Religion in schools

johnny will pray during science class

And get his arse beat when he gets home for talking back to his teacher.

Time and a place for everything, Andy. The Constutution and its amendments do not give kids the right to pray, talk or be armed at/during school.

Teacher: "Johnny, can you pls be quiet during class."

Student: "Miss Crabtree, what is it you find so hard to understand regarding our Constitution and its amendments?

Are you sure about that?

Are you sure about that?

Yes.

Send your kid to school with a gun and have him talk and pray during class. He will be sent home for disrupting class. You can then file suit. Eventually, after two or three judgements you might make it to the supreme court who will rule that by requiring your child to leave his firearm at home and not talk/pray during class, the teacher and school did not infinge about his constitutional rights.

Anyone else have a different opinion?

Which was exactly my point at the beginning of this thread. I don't think many folks realize that this board only represents a very small slice of Walton County residents and voters.

However, we have a lot of lurkers, usually hanging around to see which subject will lead to the next

Oh I know, and I'm also saying it's not a good thing that they want mandatory prayer and it is cause for alarm. Apparently some people think that [their desire to impose] their god trumps not only constitutional rights but human decency and common courtesy as well simply because they feel the are in the majority. Shame on them!

Yes.

Send your kid to school with a gun and have him talk and pray during class. He will be sent home for disrupting class. You can then file suit. Eventually, after two or three judgements you might make it to the supreme court who will rule that by requiring your child to leave his firearm at home and not talk during class, the teacher and school did not infinge about his constitutional rights.

Anyone else have a different opinion?

I believe you just sidestepped what I was asking you. I was referring to the area in bold, not the gun part.

I think a "vast majority" of parents don't give their children guns to take to school with them, and most kids talk during class at some point.

What if twenty kids are talking during class, all at the same time, but one is praying - are we to send home the one that was praying?

Your case is really falling apart here - I think you'll be fighting with yourself before long. You and your "two buddies", that is.

I believe you just sidestepped what I was asking you. I was referring to the area in bold, not the gun part.

I think a "vast majority" of parents don't give their children guns to take to school with them, and most kids talk during class at some point.

What if twenty kids are talking during class, all at the same time, but one is praying - are we to send home the one that was praying?

Your case is really falling apart here - I think you'll be fighting with yourself before long. You and your "two buddies", that is.

My case is falling apart?
Maybe *you* might think so. I am very comfortable with the argument I am making. If I wasn't I would have said so and would have changed my mind...

I didn't sidestep you, Woodworker. It wasn't clear to me what you were asking.

Do you not see that the gun part was put in there to not only make but exaggerate the following counterpoint to the folks citing the Constitution-

Just because the right to do something is mentioned in a constitutional amendment doesn't mean it makes sense for/that kids have the right to do that something in school.

But just this once as a courtesy to you I'll go ahead and take it out. It doesn't change my point or its strength so here you go-

The Constutution and its amendments (freedom of speech, freedom of religion) do not give kids the right to talk or pray at/during school.

Cheers, Geo

P.S. You would be well served to not make a habit of removing important portions of people's posts and then challenging them on what's left. Many of us choose our words carefully.

I think there is a place, especially in university for education related to religion, especially religious history. I took courses at FSU on religious history and found them to be quite educational.

I don't have any problem with teaching religious history or even the different religions of the world in school. As long as it is a full and complete curriculum. The problem is that in this area it would most likely be centered on Christian teachings and beliefs and perhaps a one day crash course in everything else. When I was in high school we had a religious studies course that was to include all of the religions of the world and the above is exactly what happened. When I complained I was told that I should be a good christian and focus on that. When I explained that I was not a christian, rather a Unitarian Universalist, I was looked at with a blank stare and labeled a "complainer". We then studied "everybody else" on the last day. In this "fair and balanced" situation we were told that each religion was to be studied based on it's over all presence in the world. According to the math used in this presentation 99% of the world is christian and the remaining is made up of Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, and (I'm not kidding) "Others".

Based on the graph below I think we were being mislead.

Geo -

Before you kick me in the head about that last remark (probably already have, seeing as I type too slow), let me tell you a story......


There's a nice quiet town in the south that borders the Gulf of Mexico. Most of the residents kind of keep to themselves; they're from different walks of life, a little spread out, and don't really want to infringe on the original folks that have lived there awhile. North of this town, there's a lot of folks that used to live by the water, but they're not that enamored with it anymore (you'll understand that some day), and besides- it got expensive. So they moved north a ways in search of a more close-knit, family oriented lifestyle.

