Mosquito Control wants to spend $1.2 million for a new poison spray plane

Care to disclose what carcinogenic polymers were used in the manufacture of your avatar dolly, Mothernature;-) :roll:

Here is mothernature's article. It is an interesting read actually. But the big message I get from it is that we are a much cleaner lot now than we were in the 1970s, and the author enjoys a healthy adulthood even though he grew up in less environmentally conscious times.

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0610/feature4/index.html

Cute, Skunkape. Actually, as you can tell by my picture I haven't had time to get out much on the sunny SW beaches. I'm too busy doing research.:shock:

I'm glad you're an aware consumer looking to buy healthier products for you and your family. That makes good sense!

OM-I never said we have all the answers about pathology, cause and effect, etc. Just out of curiousity, what are some of the idiopathic conditions you are talking about?

Sorry to hear about docs throwing steroids at your hubby, but to be fair, I know nothing of his history (and please-DO NOT POST IT HERE!😀 )and there are some vexing autoimmune disorders where steroids are not the wrong answer even if a diagnosis is not clinched. With that said, I know of nobody who routinely hands out steroids for no good reason.

I don't think alternative medicine is as discounted as you might think. Interventions not taught in western medical schools are embraced, as long as they make some physiological sense, are not dangerous and have demonstrated efficacy. Unfortunately, there are way too many hucksters out there looking to make a buck by cashing in on the hopes and fears of sick people. Quackery is a spade I will call out whenever I see it in the name of beneficence.

I agree with you regarding allopathic's shortcomings as far as preventative medicine goes. You will be happy to know that this is a concept that is being stressed in med schools and residency programs at present, and the fruits will be obvious a few years down the road. Personally, I feel preventative care is a keystone to good health. Please know that I have nagged more than one member of SOWAL into going in and getting checkups. One of the things that turns me off of working in the ER is there is little meaningful opportunity to establish long term healthcare relationships-it is almost exclusively reactionary (and for others such as adrenaline junkies, that is great and they would slit their wrists in primary care):cool:

The pediatric pesticide study has been around for some time now, and as it states, nobody knows what, if any, import there is with the results. Of course, given the choice between feeding a kid pesticide treated versus non-treated is a non-brainer if it is an option, but I think my original point was simply pointing out that an organically grown bunch of grapes that is crawling with E. coli is a worse option than 'conventional' grapes. But let me just say that no matter what, parents who get their kids to lay off the french fries and chicken nuggets in favor of fruits and veggies in the formative years will have healthier kids in the long run any way you look at it:cool:

I am not sure who is and who isn't testing their products (Monsanto) in other countries, but in our country companies that market stuff like roundup have to have done comprehensive testing and the results are available to the public....here for example http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Monsanto-Roundup-MSDS-Docs.htm

I don't know what they are doing to their seeds!:rolling:

And since you brought up developing countries, let me pitch this ethical question at you (and understand that I do not claim to know the correct answer):Some countries in malarial stricken Africa are flirting with the idea of restarting the use of DDT, which in a vacuum is an excellent agent to fight malaria;do you think it is ethically correct for the United States and other first world countries to threaten economic aid withdrawl to said countries if they use DDT? DDT will result in the saving of thousands of lives yearly with probable untoward environmental impact...what do you think our policy toward the African nations be?:scratch:

Okay, let me address the grapes.... clean them with a biologically safe cleaner!;-) Yes, you'll get sick if you don't, but that's common sense! Ask peaboy how they clean veggies and fruits in the juicebar. I wouldn't go around and just eat dirt, nor would I not wash my organically grown grapes. Hell yeah, I'd get sick if I didn't. But I wouldn't wash them with an antibacterial soap as that is as bad/worse than the original problem.

Question, even with the move towards more focus in viable alternative medicine in med school, how many hours are logged in regarding nutrition? Yes, it's simple to say to not eat BigMacs and fries with a supersize Coke everyday, but what time is given to the nuances of true nutrition? I took nutrition in undergrad and it was truly nothing more than the basic food groups. I still have my textbook here (as a joke!), if you wanna see it.😀

Just as MotherNature points out, could these pathologies that allopathic medicine has not figured out actually be caused by the toxins & poisons? The study points out that it is truly not known. It is ridiculous to say, "Let's use this product until we find out if it kills us or not." That becomes a little late, doesn't it?

