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wrobert

Beach Fanatic

I did one of those for the dollars the county spends.  Pretty sad when you keep electing people that are going to get it under control.

hnooe

Do you think Bob Barr will garner most of the Libertarian votes? Will he hurt McCain's chances? Just curious.

Do you think Bob Barr will garner most of the Libertarian votes? Will he hurt McCain&#039;s chances? Just curious.

traderx

[quote="hnooe2000, post: 430105"]Do you think Bob Barr will garner most of the Libertarian votes? Will he hurt McCain's chances? Just curious.[/quote]
 
 
Barr would not have been my first pick. I agree with his economic/tax policies and his belief that we should bring our non-war engaged troops home and let the likes of France guard Germany. Stop being the Policeman to the world.
 
On the social side, Barr joined the ACLU but I have read that he is still dragging his toes on some social issues which any Libertarian worth his salt should embrace.
 
Having said all that, I will vote for him because I am sick of the slope of the graph in my opening post.
 
ETA: the answer to your question....lol.
 
Yes, I think Barr will hurt McCain's chances for election but having said that, I don't think McCain has much of a chance.  The sheer difference in campaign funds is startling.  And so many want a change.  Bust fatigue and all that.  Maybe McCain will pick a woman or a black as his running mate but not sure how much it will sway the vote.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="hnooe2000">Do you think Bob Barr will garner most of the Libertarian votes? Will he hurt McCain&#039;s chances? Just curious.</blockquote> 
 
Barr would not have been my first pick. I agree with his economic/tax policies and his belief that we should bring our non-war engaged troops home and let the likes of France guard Germany. Stop being the Policeman to the world. 
 
On the social side, Barr joined the ACLU but I have read that he is still dragging his toes on some social issues which any Libertarian worth his salt should embrace. 
 
Having said all that, I will vote for him because I am sick of the slope of the graph in my opening post. 
 
ETA: the answer to your question....lol. 
 
Yes, I think Barr will hurt McCain&#039;s chances for election but having said that, I don&#039;t think McCain has much of a chance. The sheer difference in campaign funds is startling. And so many want a change. Bust fatigue and all that. Maybe McCain will pick a woman or a black as his running mate but not sure how much it will sway the vote.

Miss Critter

Both sides keep spending money because everyone wants spending brought under control, EXCEPT SPENDING IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD OR FOR THEIR OWN PET PROJECTS! Let's face it, no one is willing to make the sacrifice to get spending under control because they feel "the other guy" is not making the sacrifice, and hey, as long as he's getting his, I'm gonna get mine, too!
 
I very much agree that something needs to be done, but where do you start when constituencies seem to want their elected pols to "bring home the bacon?" Not being facetious - really, where do you start?

Both sides keep spending money because everyone wants spending brought under control, EXCEPT SPENDING IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD OR FOR THEIR OWN PET PROJECTS! Let&#039;s face it, no one is willing to make the sacrifice to get spending under control because they feel &quot;the other guy&quot; is not making the sacrifice, and hey, as long as he&#039;s getting his, I&#039;m gonna get mine, too! 
 
I very much agree that something needs to be done, but where do you start when constituencies seem to want their elected pols to &quot;bring home the bacon?&quot; Not being facetious - really, where do you start?

[url]http://www.clubforgrowth.org/dumb_laws/[/url]


Maybe if the Senate would quit spending time passing resolutions honoring dirt, and get back to work........I know I ask too much.

<a href="http://www.clubforgrowth.org/dumb_laws/" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">http://www.clubforgrowth.org/dumb_laws/</a> 
 
 
Maybe if the Senate would quit spending time passing resolutions honoring dirt, and get back to work........I know I ask too much.

[quote="MissCritter, post: 430141"]Both sides keep spending money because everyone wants spending brought under control, EXCEPT SPENDING IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD OR FOR THEIR OWN PET PROJECTS! Let's face it, no one is willing to make the sacrifice to get spending under control because they feel "the other guy" is not making the sacrifice, and hey, as long as he's getting his, I'm gonna get mine, too!
 
