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woodworker

Beach Lover
Jan 26, 2008
156
32
SRB
You're arguments lead me to believe ignorance is a religion and you're a high priest.

Ahhh....fresh horses.

O.K.-First off, I'm not here to convert anybody, let's be clear on that! But I do believe that having "no religion" is a cop-out. Having a belief in one entity or another has been the norm for thousands of years. Suddenly, all you "learned" folks want to wipe religion out, starting with the children, which is how any new way of thought is accomplished. May take a generation or two.

Since we're getting way off topic here (religion in schools), let me try to package my point and present it to you.....

It would probably best at this point to keep all religion out of the schools, for your sakes, even though some of the larger universities, not to mention america, was built based on religion.

But - all religion must be kept out! This includes evolution, etc. Any historic belief that can't be obviously proven be an unbiased majority (past or present). Keep any "ideas" or "psychologies" out of the curriculum. Keep it to literacy, problem solving, and skill building. Don't even mention religious choice in school.

That way we can all raise our children based on our personal beliefs or religions, or let them have free rein if that's how you want to raise them.

If you're going to teach "millions and billions of years ago" in school, that is religion-and it undermines the teaching of our "family" religions at the home.
 

beachmouse

Beach Fanatic
Dec 5, 2004
3,504
741
Bluewater Bay, FL
Isn't "not immersed in religion" a religion in itself? Isn't evolution a religion (man is his own god)? Isn't big bang a religion? I mean, come on, everything had to come from "something". Put a rock and a stick in a box and bury it - come back 50 years later - guess what's in there - same rock and stick!

If you are from a Christian denomination that sees the bible as symbolic instead of literal (Roman Catholic, many Orthodox churchs, multiple mainstream Protestant churches) there's nothing incompatible about God and evolution. Instead evolution is the tool that God used to shape the universe in a way that was interesting to Him.

My Catholic school science classes covered evolution at several different grade levels.
 

ShallowsNole

Beach Fanatic
Jun 22, 2005
4,292
849
Pt Washington
arse whoopin? i guess that teaches respect of force, and keeps alive a family tradition.

It taught me that when my parents said jump, they meant JUMP. Not later, not after negotiating it, NOW.

"Time Out" and loss of privileges was useless in 1960's Walton County, as there was nothing to do and you had no privileges anyway.

As for kids that are taught to question authority...that just makes me sad.
 

Geo

Beach Fanatic
Dec 24, 2006
2,750
2,782
Santa Rosa Beach, FL
It taught me that when my parents said jump, they meant JUMP. Not later, not after negotiating it, NOW.

"Time Out" and loss of privileges was useless in 1960's Walton County, as there was nothing to do and you had no privileges anyway.

As for kids that are taught to question authority...that just makes me sad.

I'm really torn on this one. I was raised to JUMP. We refrained from spanking our son and used "time outs" and the other more PC methods. I really don't think they work and I have to ask our son 10 times to do just about anything. Everything is a discussion, debate and negotiation and I must admit I am fed up with where we are.
 

woodworker

Beach Lover
Jan 26, 2008
156
32
SRB
Woodworker, you said I don't have a clue what I am talking about. This bothered me initially because I put a lot of effort into my exchange of ideas here and believe it or not I do care what people think of me.

But after reading your last few posts, let's just say I am no longer bothered.

In my opinion, you shouldn't care so much about what people think of you. I constantly get accused of not knowing what I'm talking about, and it doesn't faze me or my beliefs- not one bit. You're beliefs are not going to be accepted by everyone in this world, so you better be thick skinned, unless you're just going to surround yourself with like minded people (like the modern church has done).

I guess what I was getting at is- research is a fact-finding quest that never ends throughout one's life, so choosing to throw your hands in the air and believing nothing is the end of research. Plus talking about gods or devils that you really haven't researched thoroughly is just silly. If you think the Bible is a fairy tale, then go on your quest to research it and prove it wrong. Don't rely on a Hollywood movie or spoon fed beliefs to base your religion on.

This debate could go on forever (as it always has), although in ancient times, people had proof (eyewitness) of God and they chose to either follow Him or rebel against Him. A little more cut and dried. Now it's total confusion.

I'd love to keep this up, even though it's gotten way off topic, but I have to get to work. I'll check this thread later - or better yet feel free to PM me. Be warned though-I'm from St. Louis too, so that "show me" mentality is coming into play! (I think we're both hard heads.):lol:

Again to summarize - If you take God out of schools, then take evolution out also. Let's teach our own children in the home.
 

woodworker

Beach Lover
Jan 26, 2008
156
32
SRB
If you are from a Christian denomination that sees the bible as symbolic instead of literal (Roman Catholic, many Orthodox churchs, multiple mainstream Protestant churches) there's nothing incompatible about God and evolution. Instead evolution is the tool that God used to shape the universe in a way that was interesting to Him.