My point is that we should use the knowledge learned through science & allopathic medicine with the knowledge that has been there in holistic medicine for ages. Yes, you mentioned earlier that the average lifespan has been prolonged... But what of health in our advanced years? Is it truly better across the board? There are a number of illnesses that point to toxic exposure as the culprit or as the straw that broke the camel's back.

Let me preface what I am about to say with this: It is my opinion that the African continent as a whole has been shafted by everyone in regards to real aid and assistance in regards to bringing modern sanitation, health, etc. up to par there. Yes, there is a lot of aid going there, but it is in the form of fixing problems that are there instead of preventing them, kind of like "preventative healthcare." Personally, I know of groups that go to help with malaria & AIDS, and of course, to convert the locals. :blink: But where is the prevention assistance? This gets into social, political and religious issues that are too many to name here.

Okay, about DDT and malaria... I knew about the issue and even Greenpeace backing down on the DDT ban in this instance. My opinion is this: If there is absolutely NOTHING else, then it must be used. It is likened to a person having a heart attack in front of my face... would I make him/her take a supplement or rush them to the ER? The ER, of course. But if I had the chance to work with him/her from the beginning in preventing the problems that caused the heart attack, the necessity of the ER would never be an issue.

The sources that I have read also state that malaria is more of a problem in some countries more than others. I am not using the term problem lightly. I am saying it seriously. DDT also seems to be more effective in some countries more than others. Vietnam managed to curb malaria without the use of DDT. There are key arguments that everyone is missing in this issue of Africa, malaria and DDT. So, right now, the "only answer" is DDT.

But it goes back to what I said a couple of paragraphs ago. Short term, it's like a heart attack or a stroke. Fix it fast. Long term... what about working to build the systems that will support other viable answers? And, if other systems had been in place the whole time, there would never be an "it's DDT or nothing" answer.

No, I won't publicly post specifically about my husband's illness & the symptoms but I will say that it is caused by various exposures to toxins in his environment from his previous career. We have had it tested by MDs. AND, it wasn't 1 MD throwing prednisone and the like at him. I can name about 15-18 that did (here and in Georgia), each stating that he needed it temporarily (although it caused his problems to worsen) or stating that the specific steroid they were giving him wouldn't have the same side effects, although when reading the fine print, each of them had essentially the same effects. Plus, all but about 3 of the MDs discounted our questions in regards to overlapping symptoms, stating that there was no way they were related.

Isn't our body designed to be a fully operating system that can be broken down into its various smaller systems and organs? Isn't the eye an eye, but also a part of a whole body? Does it operate completely separate from the rest of one's body? One day, he might write a song about it. Or an album. Or maybe a book.... :cool:

Do you want me to post links in regards to GM crops and Monsanto? It is a biotechnology company. Need I say more or do I need to post the heck outta some scary links? The biotech science isn't safe, nor it is currently labeled on food. And what about GM foods in regards to allergies in humans? If a (normally non-allerginic) food is genetically modified with a gene from a food (or animal) that a person is allergic to? What happens then? Do you have an answer?

Hey, leave Mother Nature alone. I :wub: her and I'll have to :banging: you up. 😀

Hey, I have an idea-let's all eat some of organicmama's poo-poo grapes that have been irradiated to kill the critters...how's that for compromise?:clap_1:

I appreciate your honesty on the DDT issue:cool:

Nutrition is taught poorly. I feel that I could have spent alot less time learning about mundane biochem pathways and more in areas such as nutrition. I do push breastfeeding on new moms, I will have you know😀

You have really intrigued me regarding what toxin got your hubby:scratch: Based on the few details you have given, I bet rheumatologists, neurologists and endocrinologists were all involved and failed to make a diagnosis and you found one elsewhere...just a guess:idontno: That is how the oddball afflictions tend to run.