I very much agree that something needs to be done, but where do you start when constituencies seem to want their elected pols to "bring home the bacon?" Not being facetious - really, where do you start?[/quote]
 
 
True pork spending accounts for only a small portion of the total federal budget. The biggest components are defense and social entitlements. Interest on the federal debt is growing nicely as well. The federal debt now stands at $9.4 trillion and that number grows larger each year. I have not looked up the annual debt service in a while, but assuming 5.5% or so, the debt service is $500 billion. As boomers age and retire and need increased medical care along with medicaid, food stamps, etc. our budget is going to feel some real strain. I personally believe that it is too late to save our country. And the cause is not due to Dems or Reps but all of them and all of us. The Congress collectively kept spending money and we as an electorate in each of our districts and states kept sending them back to Washington. That sorta tells them that we like the job they are doing so they celebrate by spending money.
 
The worse part of this financial mess is that our children and grandchildren are going to inherit the problem.
 
Here is another scary graph...
 
ETA: the legend did not paste with the graph.  The line represents federal spending per household in current dollars.
 
 
[IMG]http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/budgetchartbook/images/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-S3-Federal-Government-Spending-per.gif[/IMG]

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="MissCritter">Both sides keep spending money because everyone wants spending brought under control, EXCEPT SPENDING IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD OR FOR THEIR OWN PET PROJECTS! Let&#039;s face it, no one is willing to make the sacrifice to get spending under control because they feel &quot;the other guy&quot; is not making the sacrifice, and hey, as long as he&#039;s getting his, I&#039;m gonna get mine, too! 
 
I very much agree that something needs to be done, but where do you start when constituencies seem to want their elected pols to &quot;bring home the bacon?&quot; Not being facetious - really, where do you start?</blockquote> 
 
True pork spending accounts for only a small portion of the total federal budget. The biggest components are defense and social entitlements. Interest on the federal debt is growing nicely as well. The federal debt now stands at $9.4 trillion and that number grows larger each year. I have not looked up the annual debt service in a while, but assuming 5.5% or so, the debt service is $500 billion. As boomers age and retire and need increased medical care along with medicaid, food stamps, etc. our budget is going to feel some real strain. I personally believe that it is too late to save our country. And the cause is not due to Dems or Reps but all of them and all of us. The Congress collectively kept spending money and we as an electorate in each of our districts and states kept sending them back to Washington. That sorta tells them that we like the job they are doing so they celebrate by spending money. 
 
The worse part of this financial mess is that our children and grandchildren are going to inherit the problem. 
 
Here is another scary graph... 
 
ETA: the legend did not paste with the graph. The line represents federal spending per household in current dollars. 
 
 
<img src="http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/budgetchartbook/images/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-S3-Federal-Government-Spending-per.gif" alt="" />

Matt J

SWGB

Traderx, could you find the first graph with defense spending highlighted?  That is the bulk of the national budget and needs to be cut.  We flat out spend more than the next 8 highest spending countries combined.  One trick is to stop policing the world.  I'll just sit back and take the beating for saying cut defense spending.

Traderx, could you find the first graph with defense spending highlighted?  That is the bulk of the national budget and needs to be cut.  We flat out spend more than the next 8 highest spending countries combined.  One trick is to stop policing the world.  I&#039;ll just sit back and take the beating for saying cut defense spending.

futurebeachbum

[b]I guess my math is wrong[/b]

[quote="sowalgayboi, post: 430224"]Traderx, could you find the first graph with defense spending highlighted?  That is the bulk of the national budget and needs to be cut.  .[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I must have misunderstood how percentages and math work all these years. 

From the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007"]2007 federal budget[/URL]

[INDENT][LIST]
[*]$586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
[*]$548.8 billion (+9.0%) - Defense[2]
[*]$394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
[*]$294.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
[*]$276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
[*]$243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
[*]$89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
[*]$76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
[*]$72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans' benefits
[*]$43.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice
[*]$33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
[*]$32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs
[*]$27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture
[*]$26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development
[*]$25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology
[*]$23.5 billion (+0.8%) - Energy
[*]$20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government
[/LIST][/INDENT]

Admittedly, the defense number in the budget is low, since it doesn't reflect some later supplemental appropriations, but the federal budget contains other pieces, like Social Security that are approximately the same magnitude.

I guess my math is wrong 
 
<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="sowalgayboi">Traderx, could you find the first graph with defense spending highlighted? That is the bulk of the national budget and needs to be cut. .</blockquote> 
Interesting. I must have misunderstood how percentages and math work all these years. 
 
From the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">2007 federal budget</a> 
 
<div style="margin-left: 20px"><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$548.8 billion (+9.0%) - Defense[2]</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$294.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans&#039; benefits</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$43.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$23.5 billion (+0.8%) - Energy</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">$20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government</li>
</ul></div> 
Admittedly, the defense number in the budget is low, since it doesn&#039;t reflect some later supplemental appropriations, but the federal budget contains other pieces, like Social Security that are approximately the same magnitude.

