Religion in schools

Can you rephrase that?

I thought that was exactly what this thread was about.

Are you saying that those against school prayer are also not against prayer at school functions. Isn't that the same thing?

Also, are you saying that there is prayer in homeroom or first hour? Didn't have that in my school. Well I can understand where that would offend people.

I thought "no religion in school" meant no mention of God allowed.

WW,
I have read and re-read your posts and I still don't know any more than when I started. You are so very brave to keep up your fight against facts and logic. But, in the end, I'm afraid your cause will end tragically.

WW,
I have read and re-read your posts and I still don't know any more than when I started. You are so very brave to keep up your fight against facts and logic. But, in the end, I'm afraid your cause will end tragically.

Oh, I've been well aware that my cause will end tragically the entire time, believe you me!

And I have "caught the drift" that it's time to end this debate (thank goodness). This whole argument has gotten pretty pathetic (and off topic).

Please Kurt, don't ever create a category for religious discussion!

I'm still going to watch this thread, but feel no reason to respond unless I am called out.

My closing statements-

Belief in the Bible requires a certain amount of faith.
Belief in evolution and gap theories requires a certain amount of faith.
All religions require a certain amount of faith.







Thanks guys & gals -

I suggest you do some quick reading on the concept of limited public forums.

The restriction of a limited public forum must be able to withstand strict judicial scrutiny of its effect on First Amendment rights.

The above was posted from the link you suggested. It simply backs up my statement that free speech will not be restricted in a public (OR limited) public forum unless there is a strong, compelling state interest to restrict the speech. The state interest has been limited in federal courts to restrict dangerous speech that can potentially harm persons or property. This is the "strict judicial scrutiny" mentioned above from your link. A prayer by a graduate at a graduation ceremony is not restricted by the federal courts. Local jurisdictions may be more restrictive is they wish, but under the strict judicial scrutiny rule of the federal courts, if its challenged, the First Amendment will prevail.

This is Constitutional Law 101, folks.

Thanks Dr. Allen

In Christ,
Todd

My daughter has been a victim of this fundementalist tripe-wow-christian charity;amazing.

When you see your myth as history youre missing the point. So are other 'fundemantalists' we call terrorists.
same deal.
Our local Bible thumper wanted to turn my 14 year old daughter over his knee & give her a 'spanking' in school-that's some kinda twisted higher education.
He's luck he's not eating thru a straw for that one.
My personal relationship with God isnt in anyone's jurisdiction.
There are better topics-I cant believe the courts layeddown on this-I believe the last 6 years is the clostest we've come to facism sice Dupont tried to take out FDR & tobogan his anti-wall street new deal down the abbyss
bless you all, & your diversity-That;s American.
m

Oh, I've been well aware that my cause will end tragically the entire time, believe you me!

And I have "caught the drift" that it's time to end this debate (thank goodness). This whole argument has gotten pretty pathetic (and off topic).

Please Kurt, don't ever create a category for religious discussion!

I'm still going to watch this thread, but feel no reason to respond unless I am called out.

My closing statements-

Belief in the Bible requires a certain amount of faith.
Belief in evolution and gap theories requires a certain amount of faith.
All religions require a certain amount of faith.



Please do not respond!




Thanks guys & gals -

You must have some secret powers.

I just spent a whole lot of time on what I believe is one of my best posts ever (it's all relative) responding to you. I was so proud of it and pleased with myself that I articulated my precise thoughts and feelings that I even copied it to my clipboard before hitting the final "Submit Reply" button.

At that point I lost my connection and then got stuck on a conference call.

When I reconnected to wi-fi and went to reply I hit CTRL V and nothing. It all vanished.

So you get what you want for now. I am not responding because I do not have the cognitive capacity to recreate that one.

But if you chime back in all deals are off. You can't expect to post, have your last word and then declare you are not accepting replies. It doesn't work that way. Not here and not with this group.




Cheers, G

You must have some secret powers.

I just spent a whole lot of time on what I believe is one of my best posts ever (it's all relative) responding to you. I was so proud of it and pleased with myself that I articulated my precise thoughts and feelings that I even copied it to my clipboard before hitting the final "Submit Reply" button.

At that point I lost my connection and then got stuck on a conference call.