And quit :banging: me or you will drive me to :drink:

And since we got so off topic, Skunky & any others out there, why are y'all so pro-spraying pesticides? Why are you not interested in exploring the viable alternatives? What gives? There is no logic in saying, "Well this is the way we've always done it & we don't feel like changing." What is the real issue behind your unwillingness to explore ideas that go beyond the scope of your opinion? Why do you consider yourself right & the rest of us are wrong? Are you afraid of change because it might burst your bubble in regards to what is right/wrong, black/white in your own life?

Just pondering why the subject is such a hotbed of people getting their panties in a wad.

Hey, I have an idea-let's all eat some of organicmama's poo-poo grapes that have been irradiated to kill the critters...how's that for compromise?:clap_1:

I appreciate your honesty on the DDT issue:cool:

Nutrition is taught poorly. I feel that I could have spent alot less time learning about mundane biochem pathways and more in areas such as nutrition. I do push breastfeeding on new moms, I will have you know😀

You have really intrigued me regarding what toxin got your hubby:scratch: Based on the few details you have given, I bet rheumatologists, neurologists and endocrinologists were all involved and failed to make a diagnosis and you found one elsewhere...just a guess:idontno: That is how the oddball afflictions tend to run.

And quit :banging: me or you will drive me to :drink:

I'll stop banging you over the head. If I don't, I might be partaking also!:clap_1: I'm too tired to go get the other smileys.:blink: I've got some good poo-poo grape wine!:funn:

Skunky, his case isn't an oddball affliction. The way it surfaced physically is kind of odd, but totally understandable in regards to his personal & family history. I talk to people on a regular basis who have the same symptoms internally and they are all tired of trying to find out what's going on. BUT each of them is carrying a big body burden of chemicals from their job or home (added with some with those stinky, poisonous air fresheners in every outlet in their office or home!:blink: ), plus stress, poor nutrition, lack of sleep, etc. I am not a doctor, so I cannot diagnose them, or even tell them what is wrong. All I can do is say, "Hey, why don't you go see Dr. _____ and get some help?" If they go, great! If they don't, that's there personal choice. If I "diagnose" them, I'll get sued possibly. Doctors, however, can do the guesswork, screw up and be covered by malpractice insurance.

BTW, we do use MDs, but we are choosy in who we see. Mr. OM has run the gamut of seeing all types, but in regards to myself and the kids, I choose very forward thinking MDs that allow the fact that I have a brain and can make informed choices.

Sadly, even though MDs like you promote breastfeeding, our society as a whole doesn't. It's hard as hell to continue on a path that people are looking at you like you are nuts, but you know you are doing the right thing for you and your children and so you continue on. That said, for those women who don't breastfeed either by choice or circumstance, I am not a breastfeeding nazi. I believe that people make the choices that are best for themselves, as I have pointed out in this thread a zillion times. Someone forcing formula on me or forcing someone to breastfeed who really doesn't want to is ludicrous. Hopefully, people can make informed choices and know their options.

But, cow's milk & soy are two of the BIG allergens, which poses a problem in regards to using formula, even organic. My nephew was on soy formula. Now he's on whole (non-organic;-) ) cow's milk & orange juice (not mixed together, I promise!). He is fed a mainly wheat (i.e., wonder bread) diet, full of other crap. He's had tubes put in his ears and he's on Zyrtec and prednisone. Ironically, even the MDs said they didn't want the child on prednisone, but my brother requested it. He still has a runny nose, as in my mother thinks it's going to fall off... it's that runny and he's sick all the time. He's barely over a year old. In trying to be diplomatic, I asked my brother & SIL if they had considered the allergy tests, not the skin prick (which has a lot of false-positives & false-negatives) but the ELISA & ACT tests which will use his blood to test a ton of food allergies to pinpoint his problems. They looked at me like I was an alien. I backed down because it's not my child. But I know that if they took into consideration his long-term health, they'd make a different decision. Neither test is paid for by insurance and they don't want to do anything out of pocket, so they will stay within the status quo. Sadly, that's not an uncommon issue.