Eventually, that quiet little town got pretty popular, and started needing schools and such. Well, those residents from the north, along with their southern neighbors, decided to put some of their tax money towards the infrastructure of that new found town. Schools were built, beaches were maintained, roads were paved, police and fire departments were provided, and so on.

As time "progressed", that little town got a little ahead of itself and things started changing. Suddenly, those original "community builders" were faced with some problems that they had never foreseen happening to that quite little town. Land got re-subdivided, residents started feeling the "crunch" of diversity - there were even a few new folks wanting to take prayer out of schools that they built. And this might even effect some of the schools that those folks up north (town builders) built for themselves. Of course, this didn't set well with a lot of those original folks, seeing as they continue to pay for those schools.........


I think this has been mentioned before.

I gotta take some speed-typing lessons!

Geo -

Before you kick me in the head about that last remark (probably already have, seeing as I type too slow), let me tell you a story......


There's a nice quiet town in the south that borders the Gulf of Mexico. Most of the residents kind of keep to themselves; they're from different walks of life, a little spread out, and don't really want to infringe on the original folks that have lived there awhile. North of this town, there's a lot of folks that used to live by the water, but they're not that enamored with it anymore (you'll understand that some day), and besides- it got expensive. So they moved north a ways in search of a more close-knit, family oriented lifestyle.

Eventually, that quiet little town got pretty popular, and started needing schools and such. Well, those residents from the north, along with their southern neighbors, decided to put some of their tax money towards the infrastructure of that new found town. Schools were built, beaches were maintained, roads were paved, police and fire departments were provided, and so on.

As time "progressed", that little town got a little ahead of itself and things started changing. Suddenly, those original "community builders" were faced with some problems that they had never foreseen happening to that quite little town. Land got re-subdivided, residents started feeling the "crunch" of diversity - there were even a few new folks wanting to take prayer out of schools that they built. And this might even effect some of the schools that those folks up north (town builders) built for themselves. Of course, this didn't set well with a lot of those original folks, seeing as they continue to pay for those schools.........


I think this has been mentioned before.

So to summarize, we be's ignant and we likes it that way?

So to summarize, we be's ignant and we likes it that way?

That's one way to interpret but let's give Woodworker a chance.

Woodworker, please summarize what I should get from the story you just told me. Right now I am getting-

"Some of us created a community with a specific vision. This vision included prayer in public schools. But now the town has grown and with that growth has come diversity and liberal ideas which we don't necessarily like- one of which is that prayer in public school is a bad thing."

Is that the gist?

So to summarize, we be's ignant and we likes it that way?

Oops - bad move!

I don't think that attitude is gonna go over very well around here.

Oops - bad move!

I don't think that attitude is gonna go over very well around here.

I could have gone with the other assumption from your post which is that whoever is here first gets to pick the religion. If you follow that logic then we should all be living in Teepee's and worshiping the Eagle God.

That's one way to interpret but let's give Woodworker a chance.

Woodworker, please summarize what I should get from the story you just told me. Right now I am getting-

"Some of us created a community with a specific vision. This vision included prayer in public schools. But now the town has grown and with that growth has come diversity and liberal ideas which we don't necessarily like- one of which is that prayer in public school is a bad thing."

Is that the gist?

Boy, I'm getting wore out, I'll tell ya that!

I wouldn't say "vision" as much as I would say "tradition" or "way of life".
And prayer was a pretty "liberal idea" to begin with. Maybe you're just wanting to replace some peoples liberal idea with your liberal idea?

What you get out of the story is up to you. I was hoping you would get- "well, there's other people in the world (who were living a certain way for a long time before I got here), and I guess I could learn to respect some of their traditions that might be important to them".


I guess you're becoming something of the "atheist missionary".

Boy, I'm getting wore out, I'll tell ya that!

I wouldn't say "vision" as much as I would say "tradition" or "way of life".
And prayer was a pretty "liberal idea" to begin with. Maybe you're just wanting to replace some peoples liberal idea with your liberal idea?

What you get out of the story is up to you. I was hoping you would get- "well, there's other people in the world (who were living a certain way for a long time before I got here), and I guess I could learn to respect some of their traditions that might be important to them".


I guess you're becoming something of the "atheist missionary".

