Religion in schools

There were many "traditions" in this country like equal but separate laws for blacks, slavery, denying property ownership and voting rights for women, pulling children out of school and working them in dangerous jobs in factories to support the family, burning witches, slaughtering Native Americans and taking their land, public hangings, etc. You know, the good ole days.

Wow - I think you just revealed some dangers of replacing God with evolution in our schools (and society). Thanks, that helps a lot!

Here's a link for some further research -

The Darwinian foundation of communism

That may clear up some things about slavery, women's rights, slaughtering Native Americans and such. These weren't promoted by my God!

Also, did you know that the original title of "On the Origin of Species" was -

"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" - the book didn't change, just the title.;-)

May want to look into the Communist Rules for Revolution sometime too. False? - You be the judge. The Communist Manifesto is fun reading too. Some of these folks were Darwin's buddies -

I gotta say, this removal of God and push evolution (science?) debate is getting easier by the day!

Warning - Don't look unless you want to risk getting a little stomach ache.

(I get the feeling I've been "marked for removal").

Boy, I'm getting wore out, I'll tell ya that!

I wouldn't say "vision" as much as I would say "tradition" or "way of life".
And prayer was a pretty "liberal idea" to begin with. Maybe you're just wanting to replace some peoples liberal idea with your liberal idea?

What you get out of the story is up to you. I was hoping you would get- "well, there's other people in the world (who were living a certain way for a long time before I got here), and I guess I could learn to respect some of their traditions that might be important to them".


I guess you're becoming something of the "atheist missionary".

Well, members of my family have been living here since the late 1800s and I don't know of any who wanted to have religion a part of the school system...and that has nothing to do with whether or not we are believers. So, your statement does not speak for all of us who have been here for awhile.

It is now obvious to me that SN was right: some people are only interested in continuing whatever it is they believe in, and not opening up their minds to other ways of thinking or being; and some want all of us to believe the same way they do.

That is fine (although I believe we all benefit from more open mindedness and curiousity about others), as long as they are not trying to convert others through the public school system; and not integrating religious belief into a school policy where the school children are "captive audiences" to the system.

"To be one, to be united is a great thing.
But to respect the right to be different is maybe even greater".

Bono

Wow - I think you just revealed some dangers of replacing God with evolution in our schools (and society). Thanks, that helps a lot!

Here's a link for some further research -

The Darwinian foundation of communism

That may clear up some things about slavery, women's rights, slaughtering Native Americans and such. These weren't promoted by my God!

Also, did you know that the original title of "On the Origin of Species" was -

"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" - the book didn't change, just the title.;-)

May want to look into the Communist Rules for Revolution sometime too. False? - You be the judge. The Communist Manifesto is fun reading too. Some of these folks were Darwin's buddies -

I gotta say, this removal of God and push evolution (science?) debate is getting easier by the day!

Warning - Don't look unless you want to risk getting a little stomach ache.

(I get the feeling I've been "marked for removal").

Natural selection favors the classes or races of organism most fit for survival. What poppy is referring to are atrocities against humans resulting from artificial selection. Historically the justification for this has been ideological. The vast majority of evolution and natural selection occurred with non-human organisms where ideological and philosophical notions are non-existent. So there goes your argument for some sort of philosophical connection for the theory of evolution. Humans played a relatively small part in the evolution of the species. You really need at the very least read up on the theory so that you have at least some clue as to what you disagree with. It appears that right now you are simply arguing against your own strawmen.

Well, members of my family have been living here since the late 1800s and I don't know of any who wanted to have religion a part of the school system...and that has nothing to do with whether or not we are believers. So, your statement does not speak for all of us who have been here for awhile.

It is now obvious to me that SN was right: some people are only interested in continuing whatever it is they believe in, and not opening up their minds to other ways of thinking or being; and some want all of us to believe the same way they do.

