Toyota Pruis

Without getting into the humans as original thinkers argument, he did cite concrete data showing that the Prius isn't as environmentally friendly as commonly believed. You've yet to produce evidence to the contrary, other than the fact that some of your friends drive one because they want to help save the environment. Anecdotal evidence about friends' opinions doesn't really constitute original thinking either.

See my post above for the source of his "concrete data" that you so love and note that he didn't really cite any sources besides a marketing group.

Nickel, by the way, is primarily used to make stainless steel."

... and I've never met a Hummer owner who didn't also have stainless steel appliances. :funn::roll:

See my post above for the source of his "concrete data" that you so love and note that he didn't really cite any sources besides a marketing group.

Saw that after I posted. Interesting information. My point is that whatever he posted is better than friends' opinions as far as original thinking goes. I'm all for reducing our dependence on oil, and assuming there is money in it, which Prius is proving that there is, entrepreneurs will find a way to make it happen. I'm not an environmentalist, so I can live with the battery disposal, but true environmentalists should take that into account before they go telling everyone how much they care about the environment. I still stand by my statement that it is more of a status symbol.

Chickpea, and other Prius owners, out of curiosity, what do you keep your home and officer thermostat on in July and January, respectively?

I am the wrong person to ask because I am not a huge AC lover - here, in Jan, thermostat is generally off and windows open (cannot stand canned air - need fresh air mostly) and in July, thermostat is between 77-78. I am still trained to turn it off when I leave and back on when we come in (although that may conceivably use up more energy) but we do not have a big house and it gets cool very quickly.

This argument/article is based on misleading and out of date information. The information is from a marketing firm, not an independent reasearcher (3 guesses who paid for the study) and doesn't exactly compare apples and apples. To begin with, they assume a Prius has a 100,000 mile lifespan and a Hummer has a 300,000 life span.

The main argument against the Prius seems to be the enviromental damage at the Sudbury plant.......which occurred in the 70s and 80s! This information is outdated and inaccurrate. See the rebuttals from the 2 sources below:
"The Sudbury info is seriously outdated, and the comment about moon buggies (like, when did Nasa test moon buggies ? early 1970?s) ought to have given the author a clue. Sudbury was polluted by a century of mining (1870 on). In fact, some of Sudbury?s nickel went into making the Statue of Liberty. Currently, the mine is owned by INCO (not Toyota), and produces 100,000 tons of nickel a year, of which Toyota buys 1% (1000 tons). Nickel, by the way, is primarily used to make stainless steel."

"...... article about the Inco nickel factory at Sudbury, Canada, wrongly implied that poisonous fumes from the factory had left the area looking like a lunar landscape because so many plants and trees had died. You also sought to blame Toyota because the nickel is used, among countless other purposes, for making the Prius hybrid car batteries.
In fact any damage occurred more than thirty years ago, long before the Prius was made. Since then, Inco has reduced sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent and has helped to plant more than 11 million trees.
The company has won praise from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and environmental groups. Sudbury has won several conservation awards and is a centre for eco-tourism."

Matthew Christ needs to choose his sources better. The main anti-Prius argument is from an article in to the March 7, 2007 issue of the Central Connecticut State "Recorder" a college paper, which is itself being questioned as nothing more than a thin rewrite of the marketing group's press release!

I appreciated BMBV's post and your rebuttal and I am frankly amazed at the conversation this thread has spawned. Like most people on this board I am capable of thinking critically and realize that positions and passions run high on both fronts.

As for me, buying a Pruis when we need to make that commitment continues to be a relatively simple choice - I FAR prefer the way other cars look - I could not give 2 hoots about status symbol - that will wear off very fast - I care very much about the environment and probably more about NOT wanting to spend hard earned money on gas- Full stop. I am already shell shocked at it costing between $35-40 to fill up cars we presently own (and i realize how very spoiled we are here -in europe ones pays far far more and in the middle east, in some countries, fresh spring water costs more than gasoline!)

Just to add to my last post:

With respect to the environment, I continue to be amazed that almost 7 years into this administration there continues to be a disregard for inconvenient evidence - editorial changes are made to commissioned reports, etc, etc..a sobering reality in the 21st century but you guys know the drill.

My bigger point is that with so little free time, and seemingly strong beliefs on both sides of the coin, I prefer to leave the back and forth to those of you passionately enjoy the debates - I lack the energy to try convert....

