The President's Speech

I am glad that the Republican leadership and general public are condemning Wilson.

I was absolutely appalled that the PRESIDENT was giving a nationally televised speech and was HECKLED by a member of congress. Vote his rude ungentlemanly self out!

Why exactly is it so difficult to confirm someone's citizenship? I have a government issued photo ID with a swipe strip and a variety of anti-counterfeiting measures like holograms that I have to use to buy things, travel, enter a government building, use a credit card, and get photocopied for the files whenever I get medical care.

A bank etc. can run my entire credit history in less than 5 minutes, so why can't a doctor's office or hospital confirm someone's citizenship - a rather basic bit of info IMO.

I know. This is baffling. However, those illegal immigrants from MX can easily obtain a Mexican Consular ID. Somehow, it works with employment, banking, etc.

Wow. So a SSN datbase wouldn't help with Mexican citizens. I imagine it is no big deal for others to obtain illegal Mexican Consular ID #'s.

Um, exactly how does an ID issued by another country prove you are a US citizen?

I could see how a foreign passport would allow you to bank, get on a plane, prove your identity, be employed etc.

Can someone explain if this is wrong or inaccurrate:
If you are a US citizen, then you have a SSN and a government issued photo ID.

Um, exactly how does an ID issued by another country prove you are a US citizen?

I could see how a foreign passport would allow you to bank, get on a plane, prove your identity, be employed etc.

Can someone explain if this is wrong or inaccurrate:
If you are a US citizen, then you have a SSN and a government issued photo ID.

A Mexican Consular ID is issued in the US.

I confess -- I didn't watch more than 4 minutes of his speech last night. I did hear Obama say that he was going to confront these misstatements about the health care plan. My question is, how is he going to do that if he hasn't read the bill to know what is true and what is not true? Is he going to learn about the entire bill by reading the cliff notes created by the same people who wrote the bill? No need to answer, as I already know the answer. PolitRics.

How does that work? I really don't understand. If the employer then sends the Social Security Administration a payment for the payroll tax on the employee's behalf, using the fake SSN and the employee's actual name, doesn't someone usually catch it?

It seems like it would be one thing to provide a fake number for off-the-record low wage work in a restaurant kitchen or in the fields. It seems like quite another to become part of a computerized, automated system.

Remember this is the same government that allowed Madoff to operate right under their nose. It took his sons turning him in for him to get caught. When all other government programs are suffering, why add health care into the mix??? Don't be so hard headed and trusting...it will serve you well.

I am glad that the Republican leadership and general public are condemning Wilson.

I was absolutely appalled that the PRESIDENT was giving a nationally televised speech and was HECKLED by a member of congress. Vote his rude ungentlemanly self out!

Why exactly is it so difficult to confirm someone's citizenship? I have a government issued photo ID with a swipe strip and a variety of anti-counterfeiting measures like holograms that I have to use to buy things, travel, enter a government building, use a credit card, and get photocopied for the files whenever I get medical care.

A bank etc. can run my entire credit history in less than 5 minutes, so why can't a doctor's office or hospital confirm someone's citizenship - a rather basic bit of info IMO.

Bank's don't consider verification profiling where as the government does. Illegals wouldn't be voting in our elections if we simply enforced some form of mandatory state authorized identification. We can't even get some sort of law passed in TX...what makes you think a Democrat with significant support from Hispanics will ultimately push for a system that will hurt the party's fastest growing voting base?

regarding health care & illegal immigrants - I think that would be addressed best in immigration reform...

This expresses it well, imo.

Aug 21 2009, 2:54 pm by Derek Thompson
Should Universal Health Care Cover Illegal Immigrants?

In an interview with right-wing radio host Michael Smerconish, President Obama said the health care bills weren't designed to cover illegal immigrants, except perhaps for children and in cases of emergency. Ryan Avent said he was "ashamed" of Obama's answer. James Surowieki of the New Yorker pointed out that most of the European countries whose health care systems we envy don't cover illegal immigrants either.

Here's what Obama told Smerconish:

OBAMA: We don't want a situation in which some child, even if they're an illegal immigrant, shows up in an emergency room with tuberculosis and nobody is giving them treatment, and then they're going back to the playground and playing next to our kids.
So I think there is a basic standard of decency where if somebody is in a death situation or a severe illness, that we're going to provide them emergency care. But nobody has talked about providing health insurance to illegal immigrants. I want to make that absolutely clear.
​

I think that's absolutely spot on. I share Avent's compassion as a matter of abstract morality, but as a matter of politics, and even as a matter of practical virtue, it falls short. Politically it's quite the Washington hari kari to inflame public opinion about health care reform by explaining that the $1 trillion bill is designed to extend coverage to people who are here illegally. The bigger picture is that it would be more shameful if Obama doomed the entire health reform project by planting his foot down and saying, "By God, either 6.1 million illegal immigrant adults get subsidized health care or there will be no health care reform at all!" Let's not pretend we don't know how that would end.