That is fine (although I believe we all benefit from more open mindedness and curiousity about others), as long as they are not trying to convert others through the public school system; and not integrating religious belief into a school policy where the school children are "captive audiences" to the system.

"To be one, to be united is a great thing.
But to respect the right to be different is maybe even greater".

Bono

You said it! (see bold above). But remember, you heard it from me first - .

Do you know from members of your family if any of them were "bothered" by religion being a part of school?

Or if they went on a "personal quest" to remove it?

Wow - I think you just revealed some dangers of replacing God with evolution in our schools (and society). Thanks, that helps a lot!

Here's a link for some further research -

The Darwinian foundation of communism

That may clear up some things about slavery, women's rights, slaughtering Native Americans and such. These weren't promoted by my God!

Also, did you know that the original title of "On the Origin of Species" was -

"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" - the book didn't change, just the title.;-)

May want to look into the Communist Rules for Revolution sometime too. False? - You be the judge. The Communist Manifesto is fun reading too. Some of these folks were Darwin's buddies -

I gotta say, this removal of God and push evolution (science?) debate is getting easier by the day!

Warning - Don't look unless you want to risk getting a little stomach ache.

(I get the feeling I've been "marked for removal").

I never implied they were promoted by God. They were promoted by man. they were a "way of life" at one time, you know "traditions". I don't advocate the removal of God and pushing evolution, I advocate teaching science. There is no scientific evidence of the existence of God but that doesn't mean you have to stop believing in him if that brings you peace and comfort. Take advantage of the fact that you live in a country that allows you to freely practice your religion. I am not a threat to your beliefs.

Who gives a damn if some believe Darwin was the foundation for communism. The bible is the foundation for the Westboro Baptist Church, the KKK, and many other white supremists groups. I would never imply you would agree with any of these groups.

"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" is the full title of the book. You are reading too much into the shortened title. Favoured races is not about race relations or trying to wipe out a race as Hitler believed possible.

You said it! (see bold above). But remember, you heard it from me first - .

Do you know from members of your family if any of them were "bothered" by religion being a part of school?

Or if they went on a "personal quest" to remove it?

Woodworker,
I am reading Goodwitch's reply to you as- "you are not speaking for me" on the issue of religion in schools. Or in other words- "I do not agree with you so pls don't lump me in as having the same political belief solely because I am a 'believer' ".

But yet your posts suggest to me that you believe the two of you are in agreement.

Natural selection favors the classes or races of organism most fit for survival. What poppy is referring to are atrocities against humans resulting from artificial selection. Historically the justification for this has been ideological. The vast majority of evolution and natural selection occurred with non-human organisms where ideological and philosophical notions are non-existent. So there goes your argument for some sort of philosophical connection for the theory of evolution. Humans played a relatively small part in the evolution of the species. You really need at the very least read up on the theory so that you have at least some clue as to what you disagree with. It appears that right now you are simply arguing against your own strawmen.

That's not what Darwin thought. Is this what you're trying to say? -

"The concept Darwin had with [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest"]survival of the fittest[/ame] can't be disassociated from [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection"]natural selection[/ame] and artificial selection.....



It should be emphasized that there is no real difference in the genetic processes underlying artificial and natural selection, and that the concept of artificial selection was first introduced by [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin"]Charles Darwin[/ame] as an illustration of the wider process of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection"]natural selection[/ame]. The [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection"]selection[/ame] process is termed "artificial" when human preferences or influences have a significant effect on the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution"]evolution[/ame] of a particular population or species. Indeed, many evolutionary biologists view [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication"]domestication[/ame] as a type of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection"]natural selection[/ame] and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive"]adaptive[/ame] change that occurs as organisms are brought under the control of human beings."

Thats just wikipedia, I didn't look into it too much. I can't imagine what happens when this info gets into a child's brain. Probably bounces around for a while, then shoots out of his ear! Leaves a few dents in there too!




And if the "vast majority of evolution and natural selection occurred with non-human organisms" than why are we more, um, evolved?

