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idlewind

Beach Fanatic

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT][LEFT][I](1) The point source of light or any reflective surface of the light fixture shall not[/I]
[I]be directly visible to an observer on the beach: and[/I]
[I](2) The light shall not directly or indirectly illuminate any portion of the beach or[/I]
[I]dune system seaward of the crest of the primary dune.[/I]
[I]Lights mandated by Federal regulations (e.g., Federal Aviation Administration) for[/I]
[I]illuminating obstructions in navigable airspace and lights required by the U.S. Coast[/I]
[I]Guard for boat navigation are exempt from the provisions of this section provided such[/I]
[I]lights have been reviewed and approved in accordance with requirements of the Federal[/I]
[I]Endangered Species Act. Also exempted are traffic signals and traditional holiday lights[/I][/LEFT]
[I]used outside the sea turtle nesting season.[/I]
 
Does this mean that SanDestin and others cannot use their huge lights to illuminate the beach for safety purposes?  Who is liable when the first tourist gets assaulted in the dark?
[/FONT]

<div style="text-align: left">(1) The point source of light or any reflective surface of the light fixture shall not 
be directly visible to an observer on the beach: and 
(2) The light shall not directly or indirectly illuminate any portion of the beach or 
dune system seaward of the crest of the primary dune. 
Lights mandated by Federal regulations (e.g., Federal Aviation Administration) for 
illuminating obstructions in navigable airspace and lights required by the U.S. Coast 
Guard for boat navigation are exempt from the provisions of this section provided such 
lights have been reviewed and approved in accordance with requirements of the Federal 
Endangered Species Act. Also exempted are traffic signals and traditional holiday lights&#8203;</div>used outside the sea turtle nesting season. 
 
Does this mean that SanDestin and others cannot use their huge lights to illuminate the beach for safety purposes? Who is liable when the first tourist gets assaulted in the dark?

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT][LEFT][I](7) Lighting of dune walkovers and elevated crossovers to the beach is[/I][/LEFT]
[I]prohibited.[/I]
 
Who will be liable when someone sues after falling on an unlit walkover?
[/FONT]

<div style="text-align: left">(7) Lighting of dune walkovers and elevated crossovers to the beach is&#8203;</div>prohibited. 
 
Who will be liable when someone sues after falling on an unlit walkover?

scooterbug44

You can easily have sufficient exterior and safety lighting while following the turtle guidelines. All those guidelines prevent is massive light pollution.

Omnipresent floodlights don't guarantee tourists' safety, but they [B]do[/B] kill turtles and keep the same tourists (and locals) from enjoying the night sky.

The last time I went to the beach w/ out of town guests, they had no problem walking down the walkway/stairs w/ the aid of a flashlight or cell phone, but severe injuries were barely avoided from those $%^#%*#* holes in the sand!

You can easily have sufficient exterior and safety lighting while following the turtle guidelines. All those guidelines prevent is massive light pollution. 
 
Omnipresent floodlights don&#039;t guarantee tourists&#039; safety, but they do kill turtles and keep the same tourists (and locals) from enjoying the night sky. 
 
The last time I went to the beach w/ out of town guests, they had no problem walking down the walkway/stairs w/ the aid of a flashlight or cell phone, but severe injuries were barely avoided from those $%^#%*#* holes in the sand!

[quote="scooterbug44, post: 507368"]You can easily have sufficient exterior and safety lighting while following the turtle guidelines. All those guidelines prevent is massive light pollution.
 
Omnipresent floodlights don't guarantee tourists' safety, but they [B]do[/B] kill turtles and keep the same tourists (and locals) from enjoying the night sky.
 
The last time I went to the beach w/ out of town guests, they had no problem walking down the walkway/stairs w/ the aid of a flashlight or cell phone, but severe injuries were barely avoided from those $%^#%*#* holes in the sand![/quote]
 
 
However, the question remains;  if this is passed, is the county liable if someone is injured on an unlit walkover?  :idontno:

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="scooterbug44">You can easily have sufficient exterior and safety lighting while following the turtle guidelines. All those guidelines prevent is massive light pollution. 
 
Omnipresent floodlights don&#039;t guarantee tourists&#039; safety, but they do kill turtles and keep the same tourists (and locals) from enjoying the night sky. 
 