I can assure you that if you went thru the budget of each category listed below defense you would find monies spent that benefit defense.  For instance the nuclear arms this country has generally been tucked under energy.

SoWal Insider

shouldn't they change the name back to what it was more accurately called....the Department of War.  Defense my arse!

shouldn&#039;t they change the name back to what it was more accurately called....the Department of War.  Defense my arse!

30A Skunkape

Skunky

[quote="sowalgayboi, post: 433200"]I can assure you that if you went thru the budget of each category listed below defense you would find monies spent that benefit defense.  For instance the nuclear arms this country has generally been tucked under energy.[/QUOTE]

It cuts both ways-the military is feverishly researching alternative fuels, for example.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="sowalgayboi">I can assure you that if you went thru the budget of each category listed below defense you would find monies spent that benefit defense. For instance the nuclear arms this country has generally been tucked under energy.</blockquote> 
It cuts both ways-the military is feverishly researching alternative fuels, for example.

IRIETYMES

Beach Lover

Let me ask a question that I would like to see answered by any and all, and I mean it as a topic for discussion; I take no public sides:

is a Libertarian vote a "wasted" vote?

Let me ask a question that I would like to see answered by any and all, and I mean it as a topic for discussion; I take no public sides: 
 
is a Libertarian vote a &quot;wasted&quot; vote?

[quote="InletBchOwnr, post: 435193"]Let me ask a question that I would like to see answered by any and all, and I mean it as a topic for discussion; I take no public sides:

is a Libertarian vote a "wasted" vote?[/quote]


Personally, I do not believe any vote can be wasted.  Rather or not it would elect a candidate, it does show a voting a block that agree on certain principals.  As the size of that block increases you would start seeing the major contenders adjust their thinking as they pander to the new dynamic.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="InletBchOwnr">Let me ask a question that I would like to see answered by any and all, and I mean it as a topic for discussion; I take no public sides: 
 
is a Libertarian vote a &quot;wasted&quot; vote?</blockquote> 
 
Personally, I do not believe any vote can be wasted. Rather or not it would elect a candidate, it does show a voting a block that agree on certain principals. As the size of that block increases you would start seeing the major contenders adjust their thinking as they pander to the new dynamic.

[quote="InletBchOwnr, post: 435193"]Let me ask a question that I would like to see answered by any and all, and I mean it as a topic for discussion; I take no public sides:
 
is a Libertarian vote a "wasted" vote?[/quote]
 
 
I used to believe so but no longer. Why? Take another look at the graph in my opening post. These days, I have zero perference as to whether a Dem or Rep is elected Prez or the makeup of the Congress. Reps and Dems both have an insatiable appetive for spending my money and yours. To effect a real change in this country, it will have to come from a third party.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="InletBchOwnr">Let me ask a question that I would like to see answered by any and all, and I mean it as a topic for discussion; I take no public sides: 
 
is a Libertarian vote a &quot;wasted&quot; vote?</blockquote> 
 
I used to believe so but no longer. Why? Take another look at the graph in my opening post. These days, I have zero perference as to whether a Dem or Rep is elected Prez or the makeup of the Congress. Reps and Dems both have an insatiable appetive for spending my money and yours. To effect a real change in this country, it will have to come from a third party.

[quote="traderx, post: 435824"]I used to believe so but no longer. Why? Take another look at the graph in my opening post. These days, I have zero perference as to whether a Dem or Rep is elected Prez or the makeup of the Congress. Reps and Dems both have an insatiable appetive for spending my money and yours. To effect a real change in this country, it will have to come from a third party.[/QUOTE]

I've voted Libertarian in the last few elections and I've espoused a belief that the lack of a viable third party has been a serious problem with our form of government here. 

I believe that with a [I]viable[/I]third party, politicians would have to negotiate and compromise and behave like statesmen instead of acting solely as the hired hands of the various special interest groups that own them all. I really dislike the way that, under our current system, the party in charge is totally in charge and doesn't have to reach any form of accommodation with the minority party. I've always liked the way that, in a multiparty environment, the winning party typically has to form a coalition with one or more other groups to govern.

