Led away in Handcuffs

some personal observations i made yesterday:

-the access at the inn at blue mtn has a beach flag at that location. i believe it is maintained by the swfd. can anyone confirm?

-private property signs are not posted along the eastern and western sides of beach at "the retreat."

-trashcans, maintained by the tdc (tourist development council) are located at two entrances to "the retreat," as well as the inn at blue mountain, and white cliffs.

- private property signs on the inn at blue mountain and white cliffs, are at least fifty feet from the water's edge, as though only the upper portion of beach is the part which they are marking as private.

-the news story is on the beach, not here. for you reporters, there is plenty of action on the beach at the inn at blue mountain. their security guard is having chats with many people, and you can often find a sheriff's deputy on four wheeler at that location.

-there is plenty of wet sand and some nice sand bars in front of "the retreat" on which you might enjoy "the beach." Closest public entrance might be goatfeathers location if you also plan on parking. ;-)

- the property in "the retreat" on the western side of the beach, marked as "conservation easement" on the plat, has a few signs which appear to be identical to the gov't signs (public, used on private property) with the bottom cut off, warning people to stay off the dunes. They may have purchased them. I would want to know if they are using public funds for protection of private property.

- the retreat hired what appears to be an out of shape 300 pound black man as security. i'm old and cripple, but i think i could outrun him.

- after walking down to draper lake from the access at cr83, i'm reminded why i no longer enjoy going to blue mountain.

- since people walk no farther than they need to in order to enjoy the beach, "the retreat" is probably the least likely to have people sit on their property. most of the action seems to be at the inn at blue mtn and white cliffs.

-bella vita is packed with people on their little strip of beach (not sure if it is private), with the tackiest beach umbrellas. makes me want to




i wish someone from the tdc could tell me why we have public trashcans on private property. i am stuck on the one reason being that it must be used often by the public. i'm am very much in favor of trashcan availability, but if these want to keep everyone out, i say let them pick up their own garbage.

BTW, if all three of you guys go and get yourselves arrested, Dave will still have his business. Will you other two be able to keep your real estate license?

For sitting on the beach which has been used by the public for many years? I don't think I would have a problem keeping my license.


I doubt Dave's liquor license would be at risk for a simple charge of tresspass, especially if the Courts rule in his favor.

BMBV, Dave's business caters to more non-owners of The Retreat, Inn at Blue Mtn, and White Cliffs, than it does owners. If the public grows tired of six rows of umbrellas on small patches of sand, they will stop coming to SoWal altogether. Dave has every right to object if he feels the need to do so.

Sage advice. What does concern me, however, is news will spread of the hard line approach being taken and all of a sudden, a light bulb goes off in the heads of individual gulf front property owners. Then we'll see an epidemic of people who are set up in front of individual residences being asked to move.

I think these three properties will be seeing many more people over the next few months, than they would if they didn't try to kick people off the beach.

I think if something isn't done immediately regarding this situation, more beaches in SoWal will be in jeopardy in the near future.

If everyone brought just a chair or a towel or a single beach umbrella, the beach would be one-fourth as crowded. But no, the standard now is to bring a tent that can cover a dozen people. If you look at the tents, most have empty chairs under them. A lot of the tent-pitchers set up at the crack of dawn, or even worse, they leave their tents up day-and-night all week. Many of the tent pitchers have additional chairs that they set up at water's edge. Two or four people now use the space of 15-20. The eroded and narrower beach only aggravates the problem. It begins to take on the look of a gypsy caravan that's settled into an oasis.

So when your average tourist strolls down to the beach at 10 or 11 in the morning, there's nowhere to go. That's the problem I had when I rented at the Inn at Blue Mountain the week of the 4th.

Perhaps a ban on tent pitching, or at least overnight tents, would help alleviate much of the congestion and bickering.

I think that no tents is a great solution to relieve overcrowding, but would be hard to publicize and enforce!