OM, that ELISA/ACT test makes my quack detector go "QUACK, QUACK, QUACK!". I am in favor of simple things as I am a simple person. Instead of baraging neutrophils to hundreds of antigens and arriving at a list of offenders that may or may not trigger allergy, why not simple elimination diets? I know it is work, but I like to get people to selectively omit foods and KEEP A DIARY of what is going into the body and what, if any allergic type symptoms are manifest or fade away. Cheap but not as sexy as the ELISA/ACT, and certainly requires more work than most people are willing to put in. I am glad my health insurance premiums are not footing the bill for such tests.

OM, that ELISA/ACT test makes my quack detector go "QUACK, QUACK, QUACK!". I am in favor of simple things as I am a simple person. Instead of baraging neutrophils to hundreds of antigens and arriving at a list of offenders that may or may not trigger allergy, why not simple elimination diets? I know it is work, but I like to get people to selectively omit foods and KEEP A DIARY of what is going into the body and what, if any allergic type symptoms are manifest or fade away. Cheap but not as sexy as the ELISA/ACT, and certainly requires more work than most people are willing to put in. I am glad my health insurance premiums are not footing the bill for such tests.

Totally agree that the elimination diet works the best! BUT, they aren't even willing to wonder why the heck this child is so freaking sick! They know he has allergies. But they are feeding him major allergens! If I had said, "Take him off wheat, dairy, citrus, corn & soy for a month. Then add 1 back in at a time to see which one(s) could be the culprit..." they would have really run me out of the house! Skunky, that's the whole point, people don't want to go the extra mile to do what could be done SIMPLY.

BTW, the skin prick tests are just as much quackery, as a person with sensitive skin would react to everything pretty much and a person with "tough" skin wouldn't react as much. It doesn't predict allergens any better than ELISA/ACT, although it is CHEAP, it is also a waste of time. Yeah, but your insurance will cover that one, which is why most people go that route.

Here is an article about dog flies and control with many references.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/IG/IG13300.pdf


As I stated in an earlier post, this was a major problem dependent on the wind conditions in Long Beach Island New Jersey were we vacation in summer, and they installed fly traps and it drastically reduced the fly population. It was quite evident in a beach community called Holgate (part of LBI) that we used to call Helsgate because it was near a tidal marsh and you couldn't get out of your car without being attacked by flies. Now we see very few.
The traps look like boxes. I am not sure exactly how they work, but apparently the USDA has a brochure called "How to Control House and Stable Flies (Dog Flies) without Using Pesticides" and the above article also has many references to articles about these traps.

https://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9502&L=dairynew&P=392

This is an excerpt of the USDA brochure. I have yet to find that one on-line yet.

The traps along with controlling what attracts the flies in the first place sounds like a great strategy!

Pitching this to the local government and residents as an alternative to pesticide sounds like a plan.

Everyone who's still remotely tuned in :blush: , think about this:

The FDA regulates what goes into products, but not what chemical reactions occur from two (or more) "safe" chemicals once combined in a product.

For example:
A & B are "safe" chemicals on their own. The have the GRAS label on them. (Generally Regarded As Safe)
C is a known toxin. It is not allowed to be used the the formulation.
So the company adds chemical A & chemical B to the product. But the combination of the A & B into this product (& the chemical reaction that occurs) now make chemical C, which is a known toxin. But, now it is allowed because it is not regulated by the FDA, only the original chemicals were regulated.

This is a loophole the size of Texas. These chemical reactions occur in things like pesticides and in products used daily, like the creme you lovingly put on your face at night to prevent wrinkles. But there's nothing we can do about it....

Or can we? We can choose to go the safer route. We might not understand all the ins and outs of everything, but as long as we know that we are making better decisions, then we have a fighting chance of not opening Pandora's box in regards to the known or unknown side effects of these chemicals that we are told are safe and non-toxic.

Each of us has a choice. It doesn't mean that we will always get it right or do the right thing, but at least we're trying to get it instead of just giving in to what someone else says just because it's easier.