6th Gen, I don't recall saying that I was choosing the Prius for environmental reasons. My anecdotal evidence was in response to you quoting a Hollywood news article from 2002, stating that people buy the Prius because they want people to think that they are environmentally conscious.

Also, here is some concrete evidence for you. The Hummer H2 weighs in at 8,600 lbs, while the Toyota Prius weighs in at 2,932 lbs, almost 1/3 that of the Hummer. In all of your quotes, you never mention the added wear and tear on the road of the H2 compared to the Prius. The heavier the vehicle, the more the wear and tear, and therefore, the more asphalt needed to maintain the roads. Why don't you do a little research and contrast the needed frequency of road paving if everyone drove H2s, as compared to Priuses? I am sure that environmental footprint would add up.

6th Gen, I don't recall saying that I was choosing the Prius for environmental reasons. My anecdotal evidence was in response to you quoting a Hollywood news article from 2002, stating that people buy the Prius because they want people to think that they are environmentally conscious.

Also, here is some concrete evidence for you. The Hummer H2 weighs in at 8,600 lbs, while the Toyota Prius weighs in at 2,932 lbs, almost 1/3 that of the Hummer. In all of your quotes, you never mention the added wear and tear on the road of the H2 compared to the Prius. The heavier the vehicle, the more the wear and tear, and therefore, the more asphalt needed to maintain the roads. Why don't you do a little research and contrast the needed frequency of road paving if everyone drove H2s, as compared to Priuses? I am sure that environmental footprint would add up.

And here I go going out on a limb again - if anyone of us happen to be involved in an accident with a hummer - chances are good that we will be goners!! It is borderline criminally insane to allow those as recreational cars. I was at a light once with one next to me and when I saw up close how high their center of gravity (front of the car) was, it coincided pretty much with where my head was. Scared me out of my mind!

6th Gen, I don't recall saying that I was choosing the Prius for environmental reasons. My anecdotal evidence was in response to you quoting a Hollywood news article from 2002, stating that people buy the Prius because they want people to think that they are environmentally conscious.

Also, here is some concrete evidence for you. The Hummer H2 weighs in at 8,600 lbs, while the Toyota Prius weighs in at 2,932 lbs, almost 1/3 that of the Hummer. In all of your quotes, you never mention the added wear and tear on the road of the H2 compared to the Prius. The heavier the vehicle, the more the wear and tear, and therefore, the more asphalt needed to maintain the roads. Why don't you do a little research and contrast the needed frequency of road paving if everyone drove H2s, as compared to Priuses? I am sure that environmental footprint would add up.

No, the fact that popular culture has determined that it is a status symbol, as evidenced by the many articles I've posted, proves that it is. Again, whether your friends believe that it is or not has nothing to do with that fact.

As for the Hummer comparison, of course the Hummer has more of an impact than a Prius, but the rest of the Prius' environmental impact cannot be ignored if that is the basis of the consumer's choice. However, for someone making the decision based on environmental impact, the Hummer is a false choice. The Prius would be better compared to the Corolla or the Civic, or even the Accord. That is where, I believe it fails.

I am the wrong person to ask because I am not a huge AC lover - here, in Jan, thermostat is generally off and windows open (cannot stand canned air - need fresh air mostly) and in July, thermostat is between 77-78. I am still trained to turn it off when I leave and back on when we come in (although that may conceivably use up more energy) but we do not have a big house and it gets cool very quickly.

I was just curious. The sustainable consumption movement is gaining ground, but it has a long way to go and a lot to prove before it reaches the mainstream. Just in case you haven't heard of it, one aspect is they reject alternatives to environmental impact, such as the battery in the Prius (not sure on this specifically). I read a story on a lightbulb that used much less energy, but they refused to endorse it because the bulb used a very small amount of mercury. I don't believe they've taken economics classes.

No, the fact that popular culture has determined that it is a status symbol, as evidenced by the many articles I've posted, proves that it is. Again, whether your friends believe that it is or not has nothing to do with that fact.
...The Prius would be better compared to the Corolla or the Civic, or even the Accord. That is where, I believe it fails.

Three magazine/newspaper magazines do not make popular culture. Typically, people are swayed by magazines and newspapers, so if it the Prius is a status symbol, it is only because the writers say it is so, not because the buyers believe it.