My Catholic school science classes covered evolution at several different grade levels.



First of all, I'm not a part of any Christian denomination. I believe the Bible is totally and completely literal. The church has turned into separate groups of people and beliefs - totally off base from Christ's original church that was set up in the Acts of the Apostles.

Maybe the catholic bible is different, but I don't find one shred of evidence of evolution in my Bible. I believe that thinking is called gap theory.

Just because a catholic school (or any religious school) teaches a thought, doesn't make it God's words. It's up to the individual to test the teaching against God's word, and most importantly without adding to or taking away from it.

Believe me, you can research Genesis for years and still find new and relevant information. Do your research according to the language spoken during the era - the words of the ancients had different, sometimes much more elaborate meanings than the same form of the word we use today.

But let's not get into the different bible debate, we've got our hands full at this point!

Also, if you think God created the universe to make it "interesting" to Himself, then I think you've missed something in your studies.

I'd love to do this all day, but unfortunately I haven't found a way to get a paycheck out of it, so I gotta get to work. I'll check back as often as I can.
 

woodworker

Beach Lover
Jan 26, 2008
156
32
SRB
I'm really torn on this one. I was raised to JUMP. We refrained from spanking our son and used "time outs" and the other more PC methods. I really don't think they work and I have to ask our son 10 times to do just about anything. Everything is a discussion, debate and negotiation and I must admit I am fed up with where we are.


Spare the rod, spoil the child.....so go get yourself a rod!

Just kidding!






I'm gone-
 

GoodWitch58

Beach Fanatic
Oct 10, 2005
4,816
1,921
ShallowsNole;536364 As for kids that are taught to question authority...that just makes me sad. [/QUOTE said:
SN:
At the risk of getting "blasted" again, I am going to respond. I really thought your ideas before were interesting and I wanted to explore them. But, I did not want to argue about converting anyone to any certain religious belief.

So, can we explore the idea of authority without anyone thinking I am doing more than just sharing my opinion and looking for others' opinions, please.

If children are not taught to question...how do they learn to think for themselves? Holding a position of authority does not automatically make someone correct on every issue...if we do not question based on our own critical thinking, then we are simply following along without examining the beliefs, the orders, the doctrine, whatever it is.

Even a member of the military has the right to question an order if the member believes it to be inappropriate or illegal. Standing on principles and standing up for our rights is part of what makes America different from other places.

And, anyone who has any experience with doctors and hospitals, better learn to question authority...there are too many instances of patients who do not, losing the wrong leg or arm!

Questioning does not necessarily mean ignoring...but it does mean thinking about what you are about to do and examining whether or not that is the proper course to follow for you.

I would prefer to have someone: a child, a co-worker, a friend --think about an issue and discuss it with respect; than just have follow an "authority" figure simply because of the role that person fills.

IMO there is a huge difference in blindly following authority and having no manners, no social skills, no respect for parents, teachers, etc. And, I also believe that to be respected, one must show respect.

I raised my son this way and I had absolutely no difficulty with him; he is a very successful man and I am proud to say, he and his wife are raising their children this way as well and they are well behaved.

Each of them has a mind of their own; they are very capable and smart; and often they have ideas and interpretations that are better than those of the adults in their lives. We do not deny them the respect for their ideas when they are different than ours, we cherish the fact that they think for themselves.

By the same token we do not tolerate inappropriate, rude behavior...but, we seldom see it. I believe this is because the children's opinion's are respected; they are allowed a voice...while they know that parents or grandparents have the last word.


When my son was growing up there were few rules that were not negotiable...those that were, were never breached. We had some heated discussions of course and once in awhile I had to put my foot down, but more often than not, we were able to work through the differences in a civil way...regardless of whether he was 5 or 15.

He attended a school that encouraged critical thinking and discussion. His opinion was respected in the classroom and on the playground, by both the faculty and his peers. He returned the respect because he had been taught by his parents and his teachers that was the appropriate way.

I am convinced that the respect he was shown as an individual made all the difference. Today, he is confident to offer different ideas in all kinds of situations; is competent in who he is and the work he does both professionally and as a father; and he questions people all the time. He has expanded his knowledge and areas of interest because of his critical examination of what he is told.

On the other hand, I work with people every day who have been taught that they can not question...that they must do something "because the professor said this or that" As a result, they are scared to death to ask questions...they are lacking in self confidence and they are not achieving anywhere near their potential.

I see that all change when they learn that their opinion is valid; they can question, and they can be respected for having a different opinion. I think we all benefit when everyone is respected for the person he or she is; as parents and teachers we must teach social skills and appropriate behavior, but surely that does not mean blindly following...and never questioning authority.

Does it?
 
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