Security on 30-A Beaches

I like it here just fine, thanks!

Isn't this suppose to be an exchange of ideas instead of telling people what to stick to? or where to stick it (as some would have it?) ....

It is the lack of understanding of the issue that truly creates the friction and resulting actions you describe in your first post. Some understand but won't admit it...some don't have a clue.

It's hard not to like a surfer dude.

But being one doesn't grant one the right to trespass on anyone's private property. Their suggestion that everyone should break the law is disappointing. I know a lot is said here in jest, but this is a serious topic.

By the way, someone's comparing this topic to Rosa Parks is a true insult to the struggle for everyone's civil rights.

Like it or not, it IS an issue. The fact you choose to side with property owners is fine. But the way you go about it is....a little questionable.

No one here is taking sides. I think people are trying to get it clear in thier minds exactly what the law is, how it's enforced, and what the rights are for both the owner and the "squatter."

So....lighten up, Francis.

Some of the deeds and original plats are about as clear as mud as to who owns what. Even lawyers will tell you that. On top of that, "private ownership" of Gulf Front properties which extend to the mean high water mark, is so random, a normal person standing on the beach with a parcel map marked with those properties, would still find it fairly difficult to determine which parcel is which. So, I say prove which is which.

SJ, it is VERY CLEAR when a deed shows the southern border as a line that "meanders" along the MHWL. The deeds I have seen clearly show this.

Now, everyone pretty much agrees that the beach has eroded to some degree. This would most likely put this (19 year average) MHW line in the water.

The side property lines on the beach of many gulf front properties are just an extension of the lines above the dunes.

Knowing the above, would you still force a homeowner to prove to you that their property is private?

Here's how this would work...
You go on someone's beach. They call the sheriff. If the sheriff does not know for sure that the property is private, the county (code enforcement) would get involved. Once it is established as private, you will be told not to trespass again. The next time, the sheriff knows for sure if that part of the beach is public or private.

Do you really want to tie up county resources everytime you think the beach is public when you could otherwise use a little common sense?

I guarantee you if owners are "forced" to get MHWL surveys because of a perceived arrogance on the public's part, you can kiss the typical "turn a blind-eye" toward people on private beach good-bye.... i.e. ruin it for everyone else.

A lot, no everything, hinges on the Florida State Supreme Court at the moment. If they rule against the "SOB"s, then the above is a moot point (at least seaward of the new erosion control line, ECL). If they rule for the property owner, well....

I have a question for all. In cases where a beach is rebuilt as part of a federal beach restoration project, all of the area that received sand from the dune out into the water is included in a public use easement for 50 years. Considering the County is working in this direction for the next 12.9 mile project, how does the board think the project will move through? Do you think the actual construction of 12.9 miles will be reduced by those that don't like the trade-off of completely accessible beaches for beach restoration?

SJ, it is VERY CLEAR when a deed shows the southern border as a line that "meanders" along the MHWL. The deeds I have seen clearly show this.

Now, everyone pretty much agrees that the beach has eroded to some degree. This would most likely put this (19 year average) MHW line in the water.

The side property lines on the beach of many gulf front properties are just an extension of the lines above the dunes.

Knowing the above, would you still force a homeowner to prove to you that their property is private?

Here's how this would work...
You go on someone's beach. They call the sheriff. If the sheriff does not know for sure that the property is private, the county (code enforcement) would get involved. Once it is established as private, you will be told not to trespass again. The next time, the sheriff knows for sure if that part of the beach is public or private.

Do you really want to tie up county resources everytime you think the beach is public when you could otherwise use a little common sense?

I guarantee you if owners are "forced" to get MHWL surveys because of a perceived arrogance on the public's part, you can kiss the typical "turn a blind-eye" toward people on private beach good-bye.... i.e. ruin it for everyone else.

A lot, no everything, hinges on the Florida State Supreme Court at the moment. If they rule against the "SOB"s, then the above is a moot point (at least seaward of the new erosion control line, ECL). If they rule for the property owner, well....

This location averaging is a misunderstanding of the actual process for identifying a Mean High Water line. The location of MHW line is not averaged over 19 years, the Mean High Water ELEVATION is based on tide gauge data. It is irrespective of any shoreline location. What this means from a practical standpoint is that a surveyor at any time can go to the FLORIDA DEP LABINS website and look up the applicable elevation, which is 1.06 ft NGVD in most cases for Walton County. Then the surveyor goes out to the beach and locates that elevation on the beach. For a property, they can locate it on each southern corner and the line that would connect those two points would be the MHW line and thus the property boundary location for that day. This is very easy for a surveyor to do and there are specific guidelines on how it is done.