If the Hummer is a false choice for comparison, I'm guessing it is so, based on size. If that is the case, the Corolla and Civic would also be false choices based on compact size, though the Accord would be a better choice for comparison.

This thread is still alive?

My point is that whatever he posted is better than friends' opinions as far as original thinking goes.

False information cribbed from a marketing group is better than empirical evidence that comes from a friend?

You were against a more fuel efficient car because of the environmental impact of its battery production/disposal, but CONDEMN an environmental group for not promoting a more energy efficient light bulb because of the environmental impact of the mercury in it? Consistency thou art a gem :roll:

Three magazine/newspaper magazines do not make popular culture.

No, but I don't have time to dig up every article. Would you argue that Hollywood isn't pop culture, either?

If the Hummer is a false choice for comparison, I'm guessing it is so, based on size. If that is the case, the Corolla and Civic would also be false choices based on compact size, though the Accord would be a better choice for comparison.

It's a false choice because for the environmentalist, it gets far worse gas milage than other choices. Environmentalists crux is sacrificing personal luxuries for the sake of the environment, so the Corolla and Civic are still top choices. The Prius is supposed to be the best for the environment, so size should not matter. If you were talking about the Ford Escape Hybrid you could bring that up, but not if the deciding factor is environmental impact.

No, but I don't have time to dig up every article. Would you argue that Hollywood isn't pop culture, either?



It's a false choice because for the environmentalist, it gets far worse gas milage than other choices. Environmentalists crux is sacrificing personal luxuries for the sake of the environment, so the Corolla and Civic are still top choices. The Prius is supposed to be the best for the environment, so size should not matter. If you were talking about the Ford Escape Hybrid you could bring that up, but not if the deciding factor is environmental impact.

You ride me about not providing you with evidence other than factual evidence of actual owners and friends, yet you state that you don't have time to dig up every article. I don't want to make the time to do it myself. I have not been stating that the Prius is the be-all, end-all of cars. Perhaps you are reading too deeply into my posts.

I don't believe that being able to fit inside a car, is a luxury. I guess you've never sat in the back seat of the Corolla, Civic, and the Prius. ;-) Size does matter.

False information cribbed from a marketing group is better than empirical evidence that comes from a friend?

Do you even know what empirical data is?

You were against a more fuel efficient car because of the environmental impact of its battery production/disposal, but CONDEMN an environmental group for not promoting a more energy efficient light bulb because of the environmental impact of the mercury in it? Consistency thou art a gem :roll:

I hate that I have to spell this out, but the Prius sells because people believe that it has the least environmental impact when it most likely does not, as battery construction and disposal outweighs the gains they make in lower fuel consumption. I'm condemning an environmental group because they are against any sort of progress unless it fits in their box of no trade off in impact. In other words, no matter how much less the impact, they are against the product if it has any sort of trade off.

Do you even know what empirical data is?



I hate that I have to spell this out, but the Prius sells because people believe that it has the least environmental impact when it most likely does not, as battery construction and disposal outweighs the gains they make in lower fuel consumption. I'm condemning an environmental group because they are against any sort of progress unless it fits in their box of no trade off in impact. In other words, no matter how much less the impact, they are against the product if it has any sort of trade off.

"Empirical data are data that are produced by experiment or observation." Seems an accurate description of SJ's friends telling him about a car.....

The Prius sells because 1) people don't want to spend $50-70 to fill up their car 2) they want to reduce our dependance on fossil fuels.

Silly me, I thought most environmentalists were about saving and conserving the environment, not denying themselves creature comforts. I live a comfortable life while trying to do whatever I can to help the environment, so I guess I'm not a true environmentalist in your eyes because I'm not chewing bark in a yurt!

I filled my motorcycle with gas yesterday -- $16 That may not sound like much, but not long ago, I could fill it for $8. It's been a while since I calculated my gas mileage on it, but I'm keeping the mileage now, to see. I used to get around 40mpg, even if I was heavy on the throttle.

Another reason this thread caught my attention is because of a program I was listening to a couple of weeks ago (can't recall where).

Anyway the gist was that the Honda Accord Hybrid failed for more than the obvious reason of getting less MPG than a Prius. Another (and I assume apparent) reason was that people in the market could not differentiate the body style of the Accord Hybrid and a regular Accord. The only thing was the Hybrid label. They said that a buyer at a dealership wanted to be sure that the Accord would come with the "Hybrid" label on it for the obvious reason (or at least obvious to some).

