Religion in schools

An expert is a person who avoids the small errors while sweeping on to the grand fallacy. - Steven Weinberg

:scratch:

I think one of the great historical contributions of science is to weaken the hold of religion. That's a good thing. - Steven Weinberg



What was that percentage thing again?

Boy this thread really took off since I was last here. It's saddening to see people attacking someone for their beliefs in here, or attacking them praying regularly, or for voicing an opinion. Woodworker, you're a good sport, thanks for posting.

I'd like to just add a couple comments to something you said earlier -

O.K.-First off, I'm not here to convert anybody, let's be clear on that! But I do believe that having "no religion" is a cop-out. Having a belief in one entity or another has been the norm for thousands of years. Suddenly, all you "learned" folks want to wipe religion out, starting with the children, which is how any new way of thought is accomplished. May take a generation or two.

I'd just like to say I don't fit into this group. I have fond memories of church and a profound respect for religion and those who practice it. Trying to 'wipe out' religion, especially through a public school system, is as heinous as preventing one from practicing or allowing someone to force religion on someone without their consent as it is in direct conflict with our Constitutional Rights. I would defend anyone's right to practice what they believe within the confines of the rights afforded us through the Constitution.

It would probably best at this point to keep all religion out of the schools, for your sakes, even though some of the larger universities, not to mention america, was built based on religion.

I think there is a place, especially in university for education related to religion, especially religious history. I took courses at FSU on religious history and found them to be quite educational.

But - all religion must be kept out!

IMHO, the practive of religious principals and teachings must be kept out, not the education there of. Although not without loss, every time I hear that a Christmas play has been cancelled due to religious protests, I shed a tear. Hence I would never send my kids to public schools and instead choose a school more to my liking.

This includes evolution, etc. Any historic belief that can't be obviously proven be an unbiased majority (past or present). Keep any "ideas" or "psychologies" out of the curriculum. Keep it to literacy, problem solving, and skill building. Don't even mention religious choice in school.

That way we can all raise our children based on our personal beliefs or religions, or let them have free rein if that's how you want to raise them.

If you're going to teach "millions and billions of years ago" in school, that is religion-and it undermines the teaching of our "family" religions at the home.

This is the crux of the current issue. I think science though stands on high ground here. Science applies scientific method in an effort to find answers to questions. In science, all answers are suspect until proven. In effect science assumes it is wrong and goes to inordinately lengths to prove itself right. Science at every juncture attempts to filter belief from truth. There is no place for faith in science.

Religion takes the exact opposite approach, religious belief is right until proven wrong, and often, even when faced with overwhelming evidence that a belief lacks credibility, religion asserts itself with the concept of faith - one must believe, regardless of what contrary evidence is presented. So science has, ahem, more credibility. Which is why it is taught in schools.

With your example of evolution, it is not a faith, it is a theory. Religion on the other hand is not a theory, it is a faith. Theory is wrong until proven right, faith is right, forever, regardless. I think you can there is a very signifigant difference.

You're confusing two parables.

Yes, it is heroic for a person to be a trail blazer and different. This is a "black sheep".

The parable of the "lost Sheep" is about a sheep that had LOST it's way and finds itself in danger.

Jesus's parable speaks of the good shepherd, who leaves the ninety-nine to find the one lost. The righteous became angry with Jesus because he ate with tax collectors, spoke with prostitutes and sinners. He embraced those that the "godly" (lower case) of his day shunned, or worse...stoned ( we all remember the story of the adulterous woman). Jesus said,(paraphrase) does the shepherd not leave his flock to collect the one lost sheep?

The parable was used to desribe God's love for the lost sheep. Yes, the shepherd loves all of his sheep, but he will leave them to find the lost one and bring him home. And once he is home he will rejoice!

It is shocking to me the number of agnostics and atheists that are here in Sowal. Which are you, LuciferSam? I, and the other nintey-five percent of the world, invite you to find God. Whether it be in Islam, Taoism, Buddism or ,praise be, the New Testament.

I already know you won't though. An agnostic can't find God the way a criminal can't find a police officer. He doesn't want to.;-)

That being said, there are no atheists in fox holes. I can tell you that for a fact. I've SEEN people find God as they lay dying. That's no way to do it.

PAX
Todd

You have a lot of nerve to be "shocked" at someones lack of belief in the supernatural. And yes there are atheists in foxholes. There are several foxhole atheist societies dedicated to those who served.

I stand corrected. However, I have not had the chance to hold any of these folks as the cry for momma...then God..(in THAT order) while they die lying shot(or stabbed) in a ghetto.

Perhaps I along with the rest of us 'nursery rhymers" (all people of faith) are ignorant and the five percent of you who claim no faith are right.

We'll just have to wait and see.

As I said...a criminal can't find a police officer, because he doesn't want to. I am, of course.......and so are you. I am not here to evangelize and we've gotten off the topic of civil liberties afforded by the Constitution.