Do you really want to tie up county resources everytime you think the beach is public .......

Why not, I see it as an abuse/waste of county resources that the Sheriff is being involved in non-nuisance "trespassing".

This location averaging is a misunderstanding of the actual process for identifying a Mean High Water line. The location of MHW line is not averaged over 19 years, the Mean High Water ELEVATION is based on tide gauge data. It is irrespective of any shoreline location. What this means from a practical standpoint is that a surveyor at any time can go to the FLORIDA DEP LABINS website and look up the applicable elevation, which is 1.06 ft NGVD in most cases for Walton County. Then the surveyor goes out to the beach and locates that elevation on the beach. For a property, they can locate it on each southern corner and the line that would connect those two points would be the MHW line and thus the property boundary location for that day. This is very easy for a surveyor to do and there are specific guidelines on how it is done.

BeachSiO2, It looks like you're correct on how the MHW Line is established (gotta love the internet)....

"...the boundary between private property and public trust lands was the mean high tide line (MHW) defined as the intersection of the plane of mean high water with the shore. The plane of mean high tide was defined as the average of all high water elevations observed over an 18.6 year period or Tidal Epoch. "

This is much easier for me to grasp than my original notion. Your point is the line can change day to day based or erosion or accretion. So basically the private property ends "at the wet sand" when it is high tide (more or less), i.e. the first post in this thread "...sit in the "wet sand" or I would have to leave."

Thanks for setting me straight.

Since only recently, Gulf-front land owners have began hiring the security and or posting signs of "private beach." If they have not defended this property up until now, and the public has been using it in the past, do you have any idea on how a Judge or jury would rule on it being public vs private?

How does that work? Are they there 24/7? Do they call the sheriff's dept. once they encounter someone who doesn't leave if they tell them to? How much authority do they have or are they being used mainly as a deterrant?

.

.............
This is much easier for me to grasp than my original notion. Your point is the line can change day to day based or erosion or accretion. So basically the private property ends "at the wet sand" when it is high tide (more or less), i.e. the first post in this thread "...sit in the "wet sand" or I would have to leave."

Thanks for setting me straight.

This would mean one would not have to sit in the wet sand unless it was high tide, correct? (Of course unless they preferred the wet sand anyway.;-) )

Basically, they sorta have to have an idea where the high tide "line" would be.

.

The private beaches are only part of the problem. Once they receive dredged sand, that portion is public. But all along the beach, the parking limits your access to it. On 30a you pass many access points with limited or no parking.
PARKING EQUALS ACCESS!
The green shirt timeshare crowd is just the latest example of greedy people who want an empty beach to welcome their next visit. All along the beachfront corporate beach has been eliminating parking, unnoticed by most.
Surfrider foundation believes that the ocean is ours! Access to it should not be limited to the wealthy or the tourist.
Come join us at Grayton today at 6 PM.

Clean water is good for your soul!

Will there be Free BobbyJ t-shirts available for purchase?

Will there be Free BobbyJ t-shirts available for purchase?

Just don't abbreviate too much ..................... could cause a different kind of stir if sowallers started wearing "free bj" shirts :rolling:

SJ, it is VERY CLEAR when a deed shows the southern border as a line that "meanders" along the MHWL. The deeds I have seen clearly show this.

Now, everyone pretty much agrees that the beach has eroded to some degree. This would most likely put this (19 year average) MHW line in the water.

The side property lines on the beach of many gulf front properties are just an extension of the lines above the dunes.

Knowing the above, would you still force a homeowner to prove to you that their property is private?

Some deeds are very clear, but some are not. Some places where the property was deeded to the County, was done so only if the County maintained the property. In some cases where this language occurs, the property has not been been maintained if you ask the landowners in the area. Show me the deed, show me the survey. The MHW line varies, so show me your corner markers.

My question is do YOU want to tie up the Sheriff's Dept? In most cases, the public has been using the beach as public, since Grayton Beach was settled. I'm not a lawyer, but I bet a good attorney could argue that because the beach has been used publicly for such a long time, without objection by the homeowners to the north, the public has some rights to the beach.

