Religion in schools

I'm really torn on this one. I was raised to JUMP. We refrained from spanking our son and used "time outs" and the other more PC methods. I really don't think they work and I have to ask our son 10 times to do just about anything. Everything is a discussion, debate and negotiation and I must admit I am fed up with where we are.

Interestingly enough, the concept of the bible as a literal instead of symbolic document really only goes back to the 19th century.

SN:
At the risk of getting "blasted" again, I am going to respond. I really thought your ideas before were interesting and I wanted to explore them. But, I did not want to argue about converting anyone to any certain religious belief.

So, can we explore the idea of authority without anyone thinking I am doing more than just sharing my opinion and looking for others' opinions, please.

If children are not taught to question...how do they learn to think for themselves? Holding a position of authority does not automatically make someone correct on every issue...if we do not question based on our own critical thinking, then we are simply following along without examining the beliefs, the orders, the doctrine, whatever it is.

Even a member of the military has the right to question an order if the member believes it to be inappropriate or illegal. Standing on principles and standing up for our rights is part of what makes America different from other places.

And, anyone who has any experience with doctors and hospitals, better learn to question authority...there are too many instances of patients who do not, losing the wrong leg or arm!

Questioning does not necessarily mean ignoring...but it does mean thinking about what you are about to do and examining whether or not that is the proper course to follow for you.

I would prefer to have someone: a child, a co-worker, a friend --think about an issue and discuss it with respect; than just have follow an "authority" figure simply because of the role that person fills.

IMO there is a huge difference in blindly following authority and having no manners, no social skills, no respect for parents, teachers, etc. And, I also believe that to be respected, one must show respect.

I raised my son this way and I had absolutely no difficulty with him; he is a very successful man and I am proud to say, he and his wife are raising their children this way as well and they are well behaved.

Each of them has a mind of their own; they are very capable and smart; and often they have ideas and interpretations that are better than those of the adults in their lives. We do not deny them the respect for their ideas when they are different than ours, we cherish the fact that they think for themselves.

By the same token we do not tolerate inappropriate, rude behavior...but, we seldom see it. I believe this is because the children's opinion's are respected; they are allowed a voice...while they know that parents or grandparents have the last word.


When my son was growing up there were few rules that were not negotiable...those that were, were never breached. We had some heated discussions of course and once in awhile I had to put my foot down, but more often than not, we were able to work through the differences in a civil way...regardless of whether he was 5 or 15.

He attended a school that encouraged critical thinking and discussion. His opinion was respected in the classroom and on the playground, by both the faculty and his peers. He returned the respect because he had been taught by his parents and his teachers that was the appropriate way.

I am convinced that the respect he was shown as an individual made all the difference. Today, he is confident to offer different ideas in all kinds of situations; is competent in who he is and the work he does both professionally and as a father; and he questions people all the time. He has expanded his knowledge and areas of interest because of his critical examination of what he is told.

On the other hand, I work with people every day who have been taught that they can not question...that they must do something "because the professor said this or that" As a result, they are scared to death to ask questions...they are lacking in self confidence and they are not achieving anywhere near their potential.

I see that all change when they learn that their opinion is valid; they can question, and they can be respected for having a different opinion. I think we all benefit when everyone is respected for the person he or she is; as parents and teachers we must teach social skills and appropriate behavior, but surely that does not mean blindly following...and never questioning authority.

Does it?

Interestingly enough, the concept of the bible as a literal instead of symbolic document really only goes back to the 19th century.

That's not what the Bible says! lol

I was taught, "Don't discuss, politics, money or religion at the supper table." LOL

This, way before cyber communications and message boards.

All amazingly great, intelligent points in this thread. What impresses me most is the passion in which each person presents themselves/beliefs. Please don't ever lose sight of your passion.....it's a huge part of who you are!!

Cheers~~~~~~~~

It taught me that when my parents said jump, they meant JUMP. Not later, not after negotiating it, NOW.

"Time Out" and loss of privileges was useless in 1960's Walton County, as there was nothing to do and you had no privileges anyway.

As for kids that are taught to question authority...that just makes me sad.

I know what you mean--but, thank goodness, my parents encouraged livily discussions at the dinner table, and while my Mom often became frustrated with the four of us, my dad was a real sport -- especially about politics and religion.

We didn't have much money, so that was not often a subject.

Now, my Mom is 92 and once a month we all get together to have lunch with her; she still gets a bit miffed with my brothers and me and our "arguments"....all the grand kids and even the great grandkids get into the act though...and we learn a lot!