PAX
Todd

Safety in numbers. I see. Since when was truth and reality a democratic process?

I am really sick of the assumption that just because I don't want your religious ideas taught in the public schools, or don't feel the need to publicize my religious beliefs and force them upon others, I am an atheist and/or going to hell.

Could it just possibly be that I don't think religion has a place in public education?

Or that I think the increasingly limited classroom time could be better spent on basics like math, reading, spelling, history etc. rather than teaching drivel like creationism.

Or that I am rational enough to realize that not everyone shares the same religious views and don't think it is fair to impose your beliefs on others? News Flash - I don't attend your church - and neither do 100% of the students attending and 100% of the taxpayers funding the schools in question.

Or maybe I find your particular brand of Christianity so ignorant and contrary to the actual teachings of Christ that I don't even want to read your posts, let alone have our children taught those screwed up ideas in school.

Deleted - I talk too much sometimes - I'll quit!

Deleted - I'm gone!

One thing is for certain - I should have never offered the reply that caused this thread to start in the first place.

Nor should I keep returning to it.

I am really sick of the assumption that just because I don't want your religious ideas taught in the public schools, or don't feel the need to publicize my religious beliefs and force them upon others, I am an atheist and/or going to hell.

Could it just possibly be that I don't think religion has a place in public education?

Or that I think the increasingly limited classroom time could be better spent on basics like math, reading, spelling, history etc. rather than teaching drivel like creationism.

Or that I am rational enough to realize that not everyone shares the same religious views and don't think it is fair to impose your beliefs on others? News Flash - I don't attend your church - and neither do 100% of the students attending and 100% of the taxpayers funding the schools in question.

Or maybe I find your particular brand of Christianity so ignorant and contrary to the actual teachings of Christ that I don't even want to read your posts, let alone have our children taught those screwed up ideas in school.

If this is directed at me, you SHOULD read my posts, as I NEVER endorsed nor do I believe in organized prayer during school hours or forced state theology in public school.

As far as my brand of Christianity, its Catholic, and I don't recall attempting to usurp any of Christ's teachings. I was talking about the first amentment until someone brought up the parable of the lost sheep. I thought one of the learned agnostics confused the parable with the significance of the "black sheep". I assure you I was already corrected on that point.

I gave no homily.

I am still against state enforced prayer, AND gag orders AGAINST it in public (AND limited public) forums.

Peace
Todd

Safety in numbers. I see. Since when was truth and reality a democratic process?

Lucifer,

We could do theology and agnosticism and even satanism all day. The subject was school prayer. Yes I got off course when the parable was brought up, but I assure you I respect your right to have no faith. I'm sorry if I offended you.

YES! I DO have the nerve to be shocked. I would have expected just as many, if not more, people of faith to respond to this thread as those with no faith. I'm sorry that my being shocked offends you, as well. I am not used to being in the company of so many learned atheists and agnostics.

That being said and all apologies....it does seem that hostility is what any mention of religion meets when it meets agnosticism. My best friend from my childhood is an agnostic, and we can't even discuss it. He goes into a rage. And of course here, on this thread, its obvious that mentioning religion upsets some of you.

Peace
Todd

you are exposing your true nature now, as you are all over the map. comparing an agnostic to a criminal. yes, god loves all the"lost" sheep. that's why he has hell at the ready in case they don't embrace his "love". how could you possibly be shocked to find people who think for themselves? you just can't keep the bible in the holster, so it must permeate every aspect of your existence to the point of pushing it on others. that is the essence of our debate here. religion of any type has no place in public education.

The Christian theology of hell and the choice of rejecting God's love is a 40 hour seminar.....

I am really sick of the assumption that just because I don't want your religious ideas taught in the public schools, or don't feel the need to publicize my religious beliefs and force them upon others, I am an atheist and/or going to hell.

Could it just possibly be that I don't think religion has a place in public education?

Or that I think the increasingly limited classroom time could be better spent on basics like math, reading, spelling, history etc. rather than teaching drivel like creationism.

Or that I am rational enough to realize that not everyone shares the same religious views and don't think it is fair to impose your beliefs on others? News Flash - I don't attend your church - and neither do 100% of the students attending and 100% of the taxpayers funding the schools in question.

Or maybe I find your particular brand of Christianity so ignorant and contrary to the actual teachings of Christ that I don't even want to read your posts, let alone have our children taught those screwed up ideas in school.

Pushing the Thanks button on this post isn't sufficient. Scooter, this is an absolutely brilliant post and reminds believers and nonbelievers what the debate is really about- religion in schools!



Bravo.

and to further set the record straight:

not all "people of faith" believe the same thing;

I agree.

not all "people of faith" want to see religion in the public school system;

True.

and,

not all "people of faith" try to convert others to their way of thinking or believing.

Not all of them. But as the sheep parable presented here nicely illustrates-there is prevalant thought that nonbelievers are little lambs astray and need to be brought back to the flock.

how about we have a little tolerance and acceptance.