From now on, you need to say -

"The vast majority of evolution and natural selection and artificial selection occurred with human organisms."




I mean, we've obviously "bypassed" the monkeys, since we lost our tails and drive cars and build skyscrapers and stuff. And whats the difference between human organisms and non-human organisms? (ask Hitler-he knows;-)) Didn't we all come from the same gene puddle?



I'll admit to ya - this evolution stuff is pretty confusing to me! Especially when people like you try to "help"; then it gets really muddled up!


Maybe you should get some more help from the "experts".

I never implied they were promoted by God. They were promoted by man. they were a "way of life" at one time, you know "traditions". I don't advocate the removal of God and pushing evolution, I advocate teaching science. There is no scientific evidence of the existence of God but that doesn't mean you have to stop believing in him if that brings you peace and comfort. Take advantage of the fact that you live in a country that allows you to freely practice your religion. I am not a threat to your beliefs.

Who gives a damn if some believe Darwin was the foundation for communism. The bible is the foundation for the Westboro Baptist Church, the KKK, and many other white supremists groups. I would never imply you would agree with any of these groups.

"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" is the full title of the book. You are reading too much into the shortened title. Favoured races is not about race relations or trying to wipe out a race as Hitler believed possible.

Funny thing is it would seem that the system of government most similar to Darwinism would be pure capitalism without any government interference. Capitalism is based on individualism, selfishness, and survival of the fittest. The foundations of Christianity would seem least likely to give rise to capitalism since it places so much emphasis on altruism and self-sacrifice. Sounds like socialism to me. As for me I'll take Darwinian capitalism wit a few important caveats any day.

I never implied they were promoted by God. They were promoted by man. they were a "way of life" at one time, you know "traditions". I don't advocate the removal of God and pushing evolution, I advocate teaching science. There is no scientific evidence of the existence of God but that doesn't mean you have to stop believing in him if that brings you peace and comfort. Take advantage of the fact that you live in a country that allows you to freely practice your religion. I am not a threat to your beliefs.

Who gives a damn if some believe Darwin was the foundation for communism. The bible is the foundation for the Westboro Baptist Church, the KKK, and many other white supremists groups. I would never imply you would agree with any of these groups.

"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" is the full title of the book. You are reading too much into the shortened title. Favoured races is not about race relations or trying to wipe out a race as Hitler believed possible.

Correction - the bible and evolution is the foundation (see bold above). AKA terrorism.

And I'm not reading "into" the shortened title (?), I'm "reading the title".
Yes sir, favored races was exactly about race relations at that point in history, and that book was an "explanation of sins", past and future.

I stated pages ago that Hitler thought he was a christian - I guess I should have added more sarcasm. He was an evolutionist.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Funny thing is it would seem that the system of government most similar to Darwinism would be pure capitalism without any government interference. Capitalism is based on individualism, selfishness, and survival of the fittest. The foundations of Christianity would seem least likely to give rise to capitalism since it places so much emphasis on altruism and self-sacrifice. Sounds like socialism to me. As for me I'll take Darwinian capitalism wit a few important caveats any day.

o.k. - you're dismissed.

Don't forget to fill out SWGB's political party survey!

Woodworker,
I am reading Goodwitch's reply to you as- "you are not speaking for me" on the issue of religion in schools. Or in other words- "I do not agree with you so pls don't lump me in as having the same political belief solely because I am a 'believer' ".

But yet your posts suggest to me that you believe the two of you are in agreement.

Thank you Geo. I can not determine if WW is deliberately misunderstanding or really doesn't understand that "you are not speaking for me" and "I do not agree with you" is exactly what I was saying..

I have been consistent from the beginning...but my message hasn't gotten through...

Woodworker,
I am reading Goodwitch's reply to you as- "you are not speaking for me" on the issue of religion in schools. Or in other words- "I do not agree with you so pls don't lump me in as having the same political belief solely because I am a 'believer' ".