When I reconnected to wi-fi and went to reply I hit CTRL V and nothing. It all vanished.

So you get what you want for now. I am not responding because I do not have the cognitive capacity to recreate that one.

But if you chime back in all deals are off. You can't expect to post, have your last word and then declare you are not accepting replies. It doesn't work that way. Not here and not with this group.




Cheers, G

I believe I said I would respond if I was called out (read my last post).

If you can remember what you wanted to post, by all means post it. It doesn't have to be that eloquent.

I'm just backing away quietly because I think this has turned into some silly showdown between a few of us. The other participants of this thread didn't ask for that and don't deserve it.

But I know it stinks not to be able to present your case fully. I got my last thought out, you have every right to do the same. But I'm not going to drag these people through the muck anymore, after that.

I'm not going away with a "winning" attitude if it's of any consolation to you.

Please finish - fire away, drop your gun and run in the opposite direction and I promise I'll do the same!

Then if you want a response from me later, let me know (clearly) and I'll come back (I'll still be armed though!) :funn:


(By the way, I don't think any more or less of anyone because of what they say on a message board or believe in - not that I personally know you, but I don't pick my friends according to their beliefs. Just don't like when people assume things without knowing both sides. Or, like lucifersam said, maybe I'm drunk.
But, I'm not your typical everyday Bible thumper, though!)

That's why I say no religion in schools at all (including evolution). It used to be most people in this country (and it's schools) were at least aware of God, and chose to either follow or rebel. Now that immigration from other countries is easier and more accepted, other religions come along. But "traditional" Christians don't want to accept their beliefs any more than they want to accept ours.

I think teaching all religions in school would just confuse young minds, not to mention take away from subjects that actually set up children to run this country. Also, the schools would have to add a new religion to the curriculum every few months here lately.

Instruct your children in the home according to your religious beliefs, and teach them to be strong against the influence of other beliefs (which is what the emergent church of today doesn't do).


Uniforms probably aren't a bad idea, either. (I've about had it with the "skull and death" clothes.)

Of course, I speak from a traditional Christian standpoint-I'm sure there are many other opinions.

so everyone in the beginning was christian....is that why we killed the injuns?

The restriction of a limited public forum must be able to withstand strict judicial scrutiny of its effect on First Amendment rights.

The above was posted from the link you suggested. It simply backs up my statement that free speech will not be restricted in a public (OR limited) public forum unless there is a strong, compelling state interest to restrict the speech. The state interest has been limited in federal courts to restrict dangerous speech that can potentially harm persons or property. This is the "strict judicial scrutiny" mentioned above from your link. A prayer by a graduate at a graduation ceremony is not restricted by the federal courts. Local jurisdictions may be more restrictive is they wish, but under the strict judicial scrutiny rule of the federal courts, if its challenged, the First Amendment will prevail.

This is Constitutional Law 101, folks.

Thanks Dr. Allen

In Christ,
Todd

the compelling interest would be separation of church and state[the state being public education]. does the power of christ compel you to receive it?

By the way, I deleted part of post #103 to make myself more, uh, accountable.

Oh, I've been well aware that my cause will end tragically the entire time, believe you me!

And I have "caught the drift" that it's time to end this debate (thank goodness). This whole argument has gotten pretty pathetic (and off topic).

Please Kurt, don't ever create a category for religious discussion!

I'm still going to watch this thread, but feel no reason to respond unless I am called out.

My closing statements-

Belief in the Bible requires a certain amount of faith.
Belief in evolution and gap theories requires a certain amount of faith.
All religions require a certain amount of faith.







Thanks guys & gals -

a casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything- frederich nietzsche

so everyone in the beginning was christian....is that why we killed the injuns?

Shhhhh...don't tell the kids we killed the injuns!


Define "everyone" in the "beginning". Are you talking America, time, what?

You're drunk.

WW,
I have read and re-read your posts and I still don't know any more than when I started. You are so very brave to keep up your fight against facts and logic. But, in the end, I'm afraid your cause will end tragically.

............... You can't expect to post, have your last word and then declare you are not accepting replies. It doesn't work that way. Not here and not with this group.



Cheers, G

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:scratch:...Anyone remember SandyBanks?


.

Shhhhh...don't tell the kids we killed the injuns!