I was under the impression that nothing was allowed on the beach overnight anyway.

When I looked at the picture I saw space for many low impact and tent free scooterbugs, not the SUV type beachgoer who takes more to the beach than I pack when evacuating for a hurricane ;-).

I am not a lawyer, but there are other States that have determined that past conveyances or grants of "sand" granted for private purposes violates the public trust doctrines.

I sincerely believe and hope that at some point, there will be a precedent setting case that will enable the Supreme Court to enact that "private sand" beaches that have been enjoyed historically in the past by, as you put it, us "commoners", can continue to do so without violation.

BTW, just curious, do gulf front owners pay real estate taxes on the deeded beach portion? if not, I would say that it's unconstitutional for the public to be denied access to the sand when taxes are not being personally made on by the owners of such.

Mango, I guess I should have added those other states to my option of moving to Costa Rica.

I am confused as the next person why there is such a disparity from state to state. But it will obviously take more than just telling Florida gulf front owners, "Hey, give up your rights because South Carolina (or whatever) does so".

Let me PLEASE clarify an important item here and now:
When I used the words "common person", I was referring to EACH AND EVERYONE OF US in as much as we all have equal rights...nothing more and nothing less. And that "popular opinion" should not infringe on the rights of the "common person" guaranteed under the Constitution.

Please do not misunderstand or interpret this as anything else.

Basically I agree with what you're saying. That is it will take a supreme court ruling to change the way gulf front property is now deeded ON A BLANKET basis. Walton County could presently take the Retreat to court and prove historic public access (however it is defined). If Walton County were successful, the Retreat's beachfront would become public. It hasn't happened yet. These things must run their course (if they run at all). In the meantime, the beach is private.

To answer your question about property tax, from my personal experience, there is no difference between gulf front and inland property. The fact that the sandy part of the beach is included in many gulf front deeds doesn't change how the owner is taxed (just more of course ;-) ).

Is this the beach in question that is suppose to be private?

I was just curious, because it looks as if a majority of the umbrellas are from a service. I would think they would know if they can set up on private property or not.

Good observation ktschris. I think you are right. It appears that these umbrella's are set up in clumps perhaps behind maybe condos and are used to service their guest. The tents look like they are set up mostly behind the chairs.

Exactly WHERE was this photo taken?

BTW - BMBV - If you are going to quote me, them please make sure it is MY quote. I did not make that statement. To answer your question, it is not my place to speculate what happens to this area in 10 years.

Look a little closer at the picture Yippie and you might get a clue about the problem. If everyone brought just a chair or a towel or a single beach umbrella, the beach would be one-fourth as crowded. But no, the standard now is to bring a tent that can cover a dozen people. If you look at the tents, most have empty chairs under them. A lot of the tent-pitchers set up at the crack of dawn, or even worse, they leave their tents up day-and-night all week. Many of the tent pitchers have additional chairs that they set up at water's edge. Two or four people now use the space of 15-20. The eroded and narrower beach only aggravates the problem. It begins to take on the look of a gypsy caravan that's settled into an oasis.

Perhaps a ban on tent pitching, or at least overnight tents, would help alleviate much of the congestion and bickering.

I have seen that as a problem for many years now. I have pointed out on numerous occasions, the Walton County Code of Ordinances which states that it is illegal for tents to be on the beach overnight. To try and add more laws, simply because the existing laws are not being enforced, is not the answer. Perhaps a better answer would be to have the Code Enforcement enforce the rules.

From the TDC's website:

Blue Wave Certified
Beaches of South Walton represents the nation's best beaches with its miles of unspoiled shoreline and natural habitat. In March 2004, the destination demonstrated how it practices correct beach management techniques by hosting the first Sustainable Beaches Summit sponsored by the Clean Beaches Council (CBC). Beaches of South Walton inaugural event gathered beach professionals and coastal educators from federal agencies, state and local governments, academia and industry together to discuss the preservation of the nation's beaches and how to manage our natural resources. Beaches of South Walton was selected to host the event because of its innovative beach maintenance and nourishment programs to protect and preserve its natural resources.