Practically, Surowieki makes an excellent point that if we guaranteed health care to illegal immigrants, we would turn the United States into the world's "health care provider of last resort." Since no other industrialized democracy offers health care for illegal residents, we could be flooded with requests from workers migrating to the States whenever they got sick.

Update: Ryan just responded to Surowieki, and I have to give him credit for this zinger: "First, while there are many things worth emulating about Europe, I'm not sure that attitudes toward immigrants is one of them." Check that!

Again, I'm with Ryan all the way morally. I think every person in America deserves health care. I think it's an issue of morality, of human rights. And immigrants are people, too. But it seems to me that the best way to extend health care to non-citizens isn't to mandate illegal immigrant coverage so that the world's uninsured consider the United States taxpayer their guaranteed provider of care. It seems the better way would be through immigration reform, to create incentives and avenues for illegal immigrants to become full-fledged citizens, pay their taxes, and get their proper GP check-up. But guaranteeing that they'll get coverage whether or not they become citizens-- is that the right incentive?

Remember this is the same government that allowed Madoff to operate right under their nose. It took his sons turning him in for him to get caught. When all other government programs are suffering, why add health care into the mix??? Don't be so hard headed and trusting...it will serve you well.

I'm not sure I ever trusted government entirely; if I did that went away as soon as we realized there were no WMDs in Iraq.

I would THINK, however, that gathering intelligence about covert operations in other countries is SLIGHLY more difficult than, say, quickly and efficiently determining whether someone is using the proper Social Security number. The fact that we don't and the problems that it causes is something that should be addressed, without question.

I read somewhere before Winnie replied to me that one of the things the government does is merrily take those payroll tax dollars for Social Security payouts, fully knowing the SSN numbers are invalid and those people paying into the system will never get their money back out. If true, that's appalling but, also, I'm sure very profitable for the feds. And perhaps a reason that illegal immigration has not been addressed properly?

All of that said, I was very very happy with the president's speech. Like most reasonable people I did wonder whether he really believes he can pull it all off and how it would be paid for, but that being said, I loved his approach.

He spoke up -- for once -- very clearly about what his visions are, and said so many obvious things that even the GOP had to stand and applaud many of his points. Everyone is now back on the hook for getting something done. I liked that many of his central points were pretty darned centrist. I liked that he brought in a valid McCain idea, that he referenced many different ideas (if not committing to them entirely).

He gathered everyone together and laid it all down and will hold Congress accountable, while he made it very clear that the buck stops with him. And he said this on national TV in hopes that the most people would see it. If he doesn't succeed in getting this done, he will look foolish and will not be reelected.

Politically, it was brilliant. Much of the GOP looked uncomfortable because they knew they had been schooled. But in taking this on himself, he also showed actual leadership. We will see. But I think the tone has been reset. Let's hope the silly season is over!

All of that said, I was very very happy with the president's speech. Like most reasonable people I did wonder whether he really believes he can pull it all off and how it would be paid for, but that being said, I loved his approach.

He spoke up -- for once -- very clearly about what his visions are, and said so many obvious things that even the GOP had to stand and applaud many of his points. Everyone is now back on the hook for getting something done. I liked that many of his central points were pretty darned centrist. I liked that he brought in a valid McCain idea, that he referenced many different ideas (if not committing to them entirely).

He gathered everyone together and laid it all down and will hold Congress accountable, while he made it very clear that the buck stops with him. And he said this on national TV in hopes that the most people would see it. If he doesn't succeed in getting this done, he will look foolish and will not be reelected.

Politically, it was brilliant. Much of the GOP looked uncomfortable because they knew they had been schooled. But in taking this on himself, he also showed actual leadership. We will see. But I think the tone has been reset. Let's hope the silly season is over!

Much of the GOP looked uncomfortable because, like me, they expected something new and positive. Not simply a campaign speech for the current House resolutions. But something both sides could get behind.

I thought I heard that the White House has been working on it's own plan since early this summer and President Obama was going to explain it. It didn't sound to me like there is a new plan. The big difference from H.R. 3200 is an insurance exchange to begin in 2013?

The very worst part was his support of the public option. It is already essentially being done on a small scale and not very successfully.

Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan is not for profit, can't deny anyone, and is losing money. Rates are increasing 22% as of Oct. 1 this year and will likely still lose money and ask for another rate hike in January. http://www.freep.com/article/20090906/COL06/909060568/1014/BUSINESS01/Blue-Cross-hits-customers-with-22--rate-hike

That is not different than a government administered plan that is not for profit and can't deny anyone.
If private insurers are also not allowed to deny full coverage to everyone and all the other "new" requirements, they would necessarily have to charge higher rates than the government plan.
Either that or they would have to make better deals with providers than the government does. Since the government makes the rules, providers would have more incentive to give government the most favorable terms.
Viola'! Private insurers out of business and we're left with a single-payer plan. If that's the goal, then maybe "Politically, it was brilliant."