Define "everyone" in the "beginning". Are you talking America, time, what?

we gave the injuns a christian burial.

the compelling interest would be separation of church and state[the state being public education]. does the power of christ compel you to receive it?

Where does the phrase "seperation of church and state" appear in the constitution? re read the first amendment.

So what your saying, in a "limited" public forum, your right NOT to hear certain words or ideas outweigh the other individuals right to say them?

Keep in mind, I do not endorse organized school prayer. I speaking about a public forum, such as a graduation ceremony. AND I have previously stated that a state employee such as the principal or a teacher should NOT provide a prayer. However, if a private citizen, graduating with honors , is allowed the microphone, she should be allowed to speak her mind. Anarchist, Hindu, Muslim, whatever! Dangerous and irresponsible speeches liable to cause injury to persons or property are ALREADY restricted by law.

Prayer IS NOT a compelling state interest to restrcit protected speech. An 18 yr old praying at her graduation IS NOT establishing a religion or forcing persons to convert. Would it compel you?

The "seperation of church and state " is a phrase used by one of the framers of the Constitution, but not actually in the document. That being said, if you read the first Amendment you will see that free speech AND free excercise of religion IS protected. It only FORBIS cingress from ESTABLISHING state religion.

I may not agree with your words sir, but I would DIE for your right to speak them!

In Christ

Todd

Where does the phrase "seperation of church and state" appear in the constitution? re read the first amendment.

So what your saying, in a "limited" public forum, your right NOT to hear certain words or ideas outweigh the other individuals right to say them?

Keep in mind, I do not endorse organized school prayer. I speaking about a public forum, such as a graduation ceremony. AND I have previously stated that a state employee such as the principal or a teacher should NOT provide a prayer. However, if a private citizen, graduating with honors , is allowed the microphone, she should be allowed to speak her mind. Anarchist, Hindu, Muslim, whatever! Dangerous and irresponsible speeches liable to cause injury to persons or property are ALREADY restricted by law.

Prayer IS NOT a compelling state interest to restrcit protected speech. An 18 yr old praying at her graduation IS NOT establishing a religion or forcing persons to convert. Would it compel you?

The "seperation of church and state " is a phrase used by one of the framers of the Constitution, but not actually in the document. That being said, if you read the first Amendment you will see that free speech AND free excercise of religion IS protected. It only FORBIS cingress from ESTABLISHING state religion.

I may not agree with your words sir, but I would DIE for your right to speak them!

In Christ

Todd

prayer compelling religion? it would depend on the volume and interruption to the education process. who determines dangerous and irresponsible speech in an environment of unlimited free speech? christians?

we gave the injuns a christian burial.

Ah - I read you now.

Good point. I can't explain all the acts that have gone before us. There's plenty of sin in man's christianity, though, and it can take over if you twist the Word. That, of course, doesn't approve genocide.

It's funny you say this after I said "showdown" and "armed".

By the way, Hitler thought he was a christian too.

I hereby declare the Last Word.

I hereby declare the Last Word.

:leaving:

:leaving:

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:scratch:...Anyone remember SandyBanks?


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sandybanks ruined the guilty pleasures thread.:angry:

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:scratch:...Anyone remember SandyBanks?


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Is this some mutant troll?

Just to clear things up...
The Bible has no place in the classroom because it is an ancient unproven book of stories handed down for almost 2000 years largely by word of mouth. Evolution on the other hand is a product of Modern Science, which in no way corresponded with the primitive time period that the Bible was conceived in. When we are dealing with actual fact, such as evolution, then it does have a place in the classroom.


View attachment 11913

Just to clear things up...
The Bible has no place in the classroom because it is an ancient unproven book of stories handed down for almost 2000 years largely by word of mouth. Evolution on the other hand is a product of Modern Science, which in no way corresponded with the primitive time period that the Bible was conceived in. When we are dealing with actual fact, such as evolution, then it does have a place in the classroom.


View attachment 11913

Austin, you're groovy and I digg you, but whose alter ego are you???? ;-)

sandybanks ruined the guilty pleasures thread.:angry:

Hey - is Sandy Banks still around??

Hey - is Sandy Banks still around??

Well, don't go looking for this one on the Good News Thread*.

*...