As I understand it, the skinprick test measures IgE reactions and is thus pretty good at teasing out hypersensitivity to common allergens (molds, pollens, cockroach, dust mites, dander, nuts, etc). It is cheap, convenient and uses a control to help validate results. That said, it is imperfect...I have seen people develop a nice wheal to tree nuts even though they ate them routinely, but all in all, it is a worthwhile test. That ELISA/ACT measures other antibodies that are not commonly thought to contribute to 'allergies' as we understand them, and it runs a small army of antigens guaranteeing some sort of 'result' that is of questionable import (except to the guy who owns the lab who will then try to sell you all manner of product to detoxify and live a shiny happy life!);-)

And since when is it abnormal for kids to have runny noses?:lol:

OM-What are some toxic products that take advantage of the FDA loophole?:drink:

Tupelo-STILL waiting to know which artificial sweetener is toxic and at what concentration:popcorn:

As I understand it, the skinprick test measures IgE reactions and is (except to the guy who owns the lab who will then try to sell you all manner of product to detoxify and live a shiny happy life!);-)

And since when is it abnormal for kids to have runny noses?:lol:

OM-What are some toxic products that take advantage of the FDA loophole?:drink:

Tupelo-STILL waiting to know which artificial sweetener is toxic and at what concentration:popcorn:

Shiny happy life? As in poo-poo that slides out happily & easily? :lolabove: :lolabove: :lolabove:

Not a runny nose like this one.... it was GGGRRRROOOSSSSSSSS and it never stopped!!!!!

Get back to you manana about the rest. Mr. OM is home and this is our date time. I'm off for the night!

Maybe y'all can help me figure this out. I have tomato plants in old whiskey barrels (2 years out of the distillery, so they were pretty aromatic last year). They are producing fruit that are the size of OMBs when I see them one day and double in size in a few days. There are so many! I have not fed or sprayed them with anything.

I wonder if the mosquito spray gave them some sort of unatural growth spurt?:idontno: Or do you think it is the bourbon leaching out of the wood? Can they be considered organic if raised on leached bourbon?;-)

Maybe y'all can help me figure this out. I have tomato plants in old whiskey barrels (2 years out of the distillery, so they were pretty aromatic last year). They are producing fruit that are the size of OMBs when I see them one day and double in size in a few days. There are so many! I have not fed or sprayed them with anything.

I wonder if the mosquito spray gave them some sort of unatural growth spurt?:idontno: Or do you think it is the bourbon leaching out of the wood? Can they be considered organic if raised on leached bourbon?;-)

Who cares. Just send me some. :lol:

Skunky, I read your post about wanting to share the comparisons of the bell curve with us for the life span of humans vs the bell curve of application of pesticides. I am curious to see how the bell curve of reported cases of cancer compares to the the application of the pesticides as well.

Finally, a quick comment regarding the evils of allopathic cures versus 'natural remedies';I can't think of ANY industry as poorly regulated as the natural remedy market. Essentially, as long as they put a statement on the label that they do not promise to 'diagnose or cure' any condition as well as 'these satements have not been evaluated by the FDA' , they can bottle and sell just about anything. Go on and look in your medicine cabinet, all the bottles are labeled as such. I will contend until the day I die that there is nothing 'safe' about some herbal remedy whose source, purity, manufacture, content, efficacy and understanding of long term implications of use are not regulated by anyone other than the manufacturer. Yet, the 'herbs' are 'natural', ergo safer. That makes zero sense to me. :idontno:

I am so glad you brought this up, Skunky. The natural food and vitamin industry has been trying to get the FDA to test their products for years, but they, unlike the pharmaceutical industry, do not have high powered lobbyists getting paid HUGE bucks. The pharmaceutical companies don't want you to eat healthy foods, because the pharmaceutical companies would lose billions, with a b, dollars in sales. I think the studies on marijuana would fall into this category, too. It seems that anytime the medicinal benefits of marijuana are brought up in the health industry, the gov't steps in and says that they don't have studies supporting the benefits. Hello, that might be because they are not allowing the studies to be conducted, "because marijuana is illegal." Give me a break. They will let the pharmaceutical companies test all kinds of crazy drugs like Oxycontin, but they won't allow studies on marijuana because it is illegal.:idontno: You do the math. They will allow studies on THC, the beneficial chemical in marijuana, but that is only because the pharmaceutical companies make it. Follow the money trail, and you will find pharmaceutical companies, not vitamin companies and soap makers.

Who cares. Just send me some. :lol:

Green OMBs or red tomatoes?:idontno: