Religion in schools

[John R]

I went to catholic school from pre-K to 12th grade and got all the doctrine I needed for later in life. If religion is to be taught in any public school, then the religion of each child enrolled should be taught. It is the only fair way to represent the taxpayer's dollars, and never going to happen. If you must use school blocks to instruct what should really be happening at church, the family worship area, and CCD, then catholic school seems like the only way to go.

it is not fair for a Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist child to sit through instruction that in no way reflects his belief system.

 

[woodworker]

I went to catholic school from pre-K to 12th grade and got all the doctrine I needed for later in life. If religion is to be taught in any public school, then the religion of each child enrolled should be taught. It is the only fair way to represent the taxpayer's dollars, and never going to happen. If you must use school blocks to instruct what should really be happening at church, the family worship area, and CCD, then catholic school seems like the only way to go.

it is not fair for a Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist child to sit through instruction that in no way reflects his belief system.

That's why I say no religion in schools at all (including evolution). It used to be most people in this country (and it's schools) were at least aware of God, and chose to either follow or rebel. Now that immigration from other countries is easier and more accepted, other religions come along. But "traditional" Christians don't want to accept their beliefs any more than they want to accept ours.

I think teaching all religions in school would just confuse young minds, not to mention take away from subjects that actually set up children to run this country. Also, the schools would have to add a new religion to the curriculum every few months here lately.

Instruct your children in the home according to your religious beliefs, and teach them to be strong against the influence of other beliefs (which is what the emergent church of today doesn't do).


Uniforms probably aren't a bad idea, either. (I've about had it with the "skull and death" clothes.)

Of course, I speak from a traditional Christian standpoint-I'm sure there are many other opinions.

 

[Geo]

That's why I say no religion in schools at all (including evolution). It used to be most people in this country (and it's schools) were at least aware of God, and chose to either follow or rebel. Now that immigration from other countries is easier and more accepted, other religions come along. But "traditional" Christians don't want to accept their beliefs any more than they want to accept ours.

I think teaching all religions in school would just confuse young minds, not to mention take away from subjects that actually set up children to run this country. Also, the schools would have to add a new religion to the curriculum every few months here lately.

Instruct your children in the home according to your religious beliefs, and teach them to be strong against the influence of other beliefs (which is what the emergent church of today doesn't do).


Uniforms probably aren't a bad idea, either. (I've about had it with the "skull and death" clothes.)

Of course, I speak from a traditional Christian standpoint-I'm sure there are many other opinions.

Woodworker,

This is the second time I read this in your posts. It was hard work saying nothing the first time but I don't have it in me to let it go again.

You've inhaled too much sawdust and are confused. Evolution is science, not a religion.

You are on the right track that religion shouldn't be taught in public schools funded with taxpayer dollars. But it makes no logical sense at all to say that evolution shouldn't be taught in schools because religion shouldn't be.

Some Ted Haggard somewhere got the bright idea to frame parables of religion as competing theories with evolution (in an attempt to give scientific and general credibility to religion). It worked with folks immersed in religion. But it doesn't work with the rest of us who are thinking clearly.

This isn't all that different than saying that we shouldn't expose our kids to mathematical theorems and postulates, cellular mitosis, etc. because those are "religions" and "if my Jesus and Allah religions have to go then so too do your math and science religions".

 

[WhoDat1]

The First Ammendment provides that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This clearly states that congress shall not enforce "state" religion (an example of this is the Church of England) or prohit persons from freely excersising their religion.

Allowing student to form a faith based group as extracurricular activity is not forbidden. So long as ALL faiths represented in the school have equal opportunity to do so. (not during class hours I might add)

As far as class room prayer is concerned, so long as tests are part of school curriculum, there will be prayer in class. That being said, vocal prayer or participation in such should not be mandatory or even provided by state employees.

A student at an event (like graduation) is a private citizen and not a state employee and is protected in the "free exercise therof" clause. If you don't wish to participate don't. What are we to do if a graduate has the microphone and breaks into a "Hail Mary"? Arrest them? That is their right. It is YOUR right not to like it....but it shall not be forbidden as it is protected speech of a private citizen. If the principal or a teacher does it....thats different.

Let me say that, as a Christian, creationisn and science DO NOT conflict for me. It IS possible to believe the Bible AND your science books theories....Those of you of the "either or" train of thought should really just be secure in your faith (or lack therof) and keep your mind open and tolerant of other points of view. If a dog barks at you, you look pretty silly if you bark back. Be secure in your beliefs while exploring others.....you may just learn something about yourself.