In order to be Blue Wave certified, applicants must meet the program?s criteria for water quality, beach and intertidal conditions, services, habitat conservation, erosion management, public information and education. Beaches that meet these criteria receive the Blue Wave flag, which is prominently displayed beachside.


The Blue Wave Campaign is a "good housekeeping" stamp of approval for beaches. It helps the beach-going public identify well-managed beaches when planning vacations and also protects beach environments and public health.



Beaches of South Walton also holds the designation as the only destination in the country to have all 26 miles of coastline certified as "Blue Wave," an environmental seal of approval from the
Clean Beaches Council.


**************************

My question, who applied for the Blue Wave designation for the entire Gulf Coast of Walton County? All 26 miles of the beach was certified as Blue Wave. If the beaches are privately owned in many cases, it seems to me that the TDC had no business applying for the entire stretch of Walton County.

The county has notified vendors of setups that it will start enforcing the ban against overnight stuff next week. Applies to private tents, also.

I'll take a shot at post #122. Tona-Rama means that this, " an open, notorious, continuous and uninterrupted use of the beach by the public,
in derogation of the upland p r o p r i e t o r s 'r i g h t s , for a period of twenty years, or for any period" has to be proved up on a case by case basis. The problem is then that each "case" will have to define it again and again for that particular beach, unless some other lawsuit results in a definition that applies everywhere. The fact is that it isn't clear to anybody what that phrase means, "open, notorious, continuous," etc. It's going to take a lawsuit to find out. Tona-Rama was not the definitive lawsuit.

At one time a few years ago the Walton Count Commission discussed adding a preamble to the beach ordinance asserting the public's right to use all the dry sand beaches in the county. In the discussion they wrote a preamble and agreed to defend it in court, all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary. Then there was an election and under the new commission the preamble disappeared. It seems from the TDC's FAQ's that this commission is not interested in solving this problem, which IMHO will only get worse.

All the deeds do not extend to the MHW. The deeds in Old Seagrove from around the Wheelhouse to Seaside do not extend to the water, except for a few that mysteriously do now. Some of the deeds in Blue Mountain don't extend to the water either. So it is even more complicated - if you want to know whether you are on a "public" beach or not you really need to see the deed.

.....Exactly WHERE was this photo taken?

BTW - BMBV - If you are going to quote me, them please make sure it is MY quote. I did not make that statement. To answer your question, it is not my place to speculate what happens to this area in 10 years.

Photo taken looking west - picks up Bella Vita and Adagio.

You're right. Someone else said "...someone sitting on one patch of sand does not prevent someone else from using another nearby patch", not you. Honest mistake.

What you said:
"Fourth of July weekend is the buisest weekend of the year. There wasn't a beach in Florida that looked any different. Leave it to you to post that photo and expect ANYONE to believe it is like that all the time. If you can' take a few holiday weekends of the year, then you are living in the wrong place. Maybe a place that doesn't cater to tourism would be better for you."

Thanks.

I have seen that as a problem for many years now. I have pointed out on numerous occasions, the Walton County Code of Ordinances which states that it is illegal for tents to be on the beach overnight. To try and add more laws, simply because the existing laws are not being enforced, is not the answer. Perhaps a better answer would be to have the Code Enforcement enforce the rules.

Does this rule apply to owners on their private property?

Does this rule apply to owners on their private property?

I will have to look it up again to be certain, but I believe it makes no distinction of ownership of the property.

-trashcans, maintained by the tdc (tourist development council) are located at two entrances to "the retreat," as well as the inn at blue mountain, and white cliffs.
...

i wish someone from the tdc could tell me why we have public trashcans on private property. i am stuck on the one reason being that it must be used often by the public. i'm am very much in favor of trashcan availability, but if these want to keep everyone out, i say let them pick up their own garbage.