I did like that the Republicans were holding up their proposed alternate plans whenever the President insinuated that there weren't any. :scratch:So, I guess they weren't expecting a conciliatory tone in the speech. I was - I was hoping.
　

I agrere with Winnie on that. It really started out as if he were going to try and break the ice and propose centrist reform moderates could get behind. He didn't though, he just pumped the house bill. There was nothing new in this policy speech we haven't already seen in existing bills. I really don't see how this changes anything.

As for the Liar outburst, this has happened before, most recently when democrats boo'ed Bush and called him a liar at one of his addresses. Typical response is to censure those responsible, but I guess Pelosi shot that down today. I wouldn't have expected her to take the high road, but she did. Kudos to her for that.

I know this sounds simplistic, but why doesn't someone just produce the text from the plan that specifically excludes illegal aliens from using "the public option" or the "exchange"? Wilson's rudeness is one thing, but is he ill-informed as well?

Winnie has it right. The bill can say "these funds will not be used for non-citizens" but if there is nothing in the bill that checks to make sure, it's meaningless. It's also true dems have shot down amendments to address this, which might explain why at least one republican felt the need to voice his opinion when Obama made that statement.

Warning: this comes from the NY Times, so some of you may just want to ignore but I think this sums up the issue well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/opinion/11fri2.html. From the article:

Should we take a harder line? Force people to prove citizenship in emergency rooms? That’s illegal, for good reason. Make verification requirements so onerous that not a single illegal immigrant slips through? Very expensive, and not smart. It would be highly likely to snag deserving citizens — like old people who don’t have their original birth certificates. And besides, we’ve tried that: A House oversight committee reviewed six state Medicaid programs in 2007 and found that verification rules had cost the federal government an additional $8.3 million. They caught exactly eight illegal immigrants.

Warning: this comes from the NY Times, so some of you may just want to ignore but I think this sums up the issue well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/opinion/11fri2.html. From the article:

Should we take a harder line? Force people to prove citizenship in emergency rooms? That?s illegal, for good reason. Make verification requirements so onerous that not a single illegal immigrant slips through? Very expensive, and not smart. It would be highly likely to snag deserving citizens ? like old people who don?t have their original birth certificates. And besides, we?ve tried that: A House oversight committee reviewed six state Medicaid programs in 2007 and found that verification rules had cost the federal government an additional $8.3 million. They caught exactly eight illegal immigrants.

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..Hard to imagine!
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"Hard-line Republicans insist that they will fight for citizenship verification. They could, in theory, get the country to spend whatever it takes to do that and proudly report back to their voters. But there is a line beyond which antipathy to the undocumented can be damaging to those voters? health, not to mention the federal budget. Mr. Wilson and his admirers seem to have crossed it."

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so let me get this right. It's ok for a congressman to heckle the president? As long as he's a dem. If he's a rep who wants to go to war, then if you don't agree you're not a patriot?

and health care does not need reform because it will bankrupt the country?
the republicans are some sore loosers. Your president broke the world and made rich folks richer.

so let me get this right. It's ok for a congressman to heckle the president? As long as he's a dem. If he's a rep who wants to go to war, then if you don't agree you're not a patriot?

and health care does not need reform because it will bankrupt the country?
the republicans are some sore loosers. Your president broke the world and made rich folks richer.

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Matt - this post is confusing .....
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I will admit that I am easily confused sometimes though.

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Matt - this post is confusing .....
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I will admit that I am easily confused sometimes though.

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Rita....I read it three times and it jsut kept getting more confusing. Maybe this poster will come back and untangle it for us.

I was interupted during my post and lost my train of thought.
republicans are sore loosers, and they will keep loosing. morons like hannity, rush, and the others are going to yell their way out of existence.
I do not believe Obama can destroy our country. Bush got close, but obama is not nearly that stupid. Bush spent eight years screwing up our country and the rest of the world. his contribution to the economy included Enron,(long time bush family pals) AIG, the insurance company that could not insure anything, The stock market crash, and of course 3ooo dead americans in military uniforms blown up in some god forsaken desert.
If you hate obama, fine, but not putting some of the blame for all of this on W is just stupid.

Joe Wilson claims Dems are trying to silence him

And I quote:
"On these issues, I will not be muzzled, I will speak up and speak loudly against this risky plan," Wilson said in a YouTube video released Thursday evening. "The supporters of the government takeover of health care and the liberals who want to give health care to illegals are using my opposition as an excuse to distract from the critical questions being raised about this poorly conceived plan." The congressman disbursed the video via Twitter and asked his followers to "please watch and pass on."
"[Democrats] want to silence anyone who speaks out against it," Wilson also says in the video. "They made it clear they want to defeat me and pass the plan. I need your help now… contribute to my effort to defeat the proponents of government-run health care."


