (as property owners) that they remove their stuff, similar to the no pets allowed rule for our property.

Let's try to facilitate what we ALL WANT by working together without the use of "deadly force".

Do you think it is possible?

By the way, what did Rosemary beach do (I may have missed it)?

NDY, in general I agree with the "spirit" of your post except for the next to the last sentence.

Do you think the issue of a single private family home, lets say one at Blue Mountain Beach, who leaves a single umbrella out overnight on 3 separate occasions should allow the government to arrest that private property owner using "authorized" deadly force if necessary?

That's what we're talking about if some of the short sighted people at the county gets their way.

I LOVE turtles. I LOVE the beach. I and many others don't need ANOTHER (illegal) law. The beachfront owners are as concerned about these issues as anyone else for obvious reasons. I won't even replace my burned out lightbulbs oustside for the same type of reason.

There needs to be balance, not bad "light" continuously and mindlessly cast on beachfront property owners.

I and others ask that our rental guests remove their stuff off the beach every evening. It seems to work based on what I see at the beach in morning. If that doesn't work, I guess we can demand (as property owners) that they remove their stuff, similar to the no pets allowed rule for our property.

Let's try to facilitate what we ALL WANT by working together without the use of "deadly force".

Do you think it is possible?

By the way, what did Rosemary beach do (I may have missed it)?

Where in the world is that coming from? Is that in the new wording of the ordinance? If you leave items on the beach 3 times you can be arrested!?
I thought they would just remove the offending items. I've had a flu the past week or so and haven't been keeping up well. Maybe I missed this part.

But really, DEADLY FORCE!!??

Where in the world is that coming from? Is that in the new wording of the ordinance? If you leave items on the beach 3 times you can be arrested!?
I thought they would just remove the offending items. I've had a flu the past week or so and haven't been keeping up well. Maybe I missed this part.

But really, DEADLY FORCE!!??

REALLY!

When an officer is authorized to arrest a person for ANY reason, he is authorized to use DEADLY FORCE, if necessary.

I hope this answers your question...from today's Walton Sun:


Local residents divided over beach ordinance

By Sean Boone sean_boone@link.freedom.com

What authority does the county have to remove recreational items left on private beaches?
It’s a question the Walton Board of County Commissioners brought to the table at Tuesday’s scheduled meeting and had answered with sharp opinions from beach residents.
A public forum was held during the meeting to discuss changes to the South Walton Tourist Development Council’s Remove It Or Lose It program. The Walton County Sheriff’s Office is currently not removing items left on the beach overnight on private property until an ordinance is put in place.
Under the proposed ordinance, beach residents would be required to remove items such as beach chairs, towels, umbrellas and other items from the beach unless they have a permit from the county to leave a specific item.
Failure to comply would be punishable by fines and a possible jail sentence for a third offense.
One of the biggest critics at the meeting was Blue Mountain Beach resident Emmett Hildreth, who told the BCC it would be stepping outside of its boundary if it required private beach owners to adhere to any sanctioned beach enforcement regarding item abandonment.
“(This is) grand larceny by the county,” he said. “The property owners will stand together against this commission (if passed).”
Hildreth claimed the ordinance would hurt development and steer people away from buying in South Walton.
Commissioner Cindy Meadows disagreed.
“The number one thing the TDC records as to why people come here is a clean beach,” she said. “You are raising an issue that is selfish and totally out of line.”
South Walton resident Leonard Anderson said it was imperative to have a clean beach for the sake of sea turtles and quality of life for residents and doesn’t understand how the beach became private.
“I’m a little tired of hearing those beaches are private,” he said. “They weren’t in ‘91 (when I moved here).”
County Interim Attorney Mike Burke stated the beaches must comply with federal environmental standards and also recommended the ordinance be endorsed to meet these requirements and provide a healthy and safe beach.
The board took no action on the ordinance and moved for a second public forum to be held during the July 8 BCC meeting at the South Walton Courthouse Annex.

BMBW, that is hogwash. An officer cannot use deadly force unless he or she fears their life is threatened.

Now let's say that someone sets up their umbrella and chairs on the beach in front of your house. They leave their beach crap on the beach overnight. You are okay with that? You don't want the TDC to police that?

"BMBW, that is hogwash."

Uhhhh...that's BMBV not BMBW by the way.

I agree. The County's attempt to trivialize private property rights in the name of "clean beaches" IS hogwash. Most private property owners are quite capable of taking care of their own private property.

"An officer cannot use deadly force unless he or she fears their life is threatened."

No argument.

BUT who knows what could happen when an armed agent of the government comes to your home to arrest you for simply having your own umbrella on your own property for 3 nights.

"Now let's say that someone sets up their umbrella and chairs on the beach in front of your house. They leave their beach crap on the beach overnight. You are okay with that? You don't want the TDC to police that?"

They can't and they shouldn't.

they can and they do, so what do you want the gov't to do about the ones who leave their crap their overnight.

SJ, How about a REAL question?...........

Redfish Village owns an 80 foot lot as you know. Also as you know, the public has access rights to the sandy part of the lot via a public easement (that's how they got the whole mess passed by the way). Does this mean that the county has the authority to tell them what to do regarding "Remove It or Lose It"?

NDY, in general I agree with the "spirit" of your post except for the next to the last sentence.

Here's my next to last sentence:
What we have now are a bunch of whiners saying, like little kids, "you can't make me, it's mine."

Umm, I think you just proved my point. :roll:

"An officer cannot use deadly force unless he or she fears their life is threatened."

No argument.

BUT who knows what could happen when an armed agent of the government comes to your home to arrest you for simply having your own umbrella on your own property for 3 nights.

You are exaggerating. I read through the ordinance. I think if the owner is going to have a big hissy fit about their umbrella, then they are likely to express that when they go pay the first two fines. $100 first violation and $200 for the second.

From the proposed ordinance http://www.co.walton.fl.us/default.asp?id=241 (Click 'Tab C' to read proposed ordinance):
"5. Penalties.
a. Any person to whom a citation is issued shall pay the fine by the designated date or appear in county court at the time, date, and location designated in the citation.
b. Minimum civil penalties for violations of this section are as follows:
i. First violation $100.00
ii. Second violation $200.00
iii. Third and subsequent violations. Fine up to $500.00 and/or up to 60 days in jail."

The proposed ordinance also says that items that remain on the beach between an hour after dusk and an hour after sunrise without a permit will be deemed abandoned and will become the property of Walton County. If the County disposed of the umbrella after the first night, I don?t think they would write a citation at all.

You are exaggerating..........
.......
Third and subsequent violations. Fine up to $500.00 and/or up to 60 days in jail."

So what exactly did I exaggerate?

Here's my next to last sentence:
What we have now are a bunch of whiners saying, like little kids, "you can't make me, it's mine."

Umm, I think you just proved my point. :roll:

Nice. [ edit....forgot my to balance out your ; forgot my SoWal etiquette AND one more thing: I sincerely asked you 3 questions and this is all I get? ]

BUT who knows what could happen when an armed agent of the government comes to your home to arrest you for simply having your own umbrella on your own property for 3 nights.

Do you think the issue of a single private family home, lets say one at Blue Mountain Beach, who leaves a single umbrella out overnight on 3 separate occasions should allow the government to arrest that private property owner using "authorized" deadly force if necessary?

That's what we're talking about if some of the short sighted people at the county gets their way.

So what exactly did I exaggerate?

Exaggerating.

First you would have to get one citation and pay a fine, then you would have to get a second citation and pay a larger fine, then you would have to get a third citation and pay an even bigger fine - and MAYBE you could get yourself sentenced to up to 60 days in jail. Your example of an umbrella for 3 occasions will likely just cause you to "abandon" ownership of 3 umbrellas.

Exaggerating.

First you would have to get one citation and pay a fine, then you would have to get a second citation and pay a larger fine, then you would have to get a third citation and pay an even bigger fine - and MAYBE you could get yourself sentenced to up to 60 days in jail. Your example of an umbrella for 3 occasions will likely just cause you to "abandon" ownership of 3 umbrellas.

I think you just stated my case when you said "and MAYBE you could get yourself sentenced to up to 60 days in jail".

The point, again, that is intentionally ignored here is that one could go to jail for leaving their umbrella(s) out 3 times.

There are no shades of gray with that interpretation.

By the way, this is one hell of a "signal" for TDC to be sending out to increase tourism IMO.

The point, again, that is intentionally ignored here is that one could go to jail for leaving their umbrella(s) out 3 times.

There are no shades of gray with that interpretation.

No, you couldn't.

you could also apply for a permit to leave your crap on the beach.

you could also apply for a permit to leave your crap on the beach.

That could get stinky!

I'm aware of this permit stuff but it currently isn't required for private property owners or did I miss something?

Regarding the current authority that the county does have over public beach, do you think the county has same authority over privately owned beach that has a public easement recorded with it (such as Redfish Village)?

SJ, I don't why you're dodging the question. I don't have a clue or an opinion (imagine that).

SJ, How about a REAL question?...........

Redfish Village owns an 80 foot lot as you know. Also as you know, the public has access rights to the sandy part of the lot via a public easement (that's how they got the whole mess passed by the way). Does this mean that the county has the authority to tell them what to do regarding "Remove It or Lose It"?

Yes

Yes

Could you please elaborate just a tad?

Could you please elaborate just a tad?

No. Arguing, not debating, with you is pointless as I have found on many other occasions.

Nice. [ edit....forgot my to balance out your ; forgot my SoWal etiquette AND one more thing: I sincerely asked you 3 questions and this is all I get? ]

Some remedial education is required in the appropriate use of smileys for you, example to follow....

"BMBW, that is hogwash."

Uhhhh...that's BMBV not BMBW by the way.

I agree. The County's attempt to trivialize private property rights in the name of "clean beaches" IS hogwash. Most private property owners are quite capable of taking care of their own private property.

"An officer cannot use deadly force unless he or she fears their life is threatened."

No argument.

BUT who knows what could happen when an armed agent of the government comes to your home to arrest you for simply having your own umbrella on your own property for 3 nights.

"Now let's say that someone sets up their umbrella and chairs on the beach in front of your house. They leave their beach crap on the beach overnight. You are okay with that? You don't want the TDC to police that?"

They can't and they shouldn't.

Using the blue face with sunglasses smiley should be done when something funny or "cool" has been posted. Like successfully turning the tables on a previous poster. Maybe do some test posting and make some polls, find out truly if you are reaching your audience, then, after sharpening your skillz, return and post topical smileys and be laughed with, not laughed at.... (Am I using that right?). Feel free to ask for assistance anytime.