The last time I went to the beach w/ out of town guests, they had no problem walking down the walkway/stairs w/ the aid of a flashlight or cell phone, but severe injuries were barely avoided from those $%^#%*#* holes in the sand!</blockquote> 
 
However, the question remains; if this is passed, is the county liable if someone is injured on an unlit walkover? :idontno:

Is the county liable if they make someone build stairs to code or install an ADA compliant wheelchair ramp and someone falls down them?

NotDeadYet

Idlewind's questions have all been answered at the innumerable hearings on this issue over the last ten years, and more than once, each, no matter whether it is safety, cost, liability, whatever.  It's reinventing the wheel, over and over again here in the panhandle. :bang:Other places, whether it is other counties in south and central Florida, other states, and even other countries, have all been down this well-traveled road.
For some reason that I cannot understand, people fail to [I]hear[/I] the solutions when they are presented. It is as if their minds raise an objection, and then cling to it no matter what information they are given. :idontno:

Idlewind&#039;s questions have all been answered at the innumerable hearings on this issue over the last ten years, and more than once, each, no matter whether it is safety, cost, liability, whatever. It&#039;s reinventing the wheel, over and over again here in the panhandle. :bang:Other places, whether it is other counties in south and central Florida, other states, and even other countries, have all been down this well-traveled road. 
For some reason that I cannot understand, people fail to hear the solutions when they are presented. It is as if their minds raise an objection, and then cling to it no matter what information they are given. :idontno:

Andy A

Its very simple.  Pass the damn thing!  I live on the beach and our front owners can stand the minimal cost and it has been years in coming to fruitionl.

incredible1

Beach Lover

The darker the better 
It sure is pretty when it is 
For anyone to be liable for any thing wouldnt it need to be shown for gross negligence to have taken place. 
Its like going to a baseball game
You assume the risk of a foul ball maybe hitting you....... cos you are at a baseball game.... and they use baseballs .....
If its dark, be careful .........
Common sense versus courtrooms

The darker the better 
It sure is pretty when it is 
For anyone to be liable for any thing wouldnt it need to be shown for gross negligence to have taken place. 
Its like going to a baseball game 
You assume the risk of a foul ball maybe hitting you....... cos you are at a baseball game.... and they use baseballs ..... 
If its dark, be careful ......... 
Common sense versus courtrooms

Matt J

SWGB

SanDestin will most likely not be affected.  Similar to certain areas of PCB (Spinnaker's and LaVela) if the overall noise level is loud enough the lights are not a problem as turtles will avoid the noise first and foremost.

SanDestin will most likely not be affected.  Similar to certain areas of PCB (Spinnaker&#039;s and LaVela) if the overall noise level is loud enough the lights are not a problem as turtles will avoid the noise first and foremost.

The west end, including Sandestin, has nests every year.

John R

needs to get out more

[quote="idlewind, post: 507359"]
 
Does this mean that SanDestin and others cannot use their huge lights to illuminate the beach for safety purposes?  Who is liable when the first tourist gets assaulted in the dark?
[/QUOTE]

how did humans ever navigate a beach at night before lights?  possibly if there are no lights, someone's assumption of the risk is increased...

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="idlewind">Does this mean that SanDestin and others cannot use their huge lights to illuminate the beach for safety purposes? Who is liable when the first tourist gets assaulted in the dark?</blockquote> 
how did humans ever navigate a beach at night before lights? possibly if there are no lights, someone&#039;s assumption of the risk is increased...

wrobert

[quote="John R, post: 507746"]how did humans ever navigate a beach at night before lights?  possibly if there are no lights, someone's assumption of the risk is increased...[/quote]


Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards?  What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night?

Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not.  I do not see how we can have it both ways.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="John R">how did humans ever navigate a beach at night before lights? possibly if there are no lights, someone&#039;s assumption of the risk is increased...</blockquote> 
 
Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards? What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night? 
 
Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not. I do not see how we can have it both ways.

30A Skunkape

Skunky

[quote="wrobert, post: 507765"]Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards?  What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night?

Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not.  I do not see how we can have it both ways.[/QUOTE]

I think the slip and fall lawyers are the ones who are acting like children and have intimidated us to the point where common sense can't prevail.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="wrobert">Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards? What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night? 
 
Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not. I do not see how we can have it both ways.</blockquote> 
I think the slip and fall lawyers are the ones who are acting like children and have intimidated us to the point where common sense can&#039;t prevail.