I, too, appreciate the information and passion that people bring to the Board.

Ahhh....fresh horses.

O.K.-First off, I'm not here to convert anybody, let's be clear on that! But I do believe that having "no religion" is a cop-out. Having a belief in one entity or another has been the norm for thousands of years. Suddenly, all you "learned" folks want to wipe religion out, starting with the children, which is how any new way of thought is accomplished. May take a generation or two.

Since we're getting way off topic here (religion in schools), let me try to package my point and present it to you.....

It would probably best at this point to keep all religion out of the schools, for your sakes, even though some of the larger universities, not to mention america, was built based on religion.

But - all religion must be kept out! This includes evolution, etc. Any historic belief that can't be obviously proven be an unbiased majority (past or present). Keep any "ideas" or "psychologies" out of the curriculum. Keep it to literacy, problem solving, and skill building. Don't even mention religious choice in school.

That way we can all raise our children based on our personal beliefs or religions, or let them have free rein if that's how you want to raise them.

If you're going to teach "millions and billions of years ago" in school, that is religion-and it undermines the teaching of our "family" religions at the home.

Norm doesn't mean correct, right, wrong, proper, improper, accurate, innaccurate, moral, immoral. It's more a matter of acceptability which again does not pertain to rightness. In some communities it was once acceptable to hold lotteries for public stonings. It was the norm. You are correct on the count that as man has learned more about the universe phenomena once attributed to the mystical have acquired a more material or secular explanation. You don't see epileptics undergoing exorcisms anymore, although maybe in some circles in Walton County the notion is entertained.

I went to catholic school from pre-K to 12th grade and got all the doctrine I needed for later in life. If religion is to be taught in any public school, then the religion of each child enrolled should be taught. It is the only fair way to represent the taxpayer's dollars, and never going to happen. If you must use school blocks to instruct what should really be happening at church, the family worship area, and CCD, then catholic school seems like the only way to go.

it is not fair for a Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist child to sit through instruction that in no way reflects his belief system.

That's why I say no religion in schools at all (including evolution). It used to be most people in this country (and it's schools) were at least aware of God, and chose to either follow or rebel. Now that immigration from other countries is easier and more accepted, other religions come along. But "traditional" Christians don't want to accept their beliefs any more than they want to accept ours.

I think teaching all religions in school would just confuse young minds, not to mention take away from subjects that actually set up children to run this country. Also, the schools would have to add a new religion to the curriculum every few months here lately.

Instruct your children in the home according to your religious beliefs, and teach them to be strong against the influence of other beliefs (which is what the emergent church of today doesn't do).


Uniforms probably aren't a bad idea, either. (I've about had it with the "skull and death" clothes.)

Of course, I speak from a traditional Christian standpoint-I'm sure there are many other opinions.

The First Ammendment provides that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This clearly states that congress shall not enforce "state" religion (an example of this is the Church of England) or prohit persons from freely excersising their religion.

Allowing student to form a faith based group as extracurricular activity is not forbidden. So long as ALL faiths represented in the school have equal opportunity to do so. (not during class hours I might add)

As far as class room prayer is concerned, so long as tests are part of school curriculum, there will be prayer in class. That being said, vocal prayer or participation in such should not be mandatory or even provided by state employees.

A student at an event (like graduation) is a private citizen and not a state employee and is protected in the "free exercise therof" clause. If you don't wish to participate don't. What are we to do if a graduate has the microphone and breaks into a "Hail Mary"? Arrest them? That is their right. It is YOUR right not to like it....but it shall not be forbidden as it is protected speech of a private citizen. If the principal or a teacher does it....thats different.

Let me say that, as a Christian, creationisn and science DO NOT conflict for me. It IS possible to believe the Bible AND your science books theories....Those of you of the "either or" train of thought should really just be secure in your faith (or lack therof) and keep your mind open and tolerant of other points of view. If a dog barks at you, you look pretty silly if you bark back. Be secure in your beliefs while exploring others.....you may just learn something about yourself.

Peace of Christ be with you all!
Todd

There is an amendment that protects our freedom of speech. Does this mean that teachers violate students' rights if they require students to remain quiet during class?

What about the amendment that provides for our right to bear arms? Does this mean that our kids can and should be packing heat while they are at school?