If I could thank your post I would. I totally get where you're coming from on this.

If I could thank your post I would. I totally get where you're coming from on this.

I'm glad somebody is! Thanks.

Boy, I'm getting wore out, I'll tell ya that!

I wouldn't say "vision" as much as I would say "tradition" or "way of life".
And prayer was a pretty "liberal idea" to begin with. Maybe you're just wanting to replace some peoples liberal idea with your liberal idea?

What you get out of the story is up to you. I was hoping you would get- "well, there's other people in the world (who were living a certain way for a long time before I got here), and I guess I could learn to respect some of their traditions that might be important to them".


I guess you're becoming something of the "atheist missionary".

Missionary?? Yeah, that's the position Christians expect non-believer school children to lay back and assume.

Missionary?? Yeah, that's the position Christians expect non-believer school children to lay back and assume.

.....

this subject is very old and tired. surely no one really wants religion to be part of school, unless the school happens to be a religious school? or unless it is a history or social studies class examining cultures and beliefs, customs and religion? international studies are truly important and religions of the world must be covered. but when it comes to a child or family's personal religion - surely this is a private matter. yes, we used to have an occasional prayer at school at an occasional ceremony. and yes, we have made some changes in how we observe religious holidays, etc. folks need to remember that we have come far, made changes and great strides in recognizing the rights of all as far as race and religion. may we continue to do the right thing and respect every child and family participating in school and any public setting. may we see our schools focus their attention on providing best possible educational environments for all children. and may children and families always pursue their religious, spiritual, and cultural lives, appreciating the freedom they have to do so here in America. appreciating that we have the freedom to worship, in the manner we choose, or the freedom from religion. amen!

Personally, I believe God will always be in school. its the nature of children to talk about and share their spritual beliefs and so in a way God will always come to school. surely children can and should be encouraged to share their beliefs and cultures just as they always have. surely teachers can encourage children to ask and answer their own questions. a great opportunity to learn that there are many other ways in this world other than your own. and to learn to respect those other ways. I think that many of us, particularly in the south, are still trying to learn this lesson about seeking to know and understand the culture of others. so, God is there in lots of forms. but maybe the lesson we need to teach is respect of others. looking back, I find it amazing we have to have these lessons legislated, but that's the way it goes.

*edit*

I'm praying this thread will die.......

How about if everyone quits talking about it and ask God that if he does exist, could he please show up in school and make it a better place. That way no body's pushing anything on anyone. No use sitting around praying for things to get better, ask God to do it and then go ahead and start doing your part.

Bottom line. With no compelling State interest (protection of persons or property) speech should not be infringed upon in public forums.

Vocal classroom prayer would be disruptive to the educational process. Besides, not everyone in the class is going to be of the same religious background now a days.

My child goes to Catholic school because thats where I want him to be. They ahve a morning prayer and Mass on Friday mornings.....

Doesn't the US House and Senate have opening prayer and employ Chaplains? I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure not all memebers of Congress are Christian. .....I wonder if they have Rabbi's and Imans as well.....? This would be consistant with the military. They employ Chaplains of all faiths.

How about the fact that our President used, not one, but TWO Christian pastors to provide prayer at his inauguration? Was he entitled to this as a Christian President?

PAX ET BONUM
Todd

How about if everyone quits talking about it and ask God that if he does exist, could he please show up in school and make it a better place. That way no body's pushing anything on anyone. No use sitting around praying for things to get better, ask God to do it and then go ahead and start doing your part.

:roll: Well that was easy. Why didn't you suggest that before?





Here goes....






Ready?.......







ABRACADABRA!!!!!!!!!

Is He there?

Boy, I'm getting wore out, I'll tell ya that!

I wouldn't say "vision" as much as I would say "tradition" or "way of life".
And prayer was a pretty "liberal idea" to begin with. Maybe you're just wanting to replace some peoples liberal idea with your liberal idea?

What you get out of the story is up to you. I was hoping you would get- "well, there's other people in the world (who were living a certain way for a long time before I got here), and I guess I could learn to respect some of their traditions that might be important to them".


I guess you're becoming something of the "atheist missionary".

There were many "traditions" in this country like equal but separate laws for blacks, slavery, denying property ownership and voting rights for women, pulling children out of school and working them in dangerous jobs in factories to support the family, burning witches, slaughtering Native Americans and taking their land, public hangings, etc. You know, the good ole days.