The data I have seen indicates that 16% of the US population consider themselves atheists, agnostics or identify themselves as not being followers of any religion. One post on this thread said worldwide that this number is a mere 5%.

Don't these numbers alone support the argument that there is already plenty of tolerance and acceptance for people of faith?

I would like to see more tolerance and acceptance for people who call BS on religion.

I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they want...or not.
I only ask for the same respect in return...

I cetainly respect you as a person and a Sowaller irrespective of your beliefs (or lack thereof). Hopefully, disagreement and debate here isn't perceived as disrespect.

Now, as to the topic on the board:
I don't want public school officials teaching religious conversion any more than I want the ministers teaching English and math!

Nicely said. Agreed.

Lucifer,

We could do theology and agnosticism and even satanism all day. The subject was school prayer. Yes I got off course when the parable was brought up, but I assure you I respect your right to have no faith. I'm sorry if I offended you.

YES! I DO have the nerve to be shocked. I would have expected just as many, if not more, people of faith to respond to this thread as those with no faith. I'm sorry that my being shocked offends you, as well. I am not used to being in the company of so many learned atheists and agnostics.

That being said and all apologies....it does seem that hostility is what any mention of religion meets when it meets agnosticism. My best friend from my childhood is an agnostic, and we can't even discuss it. He goes into a rage. And of course here, on this thread, its obvious that mentioning religion upsets some of you.

Peace
Todd

What's upsetting is the authoritarian stance that [some] believers take towards non-believers. This is the same stance they use to try to justify prayer in school.

What's upsetting is the authoritarian stance that believers take towards non-believers. This is the same stance they use to try to justify prayer in school.

OK, who wants prayer in public school? I don't. What believers are you speaking of? What religion in the United States does not believe or support secular government (Government without an official religion)? If we're talking about far right folks like Pat Robertson and that guy who says "God hates such and such"....they don't represent my faith. No one that would cast the first stone in judgement does.

Those people are allowed their beliefs and freedom of speech, but they certainly don't represent me or any other Christian I know. They are condemning of those different than them....much like fundamentalists our armed forces are seeking in the caves of Afghanistan.

OK, who wants prayer in public school? I don't. What believers are you speaking of? What religion in the United States does not believe or support secular government (Government without an official religion)? If we're talking about far right folks like Pat Robertson and that guy who says "God hates such and such"....they don't represent my faith. No one that would cast the first stone in judgement does.

Those people are allowed their beliefs and freedom of speech, but they certainly don't represent me or any other Christian I know. They are condemning of those different than them....much like fundamentalists our armed forces are seeking in the caves of Afghanistan.

Who wants prayer in school you ask?? I think it would be safe to say that a significant number of people in Walton County would be in favor of it according to some of the posts on this thread.

The Christian theology of hell and the choice of rejecting God's love is a 40 hour seminar.....

if it made any sense whatsoever you could explain the carrot and stick rationale quite easily.

if it made any sense whatsoever you could explain the carrot and stick rationale quite easily.

That killed it! .......

That killed it! .......

did it go to heaven?

Who wants prayer in school you ask?? I think it would be safe to say that a significant number of people in Walton County would be in favor of it according to some of the posts on this thread.

The point is, as well made by many during this thread, not whether prayer should be allowed in school but whether it should be mandatory or publicly led. Succinctly, it should be allowed. It should not be forced or led. One caveat. It may be led with all participants agreeing to such. What is it some of you find so hard to understand regarding our Constitution and its amendments?

Time and a place for everything, Andy. The Constutution and its amendments do not give kids the right to pray, talk or be armed at/during school.

Teacher: "Johnny, can you pls be quiet during class."

Student: "Miss Crabtree, what is it you find so hard to understand regarding our Constitution and its amendments?

The point is, as well made by many during this thread, not whether prayer should be allowed in school but whether it should be mandatory or publicly led. Succinctly, it should be allowed. It should not be forced or led. One caveat. It may be led with all participants agreeing to such. What is it some of you find so hard to understand regarding our Constitution and its amendments?

i know exactly what You're saying. And I'm saying that I think a significant number of Walton County residents would like to see a return to the so-called "good ole days" in which school prayer is mandatory.

Time and a place for everything, Andy. The Constutution and its amendments do not give kids the right to pray, talk or be armed at/during school.

Teacher: "Johnny, can you pls be quiet during class."

Student: "Miss Crabtree, what is it you find so hard to understand regarding our Constitution and its amendments?

Obviously Johnny is smarter than some.

johnny will pray during science class

i know exactly what You're saying. And I'm saying that I think a significant number of Walton County residents would like to see a return to the so-called "good ole days" in which school prayer is mandatory.

Which was exactly my point at the beginning of this thread. I don't think many folks realize that this board only represents a very small slice of Walton County residents and voters.

However, we have a lot of lurkers, usually hanging around to see which subject will lead to the next