But yet your posts suggest to me that you believe the two of you are in agreement.

Wha? Do you mean my reply to Goodwitch, or Goodwitch's reply to me(as you stated)?

I don't remember Goodwitch saying she(assumed) was a "believer".

I think I was just asking if Goodwitch remembered if any of her kin were bothered by prayer in school.

Remember - I'm not an advocate of group prayer during class. If that goes on everyday, I can see where that would make the devil worshipers and such real angry. But, I don't think you can deny a child or valedictorian their right to pray. If a devil worshiper becomes valedictorian, then they can pray to the devil! Probably won't go over very well, though.

That's not what Darwin thought. Is this what you're trying to say? -

"The concept Darwin had with survival of the fittest can't be disassociated from natural selection and artificial selection.....



It should be emphasized that there is no real difference in the genetic processes underlying artificial and natural selection, and that the concept of artificial selection was first introduced by Charles Darwin as an illustration of the wider process of natural selection. The selection process is termed "artificial" when human preferences or influences have a significant effect on the evolution of a particular population or species. Indeed, many evolutionary biologists view domestication as a type of natural selection and adaptive change that occurs as organisms are brought under the control of human beings."

Thats just wikipedia, I didn't look into it too much. I can't imagine what happens when this info gets into a child's brain. Probably bounces around for a while, then shoots out of his ear! Leaves a few dents in there too! "

Artificial selection is a human contrivance that models natural selection as the article implies. The only difference is the fitness crtiteria which is premeditated. Artificial selection is not the basis for natural selction as you have implied. If anything it's the other way around.

And if the "vast majority of evolution and natural selection occurred with non-human organisms" than why are we more, um, evolved?

From now on, you need to say -

"The vast majority of evolution and natural selection and artificial selection occurred with human organisms." "

No, come on think for a second! Think about the incredible amount of mutation and natural selection that occurred just going from the one celled organism to the fruit fly. Think about all the life forms on earth and from a naturalistic point of view we are insignificant. We are at the tail end of the evoulutionary chain.

I mean, we've obviously "bypassed" the monkeys, since we lost our tails and drive cars and build skyscrapers and stuff. And whats the difference between human organisms and non-human organisms? (ask Hitler-he knows;-)) Didn't we all come from the same gene puddle?"

Yep and the monkey obviously bypassed the fruit fly.

I'll admit to ya - this evolution stuff is pretty confusing to me! Especially when people like you try to "help"; then it gets really muddled up!


Maybe you should get some more help from the "experts".

I understand your insecurity. It's time for you to stop hating the messenger and start hating your lack of knowledge.

Thank you Geo. I can not determine if WW is deliberately misunderstanding or really doesn't understand that "you are not speaking for me" and "I do not agree with you" is exactly what I was saying..

I have been consistent from the beginning...but my message hasn't gotten through...

Gotcha (I think?).

I had never assumed you were "in agreement with me". Hint - you're name tipped me off.

I was just asking a question about your kin -

Artificial selection is a human contrivance that models natural selection as the article implies. The only difference is the fitness crtiteria which is premeditated. Artificial selection is not the basis for natural selction as you have implied. If anything it's the other way around.








No, come on think for a second! Think about the incredible amount of mutation and natural selection that occurred just going from the one celled organism to the fruit fly. Think about all the life forms on earth and from a naturalistic point of view we are insignificant. We are at the tail end of the evoulutionary chain.




Yep and the monkey obviously bypassed the fruit fly.




I understand your insecurity. It's time for you to stop hating the messenger and start hating your lack of knowledge.

o.k. - I believe I've (you've) made my point. And, admittedly, I can't fathom the "incredible amount of mutation" part -

I got faith, brother, but it ain't nearly as strong as your faith, if you know what I mean!

Gotcha (I think?).

I had never assumed you were "in agreement with me". Hint - you're name tipped me off.

-

Well, I guess you don't get the literature reference either...

o.k. - I believe I've (you've) made my point. And, admittedly, I can't fathom the "incredible amount of mutation" part -

I got faith, brother, but it ain't nearly as strong as your faith, if you know what I mean!

Really, well can you fathom the incredible amount of incremental change that occurs going from fertilized egg to full blown human, or are you going to deny the fact of human reproduction?

Thank you Geo. I can not determine if WW is deliberately misunderstanding or really doesn't understand that "you are not speaking for me" and "I do not agree with you" is exactly what I was saying..

I have been consistent from the beginning...but my message hasn't gotten through...

GW - your message is perfectly understood by me and most here, whether we agree or we don't. you write very well and with much respect to all. don't get discouraged.

Well, I guess you don't get the literature reference either...

Sorry.... Well, then is it a Wizard of Oz reference?

Guess I didn't think about it much.

Really, well can you fathom the incredible amount of incremental change that occurs going from fertilized egg to full blown human, or are you going to deny the fact of human reproduction?

Nope!

You're the evolutionist, maybe you can explain it. Don't tell me my kid's a mutant, though. I don't think I'll be able to believe that!

(Maybe that's what's wrong with kids these days - they think their mutants!)

GW - your message is perfectly understood by me and most here, whether we agree or we don't. you write very well and with much respect to all. don't get discouraged.

thanks Tootsie. I am not discouraged...just curious -- sometimes feel as though I am writing in a language other than English, though, from some of the responses I get!

Thanks for your post.

Nope!

You're the evolutionist, maybe you can explain it. Don't tell me my kid's a mutant, though. I don't think I'll be able to believe that!

(Maybe that's what's wrong with kids these days - they think their mutants!)

Actually, the word mutate comes from a latin word meaning "to change", so indeed an astronomical number of mutations occur from the time an egg is fertilized until the time a baby is delivered. Is that really so hard to fathom? Let your kid explain it to you. He'll need to get a proper education first. In your family that would make him a mutant.

thanks Tootsie. I am not discouraged...just curious -- sometimes feel as though I am writing in a language other than English, though, from some of the responses I get!

Thanks for your post.

.
YOU are not!..;-)

Actually, the word mutate comes from a latin word meaning "to change", so indeed an astronomical number of mutations occur from the time an egg is fertilized until the time a baby is delivered. Is that really so hard to fathom? Let your kid explain it to you. He'll need to get a proper education first. In your family that would make him a mutant.

.



.

Actually, the word mutate comes from a latin word meaning "to change", so indeed an astronomical number of mutations occur from the time an egg is fertilized until the time a baby is delivered. Is that really so hard to fathom? Let your kid explain it to you. He'll need to get a proper education first. In your family that would make him a mutant.

Since we're on Latin - did you know the Latin meaning for the word "universe" is "single spoken sentence"?

I don't want to give them any tips here, but if baby (fetus/embryo/whatever) cells are constantly mutating or changing, the pro abortion folks could really use that in their debates. I'm not saying you are pro abortion here, don't read me wrong!

Is there a difference between mutating and growing? Do trees and dogs mutate as they grow? Or does mutation stop in the womb? Sorry, it is getting hard to fathom!

And that last part was pretty funny! The "he's" a she, though. Maybe if my wife would have stood on her head and violently kicked her legs during the precise time of a specific mutation, we would've had a boy.

Actually, the word mutate comes from a latin word meaning "to change", so indeed an astronomical number of mutations occur from the time an egg is fertilized until the time a baby is delivered. Is that really so hard to fathom? Let your kid explain it to you. He'll need to get a proper education first. In your family that would make him a mutant.

Wait - I see what you're saying here!

You're saying the cells are mutating or changing. And here I'm thinking the cells are just dividing and thus, multiplying. Yeah, it's at an astronomical rate! So...when do the cells change?

Remember we're talking about a single cell here - of course their not all there at conception. Talk about stretch marks!