[quote="wrobert, post: 507765"]Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards?  What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night?

Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not.  I do not see how we can have it both ways.[/QUOTE]

by your reasoning, should we get rid of traffic lights also?

I believe lights at crosswalks are a pretty standard safety tool used throughout the country.  Lights on a beach seem like an amenity and really not a requirement.  Most beaches I've been on at night are pretty nice on their own merit, with out lighting.  

did i read your statement the wrong way?

re lifeguards.  either we should have them on all our publicly accessed beaches, or get rid of the program.

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="wrobert">Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards? What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night? 
 
Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not. I do not see how we can have it both ways.</blockquote> 
by your reasoning, should we get rid of traffic lights also? 
 
I believe lights at crosswalks are a pretty standard safety tool used throughout the country. Lights on a beach seem like an amenity and really not a requirement. Most beaches I&#039;ve been on at night are pretty nice on their own merit, with out lighting. 
 
did i read your statement the wrong way? 
 
re lifeguards. either we should have them on all our publicly accessed beaches, or get rid of the program.

[quote="wrobert, post: 507765"]Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards?  What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night?

Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not.  I do not see how we can have it both ways.[/quote]

Perhaps you can explain the detrimental environmental effects of lifeguards or crosswalks?

<blockquote class="xfBb-quote" data-name="wrobert">Why have we not used the assumption of risk argument when it comes to lifeguards? What about the hundreds of thousands we have spent so tourists can cross the street at night? 
 
Either we are going to treat the tourists as children or we are not. I do not see how we can have it both ways.</blockquote> 
Perhaps you can explain the detrimental environmental effects of lifeguards or crosswalks?

Perhaps you can explain to a father and mother why their daughter was raped on a beach we advertise as "safe."  There is no way to have a safe beach for humans at night without light.  Read any risk prevention pamplet you wish ( my insurance company sends them out by the millions:biggrin:) and it will advise you to make sure your property is well lit in order to prevent you becoming a crime victim.

Perhaps you can explain to a father and mother why their daughter was raped on a beach we advertise as &quot;safe.&quot;  There is no way to have a safe beach for humans at night without light.  Read any risk prevention pamplet you wish ( my insurance company sends them out by the millions😀) and it will advise you to make sure your property is well lit in order to prevent you becoming a crime victim.

perhaps you advocate the entire beach being lit?  do we advertise our beaches being safe at [I]night[/I]?

perhaps you advocate the entire beach being lit? do we advertise our beaches being safe at night?

I don't advocate any lighting on the beach, I also do not advocate banning lighting on the beach.  The landowner should be able to make that decision.  Since the white sandy parts should be public, then there should be no lighting there.  But if the upland owner wants to make his pool area look like Times Square, that is his business.

I don&#039;t advocate any lighting on the beach, I also do not advocate banning lighting on the beach.  The landowner should be able to make that decision.  Since the white sandy parts should be public, then there should be no lighting there.  But if the upland owner wants to make his pool area look like Times Square, that is his business.

Walton Outdoors

[B][COLOR=#339966]Meeting at courthouse in DeFuniak Springs[/COLOR][/B]

 First hearing of a new wildlife lighting ordinance (a.k.a. sea turtle lighting ordinance) to be heard at Dec. 9 county commission meeting.  It is designed to protect endangered sea turtles and other wildlife affected by lights within Walton County's coastal communities.
 [B]Tuesday, December 9, 2008
4:00 p.m.  Regular Meeting
Walton County Courthouse, DeFuniak Springs[/B]
[URL="http://www.waltonoutdoors.com/?p=2245"]Click Walton Outdoors post to see agenda and ordinance draft[/URL]

Meeting at courthouse in DeFuniak Springs 
 
 First hearing of a new wildlife lighting ordinance (a.k.a. sea turtle lighting ordinance) to be heard at Dec. 9 county commission meeting. It is designed to protect endangered sea turtles and other wildlife affected by lights within Walton County&#039;s coastal communities. 
 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 
4:00 p.m. Regular Meeting 
Walton County Courthouse, DeFuniak Springs 
<a href="http://www.waltonoutdoors.com/?p=2245" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">Click Walton Outdoors post to see agenda and ordinance draft</a>

Wildlife lighting ordinance hearing Dec. 9

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Wildlife lighting ordinance hearing Dec. 9

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