I was wondering the same thing. see attachment

The county has notified vendors of setups that it will start enforcing the ban against overnight stuff next week. Applies to private tents, also.

I'll take a shot at post #122. Tona-Rama means that this, " an open, notorious, continuous and uninterrupted use of the beach by the public,
in derogation of the upland p r o p r i e t o r s 'r i g h t s , for a period of twenty years, or for any period" has to be proved up on a case by case basis. The problem is then that each "case" will have to define it again and again for that particular beach, unless some other lawsuit results in a definition that applies everywhere. The fact is that it isn't clear to anybody what that phrase means, "open, notorious, continuous," etc. It's going to take a lawsuit to find out. Tona-Rama was not the definitive lawsuit.

At one time a few years ago the Walton Count Commission discussed adding a preamble to the beach ordinance asserting the public's right to use all the dry sand beaches in the county. In the discussion they wrote a preamble and agreed to defend it in court, all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary. Then there was an election and under the new commission the preamble disappeared. It seems from the TDC's FAQ's that this commission is not interested in solving this problem, which IMHO will only get worse.

All the deeds do not extend to the MHW. The deeds in Old Seagrove from around the Wheelhouse to Seaside do not extend to the water, except for a few that mysteriously do now. Some of the deeds in Blue Mountain don't extend to the water either. So it is even more complicated - if you want to know whether you are on a "public" beach or not you really need to see the deed.

Very interesting post. Thanks.

A couple of questions, do you think the elimination of the "preamble" was due to maybe advice from legal consultants that the commissioners would not be able to enforce it? I really have no idea.

Can you name or describe a property or two in Blue Mountain Beach that you say does not own up to the MHWL?

Yes, the rule applies to private property. The county can regulate the beaches even when they are privately owned. It really isn't any different from other private property. Government makes lots of laws regulating what you can and cannot do on your property.

I only have an opinion about what happened to the preamble. I don't think it had anything to do with legal enforcement, though. The idea was to put that preamble in there knowing full well it would end up in court. In other words, the county was poised to bring the lawsuit we need now, the one that will be definitive. They lost the political will.
Sure, the beachfront properties along Blue Mountain Road east of the public access at the foot of CR83.

I was wondering the same thing. see attachment

SJ, I know garbage on the beach is a pet peeve of yours. I agree.

I'm sure you are aware that many of the tourists in this area are from gulf front properties. They also pay the 4% "tourist tax" along with the 7% state and local tax. So if a tourist pays $2000 a week for condo or home, $80 is charged for just being a tourist each and every week. And for many owners, garbage service is the only "direct" benefit received. That's a lot of money. Garbage cans are the least TDC can provide in return as gulf front private property owners normally have their own beach access and do not depend on county accesses.

Of course TDC provides marketing and such. But that's part of the problem according to Darwin.

So why would you even be questioning the "good stuff"?;-)

Smiling Joe, Bobby J, Dave Rauschkolb and some of the others:


Bobby J, you talk up a good rally cry but you haven't addressed, at least what I believe to be, very pertinent issues as to what constitutes "public use".


BTW, if all three of you guys go and get yourselves arrested, Dave will still have his business. Will you other two be able to keep your real estate license?

This is not the first time you have been worried about my RE Lic. It is not always about money for me. How about you? Public use... See Dave's quote... Owning the beach is like trying to own the sky. The beaches are fall all of us to enjoy. I would favor for the court findings of past public use:
Court cases have found that the public has the right to the dry sand parts of beaches in two instances:

• One is if the public has established a “prescriptive easement,” using a particular beach for the past 20 years without objection from private landowners.
• The other is through “customary use,” which is the “ancient,” peaceful use of the beach by the public.

Can you name or describe a property or two in Blue Mountain Beach that you say does not own up to the MHWL?

parcel id 12-3S-20-34000-001-0032

and all lots in Blks 10-13 Blue Mtn Beach S/D

SJ, I know garbage on the beach is a pet peeve of yours. I agree.