But after doing some more reading (only because you guys stimulated my intellectual curiosity ), the Accord Hybrid is a powerful 6 cylinder whose gas engine never turns off when driving. So you never get the silent feel of an electric vehicle. Maybe this is another reason.

It certainly appears turbo-diesels can achieve the same mileage as a Prius while at the same time have the ability to burn a diversity of bio-fuel blends.

Only problem is farmers will slash more rain forests to grow more corn and sugar cane..... on and on...on and on.:roll:

"Empirical data are data that are produced by experiment or observation." Seems an accurate description of SJ's friends telling him about a car.....

The Prius sells because 1) people don't want to spend $50-70 to fill up their car 2) they want to reduce our dependance on fossil fuels.

Silly me, I thought most environmentalists were about saving and conserving the environment, not denying themselves creature comforts. I live a comfortable life while trying to do whatever I can to help the environment, so I guess I'm not a true environmentalist in your eyes because I'm not chewing bark in a yurt!

Empirical data does not include anecdotal evidence.

Saying that they buy the Prius to save on gas is the equivalent of saying that people that buy the Mercedes diesels do the same. The second statement has merit.

As for the final paragraph, you keep making my point, that the sustainable consumption crowd is very misguided. I never said you were that type of environmentalist.

I filled my motorcycle with gas yesterday -- $16 That may not sound like much, but not long ago, I could fill it for $8. It's been a while since I calculated my gas mileage on it, but I'm keeping the mileage now, to see. I used to get around 40mpg, even if I was heavy on the throttle.

I hope you bypassed the $1.50 12oz bottle of water in Tom Thumb's cooler that people seem all too happy to buy while concurrently bemoaning gas prices! I hear ya though.

Also, I remember hearing some time ago that the electric hybrids were dangerous to emergency workers after an accident because they could potentially get a fatal jolt while extracating a person from a mangled car...any truth to this or simply part of a misinformation campaign started by big oil?;-)

I hope you bypassed the $1.50 12oz bottle of water in Tom Thumb's cooler that people seem all too happy to buy while concurrently bemoaning gas prices! I hear ya though.

I typically do pass the bottled water, unless I'm without my filter.

6thGen, you are looking for me to provide evidence, via news stories, that Prius owners are not buying for the status symbol. Find me some stories about the zebra-striped elephant. ... It is difficult to find information regarding something that doesn't exist.

Regarding the reasons why the Accord Hybrid didn't sell, I have my guess. I test drove the Accord Hybrid. Being a previous Accord owner and someone who likes Honda products, I wanted to check it out. What I found was a car that felt a little funny when switching from the electric to gas. I also found the car to have way too much horsepower compared to the previous Accord which I owned. My old Accord had something like 160 HP and the new hybrid had about 255 HP. The gas mileage difference between the two was nominal, yet the Hybrid had expensive batteries to replace, and the cost of the Hybrid had skyrocketed over the older model Accords. Also, the cost of repairing the hybrid is more expensive than the gas only model.

Honda needs to go back to making less powerful or multi-powered engines, in order to appeal to the loyal Honda base. Just my opinion.

On a similar rant, Toyota's Tundra is now larger than the 2006 models. The engines are stronger and the actual truck is larger. I have no idea what they were thinking when they made that decision. They already screwed up the best small-sized pickup, the Tacoma, by making it bigger, and now they are screwing up the Tundra.

These companies need to be making smarter engines and have more options for horsepower. The Tundra comes with options of engine size, but it is kind of like the menu at McCONald's, Large or Super-Sized.

....Also, I remember hearing some time ago that the electric hybrids were dangerous to emergency workers after an accident because they could potentially get a fatal jolt while extracating a person from a mangled car...any truth to this or simply part of a misinformation campaign started by big oil?;-)

At well over 200 volts DC, I'd say the battery would be lethal IF you were able to come in contact with exposed leads or circuitry that carried this potential. And DC hurts a lot worse than AC! I just hope 30gay isn't reading this!!!

Not knowing design details, I would suspect that there would be (or should be) some automatic isolation of the battery in this event but maybe that's a future safety evolutionary step.

So not a big oil campaign ;-) . I know you're kidding about that part but some others may take you seriously in their effort to demonize oil companies. I'm not saying they're angels either...what BIG business is?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0428148420070704?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true

Sorry, I just couldn't resist
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0428148420070704?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true

No big surprise there I guess.....