I don't think I said anything that conflicts with this, did I? We agree maybe more than you realize! Prayer SHOULD NOT be authorized by state employees. Silent prayer will always be in class. Vocal prayer that disrupts the learning process can be regulated, of course! This disrupts the learning process. Rights can be regulated where there is a substantial state interest, such as educating or protecting citizens. (in the case of the second amendmet, as you mentioned)

A private citizen graduating from the school at a graduation ceremony who has been offered the chance to speak at the podium should have the right to say what he or she wants. In this forum is where the first amendment matters most. Free assembly and freedom of political or religious thought. To say "you can't say this" to a person when they are going to address a crowd that has peacably gathered is rather facist. In this forum, they ARE THERE to EXPRESS themselves. Not learn the school curriculum. Ther IS NO substantial state interest in silencing persons who are addressing a crowd peacefully assembled for the purpose of LISTENING to a private citizen. The state interest in regulating speech only applies when the speech creates a IMMEDIATE danger to property or health of the public. For example, you cannot yell bomb in an airport or fire in a movie theater(unless of course this is actually happening). This will cause panic and endanger persons that the state is empowered to protect.

When we begin to regulate speech, the exercise of religion or personal freedoms in general without a substantial state interest, we have put government above personal freedoms. This is not democracy.

It is funny that we are having this discussion because i am generally viewed as a liberal by most of the people I know....I guess maybe I've just found peace enough to be uber-tolerant.

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, "he that would give up liberty for security...deserves neither..."

Woodworker,

This is the second time I read this in your posts. It was hard work saying nothing the first time but I don't have it in me to let it go again.

You've inhaled too much sawdust and are confused. Evolution is science, not a religion.

You are on the right track that religion shouldn't be taught in public schools funded with taxpayer dollars. But it makes no logical sense at all to say that evolution shouldn't be taught in schools because religion shouldn't be.

Some Ted Haggard somewhere got the bright idea to frame parables of religion as competing theories with evolution (in an attempt to give scientific and general credibility to religion). It worked with folks immersed in religion. But it doesn't work with the rest of us who are thinking clearly.

This isn't all that different than saying that we shouldn't expose our kids to mathematical theorems and postulates, cellular mitosis, etc. because those are "religions" and "if my Jesus and Allah religions have to go then so too do your math and science religions".

A private citizen graduating from the school at a graduation ceremony who has been offered the chance to speak at the podium should have the right to say what he or she wants. In this forum is where the first amendment matters most.

Ok. I'm with ya. But I am not aware of anyone on this thread who is against prayer in public schools who believes that the student speaking at the podium at graduation can't say what's on their mind.

These are not the same thing.

Inhaled too much sawdust - now that was funny, I'll give ya that!

I really don't want to turn this thread into the creation/evolution debate, and this is why I suggested PM before, so everyone wouldn't have to suffer it.

I don't know who Ted Haggard is, I just see the obvious pitfalls with the evolution theory (or do they not call it that anymore?).

I'm sorry, but I don't see how the gap theory fits into the Bible at all! Without getting in depth, I'll ask a simple question -


The Bible says - on the seventh day God ended his work (or evolution?) which he had made, and rested on the seventh day and blessed the seventh day.

How many millions of years did God rest? Remember now, he ended his work (man, animals, well everything). Are you saying that the fish grew legs and things took on different shapes while man, animals (birds, cattle, etc.-you read it) watched. If so, then when do I get my fins?

And then the church says to rest on the seventh day like God did. I don't think I want to rest that long (millions of years) - I get bored after just a day or two.

Well, maybe days one through six were billions of years and the seventh day was actually one day - In that case, I think I'd like a break before that!

And what about the evening and the morning being a day stuff? If that actually was a day, then God sure had a lot of foresight to make the trees and plants after that day, because they don't grow real good in the dark. That's why we grow our tomato plants outside instead of in the cellar!

Geo, I'm not asking you to believe all of this; I'm asking you to understand how the teachings of evolution can undermine the teachings of the Bible, just like the teachings of the Bible can undermine the teachings of, say, Hinduism or any other religion.

When my child comes home from school and asks about dinosaurs, evolution, seashells up in the mountains, Grand Canyon, etc. - I have an answer.
Obviously, other Christians won't. Therefore, their children might start to question the Bible. Understand-I'm not worried about me and mine here.

And I think we both know that math, spelling, sentence structure, typing, etc. are pretty much widely accepted. I can't think of a mathematical equation are an order of letters in a word that would offend anyones religion (actually, calculus did offend me when I was in school).