OTOH: I have a lot of employees from other countries (Russia, Bulgaria, Mexico, India, Turkey, Taiwan , Germany and others) and to a person, the employees who come from countries with such a model complain bitterly about it. They say that the winning party is usually held hostage by the minority party just to stay in power and they see it as a form of blackmail. They have numerous ugly anecdotes  related to this.

I suppose the grass is always greener somewhere else. 

As a aside, I don't know how Libertarians on the board feel about it, but I don't believe for a minute that Bob Barr is a Libertarian. He may have some conservative views on spending (and Libertarian doesn't necessarily mean being a knee-jerk conservative) but I am sure he would support FISA, warrantless searches and the general dismissal of the Constitution as much as any Democrat or Republican candidate does and that just ain't Libertarian to me.

Frankly, I don't see how someone who was a Federal Prosecutor, much less a lawyer can ever reasonably cast themselves as a Libertarian.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="traderx">I used to believe so but no longer. Why? Take another look at the graph in my opening post. These days, I have zero perference as to whether a Dem or Rep is elected Prez or the makeup of the Congress. Reps and Dems both have an insatiable appetive for spending my money and yours. To effect a real change in this country, it will have to come from a third party.</blockquote> 
I&#039;ve voted Libertarian in the last few elections and I&#039;ve espoused a belief that the lack of a viable third party has been a serious problem with our form of government here. 
 
I believe that with a viablethird party, politicians would have to negotiate and compromise and behave like statesmen instead of acting solely as the hired hands of the various special interest groups that own them all. I really dislike the way that, under our current system, the party in charge is totally in charge and doesn&#039;t have to reach any form of accommodation with the minority party. I&#039;ve always liked the way that, in a multiparty environment, the winning party typically has to form a coalition with one or more other groups to govern. 
 
OTOH: I have a lot of employees from other countries (Russia, Bulgaria, Mexico, India, Turkey, Taiwan , Germany and others) and to a person, the employees who come from countries with such a model complain bitterly about it. They say that the winning party is usually held hostage by the minority party just to stay in power and they see it as a form of blackmail. They have numerous ugly anecdotes related to this. 
 
I suppose the grass is always greener somewhere else. 
 
As a aside, I don&#039;t know how Libertarians on the board feel about it, but I don&#039;t believe for a minute that Bob Barr is a Libertarian. He may have some conservative views on spending (and Libertarian doesn&#039;t necessarily mean being a knee-jerk conservative) but I am sure he would support FISA, warrantless searches and the general dismissal of the Constitution as much as any Democrat or Republican candidate does and that just ain&#039;t Libertarian to me. 
 
Frankly, I don&#039;t see how someone who was a Federal Prosecutor, much less a lawyer can ever reasonably cast themselves as a Libertarian.

ckhagen

[quote="wrobert, post: 435222"]Personally, I do not believe any vote can be wasted.  Rather or not it would elect a candidate, it does show a voting a block that agree on certain principals.  As the size of that block increases you would start seeing the major contenders adjust their thinking as they pander to the new dynamic.[/quote]

I totally agree with this statement. 
As long as we keep telling people their vote "doesn't count" because it isn't for someone who could obviously win, we will never see the change we want to see. The two major parties will never adapt unless they're threatened, why would they? Something has to give. My vote counts no matter who it's for. It counts because it's a testimony to what I believe in...

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="wrobert">Personally, I do not believe any vote can be wasted. Rather or not it would elect a candidate, it does show a voting a block that agree on certain principals. As the size of that block increases you would start seeing the major contenders adjust their thinking as they pander to the new dynamic.</blockquote> 
I totally agree with this statement. 
As long as we keep telling people their vote &quot;doesn&#039;t count&quot; because it isn&#039;t for someone who could obviously win, we will never see the change we want to see. The two major parties will never adapt unless they&#039;re threatened, why would they? Something has to give. My vote counts no matter who it&#039;s for. It counts because it&#039;s a testimony to what I believe in...

Here is one reason. Dems and Reps alike have an insatiable appetite to spend money. And...this is not inflation, the graph represents expenditures in 2007 dollars.
 
 
 
 
 
 
[IMG]http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/budgetchartbook/images/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-S1-Federal-Spending-Has-Increased.gif[/IMG]

Here is one reason. Dems and Reps alike have an insatiable appetite to spend money. And...this is not inflation, the graph represents expenditures in 2007 dollars. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
<img src="http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/budgetchartbook/images/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-S1-Federal-Spending-Has-Increased.gif" alt="" />

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