No, Rep Wilson, you idiot, we just want you to act like an intelligent, mature human being and not shout at the President during a speech like a hyena.

so let me get this right. It's ok for a congressman to heckle the president? As long as he's a dem. If he's a rep who wants to go to war, then if you don't agree you're not a patriot?

and health care does not need reform because it will bankrupt the country?
the republicans are some sore loosers. Your president broke the world and made rich folks richer.

My President is Barack Obama. My world isn't broken.

I was interupted during my post and lost my train of thought.
republicans are sore loosers, and they will keep loosing. morons like hannity, rush, and the others are going to yell their way out of existence.
I do not believe Obama can destroy our country. Bush got close, but obama is not nearly that stupid. Bush spent eight years screwing up our country and the rest of the world. his contribution to the economy included Enron,(long time bush family pals) AIG, the insurance company that could not insure anything, The stock market crash, and of course 3ooo dead americans in military uniforms blown up in some god forsaken desert.
If you hate obama, fine, but not putting some of the blame for all of this on W is just stupid.

I prefer your earlier post to the later one.

Rita....I read it three times and it jsut kept getting more confusing. Maybe this poster will come back and untangle it for us.

I hope he will also magically sprout some common courtesy.

matt, in case you forgot, Bush did whatever he did with the House and Senate's approval (wasn't it a democratic house and senate? -- I forget all those details....)

Also, like it or not, Bush was your President as much as Obama is because he was elected (supposedly, though some disagree).

Regarding the freshman senator from SC, I see nothing wrong different in his vocal disagreement with the President, than the many interruptions of standing and applauding. It is all partisan politics. One is agreement and one is disagreement, but both are nothing more than showing whose side one is on.

Regarding the particular comment about Obama lying, was the senator wrong? Obama claimed to be setting the facts straight, but who here believes that illegal aliens will not receive health care under this health care bill if it is passed? Rather ironic, since they seem to be the only current people who receive free medical benefits via the emergency room. On the other hand, since the illegal aliens are already receiving free health care, paid by US taxpayers, maybe the senator should vent his frustration with that.

Senator Harry Reid, once said, "you have to call them as you see them," after referring to his comments that Bush was a liar. I agree. (by the way, he never apologized to Bush.)

Thinking a bit about the outrage of the press and some individuals over the freshman senator's quick outburst (which was much less lengthy than the many outburst of applause), it seems that we have lost relevance. The actions of the gov't such as ridiculous and wasteful spending, continued war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the continence of the unconstitutional Patriot Act, unfair taxation, etc, should raise far more eyebrows than one senator expressing his thoughts. If there is outrage, it should be against all of the senators and congressmen who voted for us to go to war, who voted for the Patriot Act, who voted for wasteful spending, etc. Get for real.

Bush passed all his agenda with a Republican dominated congress through six years of his terms. He also was one of the only presidents in history to never use a veto to stop any legislation. That emphatically includes the Irag war and tax cuts for the rich, each of which have cost us more than the proposed heath reform bill will cost us.

As to Wilson, if his defense of his outburst is that the Republicans offered two amendments that would have verified the exclusion of illegal aliens from recieving benefit from the reform bill, I'd really like a Democrat to step forward to explain why these amendments were defeated in committee. Were they loaded with riders or language not pertaining directly to the issue? I'd like to see more light on this issue, rather than all this hoopla over manners.

Bush passed all his agenda with a Republican dominated congress through six years of his terms. He also was one of the only presidents in history to never use a veto to stop any legislation. That emphatically includes the Irag war and tax cuts for the rich, each of which have cost us more than the proposed heath reform bill will cost us.

Bush pproposed and signed into law tax cuts for the rich, middle class, and poor, after Clinton jacked them up on all income groups. Obama has pledged to keep all of Bush's tax cuts under 250K a year. Be careful what you complain about - regardless of how much you make, you have Bush to thank for your lower tax rate. You might not be thanking Obama though in a year or so.

I would also question whether tax cuts on those that make 250K a year generate more than 1 - 2 trillion over ten years (what health reform may end up costing). That's a very small slice, I do not believe they produce that kind of revenue for the federal government. The Iraq and Afganistan wars combined have cost us around one trillion, there's no arguing that. Health subsidies however will drag on forever, costing far more than pretty much every war we have ever fought. Not that that's a bad thing, but at least we should be doing fair comparisons.

I don't want this to morph into tax cut debate. I'd like to find out more about why Dems voted down amendments that would add verification to the exclusion of illegals.