Just don't abbreviate too much ..................... could cause a different kind of stir if sowallers started wearing "free bj" shirts :rolling:

I was wondering where I could get one of those "free Bj" shirts. I guess I just have too much rebel in me. The beaches have always been for everyones enjoyment in my eyes. I think the more the beach front owners make a big deal out of this (HIRING SECURITY TO MOVE FOLKS OFF THE BEACH), the more problems they will have. Especially when our tax dollars start fixing "their" back yard. If I owned beach front property I would not want to be the one caught up leading the fight to remove people from my beach! If I was, I would not want locals to know which house was mine... I think we have a new 30A rule. ;-)

Just don't abbreviate too much ..................... could cause a different kind of stir if sowallers started wearing "free bj" shirts :rolling:

:lolabove: :lolabove:

Not sure how many of you are actual homeowners in this area, but thought I would give just a little bit of insight from the ?other side?. I have a home at Miramar beach on a private road (that my neighbors and I pay for and maintain) which has a ?private beach? that was originally acquired in 1948 as part of the purchase and for which a price was paid. Our home owners association is responsible for this part of the beach much like common ground that one finds in other neighborhoods. This requires us to pay taxes to the county for that portion of the beach down to the high tide line. We also must carry liability insurance for this portion of the beach.

I, like most of you, have always felt inclined to let the beach be used for the common good and I can assure you that neither I nor my neighbors ever go out and chase people off our deeded portion of the beach. Our houses happen to be situated next to ?camping on the Gulf? and we have always looked the other way as people would migrate from the camp ground past the camp ground?s own beach and plop their tents and canopies down on our portion of the beach. We have posted one sign as required by our attorney that this portion of the beach is private and of course the daily mass of campers simply ignore the sign as they haul their boats, tents and fishing gear over to ?our? portion of the beach. Often times I am sitting with my family on the beach with an umbrella up looking at the water when sure enough a group from the campground plops their huge canopy up right in front of us (between us and the water) drag out the ole boom box and proceed to gulp 3 cases of beer (generalization of course). Often times kids are out swimming and some good old boy will bring out two or three fishing poles and start casting with bait fish right amongst the swimmers (brilliant).

This is pretty much a daily occurrence during the summer and as I have said we don?t go out and hassle them or anything. Basically we look the other way. As a reward for this behavior, we always have the opportunity to go down to the beach at sunset (I love it then) and start picking up the trash. Beer cans, diapers, cups, broken beach chairs, etc etc. My favorite is when a ?camper? digs a 4 foot hole in the sand and leaves it so that someone can fall in it that night while ?crabbing?. Guess who that unlucky person is going to sue?

But as I say, we try to be good and neighborly about it. This spring we had a group migrate down the beach to our portion of it with two kegs of beer and a stereo system that rivaled a Led Zepplein concert. We did say something to that group and yes that was one time the sheriff was called.

I am always puzzled as to where all of these people are after a big hurricane like Opal when the beach is full of appliances and junk and needs to be cleaned up. No one is around to help clean it up which is also our responsibility. Obviously we are glad to do this as it is the right thing to do.

Just thought I would give you a small perspective from one who gets to deal with the public use of the beach which as I have said we gladly share. Hope to see all of you on the beach particularly after July 4th. I?ll be the guy picking up the trash and fire works off the sand.

Some deeds are very clear, but some are not. Some places where the property was deeded to the County, was done so only if the County maintained the property. In some cases where this language occurs, the property has not been been maintained if you ask the landowners in the area. Show me the deed, show me the survey. The MHW line varies, so show me your corner markers.

My question is do YOU want to tie up the Sheriff's Dept? In most cases, the public has been using the beach as public, since Grayton Beach was settled. I'm not a lawyer, but I bet a good attorney could argue that because the beach has been used publicly for such a long time, without objection by the homeowners to the north, the public has some rights to the beach.

What are the laws on adverse possession in Florida? I'm from Arkansas.

Also, at least where we go in Seagrove Beach, it is pretty easy to tell where the high water line is from the last high tide. You can look at the erosion in most places and guess that the high water mark is a few feet north of that..

Seacliffes, that was a great post.

Uncaring tourists are hard enough on the beaches. I can only imagine how bad the ones are who frequent Camping on the Gulf.

My sympathies.

Good post Seacliffes!

Seacliffes,

In Arkansas, a sign would not be enough to protect your land from adverse possession.

seacliffes,

Thank you for your thoughtful post...so sad how a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch. I can tell you struggle with this problem. You might send us some pics of this so we can truly understand the nastiness you are dealing with.