Peace of Christ be with you all!
Todd

 

[Geo]

The First Ammendment provides that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This clearly states that congress shall not enforce "state" religion (an example of this is the Church of England) or prohit persons from freely excersising their religion.

Allowing student to form a faith based group as extracurricular activity is not forbidden. So long as ALL faiths represented in the school have equal opportunity to do so. (not during class hours I might add)

As far as class room prayer is concerned, so long as tests are part of school curriculum, there will be prayer in class. That being said, vocal prayer or participation in such should not be mandatory or even provided by state employees.

A student at an event (like graduation) is a private citizen and not a state employee and is protected in the "free exercise therof" clause. If you don't wish to participate don't. What are we to do if a graduate has the microphone and breaks into a "Hail Mary"? Arrest them? That is their right. It is YOUR right not to like it....but it shall not be forbidden as it is protected speech of a private citizen. If the principal or a teacher does it....thats different.

Let me say that, as a Christian, creationisn and science DO NOT conflict for me. It IS possible to believe the Bible AND your science books theories....Those of you of the "either or" train of thought should really just be secure in your faith (or lack therof) and keep your mind open and tolerant of other points of view. If a dog barks at you, you look pretty silly if you bark back. Be secure in your beliefs while exploring others.....you may just learn something about yourself.

Peace of Christ be with you all!
Todd

Todd,
There is an amendment that protects our freedom of speech. Does this mean that teachers violate students' rights if they require students to remain quiet during class?

What about the amendment that provides for our right to bear arms? Does this mean that our kids can and should be packing heat while they are at school?

The stance that religion should not be formally taught in public schools (which includes morning prayer) does not violate the civil rights of believers/followers of any god or religion any more than prohibiting cell phone usage during class does. There is a time and a place for everything.

Have all the after school prayer clubs you want. If you want to privately say grace before eating lunch- go right ahead.

But if you want prayer time during formal school hours, you have the freedom to send your kids to a parochial school. I attended St. Denis Catholic School for grades 1-8 and Marist High School (Christian brothers, all boys, shirt and tie required). Both had after school CCD programs for public school kids.

I don't understand why this is even still an issue in this day in age.

 

[WhoDat1]

There is an amendment that protects our freedom of speech. Does this mean that teachers violate students' rights if they require students to remain quiet during class?

What about the amendment that provides for our right to bear arms? Does this mean that our kids can and should be packing heat while they are at school?

I don't think I said anything that conflicts with this, did I? We agree maybe more than you realize! Prayer SHOULD NOT be authorized by state employees. Silent prayer will always be in class. Vocal prayer that disrupts the learning process can be regulated, of course! This disrupts the learning process. Rights can be regulated where there is a substantial state interest, such as educating or protecting citizens. (in the case of the second amendmet, as you mentioned)

A private citizen graduating from the school at a graduation ceremony who has been offered the chance to speak at the podium should have the right to say what he or she wants. In this forum is where the first amendment matters most. Free assembly and freedom of political or religious thought. To say "you can't say this" to a person when they are going to address a crowd that has peacably gathered is rather facist. In this forum, they ARE THERE to EXPRESS themselves. Not learn the school curriculum. Ther IS NO substantial state interest in silencing persons who are addressing a crowd peacefully assembled for the purpose of LISTENING to a private citizen. The state interest in regulating speech only applies when the speech creates a IMMEDIATE danger to property or health of the public. For example, you cannot yell bomb in an airport or fire in a movie theater(unless of course this is actually happening). This will cause panic and endanger persons that the state is empowered to protect.

When we begin to regulate speech, the exercise of religion or personal freedoms in general without a substantial state interest, we have put government above personal freedoms. This is not democracy.

It is funny that we are having this discussion because i am generally viewed as a liberal by most of the people I know....I guess maybe I've just found peace enough to be uber-tolerant.

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, "he that would give up liberty for security...deserves neither..."

 

[Geo]

There is an amendment that protects our freedom of speech. Does this mean that teachers violate students' rights if they require students to remain quiet during class?

What about the amendment that provides for our right to bear arms? Does this mean that our kids can and should be packing heat while they are at school?

I don't think I said anything that conflicts with this, did I? We agree maybe more than you realize! Prayer SHOULD NOT be authorized by state employees. Silent prayer will always be in class. Vocal prayer that disrupts the learning process can be regulated, of course! This disrupts the learning process. Rights can be regulated where there is a substantial state interest, such as educating or protecting citizens. (in the case of the second amendmet, as you mentioned)

A private citizen graduating from the school at a graduation ceremony who has been offered the chance to speak at the podium should have the right to say what he or she wants. In this forum is where the first amendment matters most. Free assembly and freedom of political or religious thought. To say "you can't say this" to a person when they are going to address a crowd that has peacably gathered is rather facist. In this forum, they ARE THERE to EXPRESS themselves. Not learn the school curriculum. Ther IS NO substantial state interest in silencing persons who are addressing a crowd peacefully assembled for the purpose of LISTENING to a private citizen. The state interest in regulating speech only applies when the speech creates a IMMEDIATE danger to property or health of the public. For example, you cannot yell bomb in an airport or fire in a movie theater(unless of course this is actually happening). This will cause panic and endanger persons that the state is empowered to protect.

When we begin to regulate speech, the exercise of religion or personal freedoms in general without a substantial state interest, we have put government above personal freedoms. This is not democracy.

It is funny that we are having this discussion because i am generally viewed as a liberal by most of the people I know....I guess maybe I've just found peace enough to be uber-tolerant.

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, "he that would give up liberty for security...deserves neither..."

Ok. I'm with ya. But I am not aware of anyone on this thread who is against prayer in public schools who believes that the student speaking at the podium at graduation can't say what's on their mind.

These are not the same thing.

 

[woodworker]

Woodworker,

This is the second time I read this in your posts. It was hard work saying nothing the first time but I don't have it in me to let it go again.

You've inhaled too much sawdust and are confused. Evolution is science, not a religion.

You are on the right track that religion shouldn't be taught in public schools funded with taxpayer dollars. But it makes no logical sense at all to say that evolution shouldn't be taught in schools because religion shouldn't be.

Some Ted Haggard somewhere got the bright idea to frame parables of religion as competing theories with evolution (in an attempt to give scientific and general credibility to religion). It worked with folks immersed in religion. But it doesn't work with the rest of us who are thinking clearly.

This isn't all that different than saying that we shouldn't expose our kids to mathematical theorems and postulates, cellular mitosis, etc. because those are "religions" and "if my Jesus and Allah religions have to go then so too do your math and science religions".

Inhaled too much sawdust - now that was funny, I'll give ya that!

I really don't want to turn this thread into the creation/evolution debate, and this is why I suggested PM before, so everyone wouldn't have to suffer it.

I don't know who Ted Haggard is, I just see the obvious pitfalls with the evolution theory (or do they not call it that anymore?).

I'm sorry, but I don't see how the gap theory fits into the Bible at all! Without getting in depth, I'll ask a simple question -


The Bible says - on the seventh day God ended his work (or evolution?) which he had made, and rested on the seventh day and blessed the seventh day.

How many millions of years did God rest? Remember now, he ended his work (man, animals, well everything). Are you saying that the fish grew legs and things took on different shapes while man, animals (birds, cattle, etc.-you read it) watched. If so, then when do I get my fins?

And then the church says to rest on the seventh day like God did. I don't think I want to rest that long (millions of years) - I get bored after just a day or two.

Well, maybe days one through six were billions of years and the seventh day was actually one day - In that case, I think I'd like a break before that!

And what about the evening and the morning being a day stuff? If that actually was a day, then God sure had a lot of foresight to make the trees and plants after that day, because they don't grow real good in the dark. That's why we grow our tomato plants outside instead of in the cellar!

Geo, I'm not asking you to believe all of this; I'm asking you to understand how the teachings of evolution can undermine the teachings of the Bible, just like the teachings of the Bible can undermine the teachings of, say, Hinduism or any other religion.

When my child comes home from school and asks about dinosaurs, evolution, seashells up in the mountains, Grand Canyon, etc. - I have an answer.
Obviously, other Christians won't. Therefore, their children might start to question the Bible. Understand-I'm not worried about me and mine here.

And I think we both know that math, spelling, sentence structure, typing, etc. are pretty much widely accepted. I can't think of a mathematical equation are an order of letters in a word that would offend anyones religion (actually, calculus did offend me when I was in school).

 

[dgsevier]

A private citizen graduating from the school at a graduation ceremony who has been offered the chance to speak at the podium should have the right to say what he or she wants. In this forum is where the first amendment matters most.

I suggest you do some quick reading on the concept of limited public forums.

 

[woodworker]

Ok. I'm with ya. But I am not aware of anyone on this thread who is against prayer in public schools who believes that the student speaking at the podium at graduation can't say what's on their mind.

These are not the same thing.

Can you rephrase that?

I thought that was exactly what this thread was about.

Are you saying that those against school prayer are also not against prayer at school functions. Isn't that the same thing?

Also, are you saying that there is prayer in homeroom or first hour? Didn't have that in my school. Well I can understand where that would offend people.

I thought "no religion in school" meant no mention of God allowed.