I'm sure you are aware that many of the tourists in this area are from gulf front properties. They also pay the 4% "tourist tax" along with the 7% state and local tax. So if a tourist pays $2000 a week for condo or home, $80 is charged for just being a tourist each and every week. And for many owners, garbage service is the only "direct" benefit received. That's a lot of money. Garbage cans are the least TDC can provide in return as gulf front private property owners normally have their own beach access and do not depend on county accesses.

Of course TDC provides marketing and such. But that's part of the problem according to Darwin.

So why would you even be questioning the "good stuff"?;-)

I agree aboutthe TDC providing adequate garbage cans, but not on private property, unless the public will be using them. My thought is that if the TDC monitors it just as the rest of the public beach, it too, is considered public. By the way, most homes, if not all, in The Retreat are not rentals, so there is no bed tax involved in those.

Photo taken looking west - picks up Bella Vita and Adagio.

You're right. Someone else said "...someone sitting on one patch of sand does not prevent someone else from using another nearby patch", not you. Honest mistake.

What you said:
"Fourth of July weekend is the buisest weekend of the year. There wasn't a beach in Florida that looked any different. Leave it to you to post that photo and expect ANYONE to believe it is like that all the time. If you can' take a few holiday weekends of the year, then you are living in the wrong place. Maybe a place that doesn't cater to tourism would be better for you."

Thanks.

You're welcome.

So the photo was taken of private property behind the two condos? The beach service set it up and their guest were using it.

I don't really see where that applies to this forum. Understanding a photo of a crowded beach, but it was not a public beach and I don't remember either of these places mentioned with any type of incident.

I don't really see where that applies to this forum. Understanding a photo of a crowded beach, but it was not a public beach and I don't remember either of these places mentioned with any type of incident.

That little stretch is so littered with beach umbrellas that no one wants to sit there. Most of the chairs are empty most of the day.

BMBV, I still don't see many people set up in front of your house. Have you been throwing sticky Gummy Bears at them?

SJ, I know garbage on the beach is a pet peeve of yours. I agree.

I'm sure you are aware that many of the tourists in this area are from gulf front properties. They also pay the 4% "tourist tax" along with the 7% state and local tax. So if a tourist pays $2000 a week for condo or home, $80 is charged for just being a tourist each and every week. And for many owners, garbage service is the only "direct" benefit received. That's a lot of money. Garbage cans are the least TDC can provide in return as gulf front private property owners normally have their own beach access and do not depend on county accesses.

Of course TDC provides marketing and such. But that's part of the problem according to Darwin.

So why would you even be questioning the "good stuff"?;-)

As far as I know, it is illegal to use public money for private gain. In Okaloosa County, garbage cans are not paid for on private property, only at public beach accesses. I believe the money the homeonwer makes on renting out these beach front properties would well cover a private trash service.

You're welcome.

So the photo was taken of private property behind the two condos? The beach service set it up and their guest were using it.

I don't really see where that applies to this forum. Understanding a photo of a crowded beach, but it was not a public beach and I don't remember either of these places mentioned with any type of incident.

First, beach service can be requested by private property owners. I don't see any relevance here with all the talk regarding beach service. Perhaps you could explain why this subject continues to pop up.

Second, as I've already said, someone else posted "...someone sitting on one patch of sand does not prevent someone else from using another nearby patch."

I just thought I would show that the beach can get a little crowded and that finding a "nearby patch" of sand could be difficult at times. What better than a photograph?

Does this clear things up?

That little stretch is so littered with beach umbrellas that no one wants to sit there. Most of the chairs are empty most of the day.

BMBV, I still don't see many people set up in front of your house. Have you been throwing sticky Gummy Bears at them?

Nope.

Amazing what wearing a thong and pressing yourself up against a sliding door will do!!