Led away in Handcuffs

BeachSiO2,
I'm not sure that I follow correctly. I was informed that the flags on private property are maintained by the private property owners. Is that incorrect?



(and please don't think that I'm against public safety and public trash collection. I use these examples only to show bits of the reasons why I think the public has the right to use the beaches.)

It is my understanding that there are two types of flagpoles out there, some changed by SWFD and maintained by the County (public), and some changed by private individuals. The public set that is changed by SWFD are on both private and public property. The easiest way to tell is if they have the number on them like the one at the Beach Club, then they are changed by SWFD.

thanks for the clarification.

new property owner here (not on the beach) -- been reading this thread for the past few days. My property documents state that we have deeded beach access --and indeed there we have a walkover to the beach for our use not far from a county maintained walkover.

I'm curious about my right to use the beach (dry or wet). Any guidance? If it helps -- we live in the Seabreeze community.

Thanks

Typically if you have documents stating you have deeded access to the beach, the beachfront owners are part of your subdivision/developement and are likewise bound by similar legal documents & covenants. Couldn't hurt to double check though. If you do not a copy of the covenants or restrictions (should have been provided as part of due diligence), you can check on the Walton County Clerk of Courts website.

http://clerkofcourts.co.walton.fl.us/

Go to the menu at the left edge and choose "public records" and then "official records".

Many neighborhoods have beach accesses and even supposedly deeded beach access, but the "rights" you have can be unclear and will all depend on how the law is interpreted or how your neighborhood is set up. It's a big can of worms.

speaking of infrastructure...

while the powers that be BARELY communicate with full-time residents, imagine the frustration at being a visitor here?

having been here during one hurricane as a visitor, no matter who i tried to call or speak with i couldn't get any information about evacuation or when it was safe to return; from the development to the county government or any number i called. i was able to find the numbers ONLY by using my computer as we couldn't find a phone book in ourrental unit and there was no concierge or front desk.

NOW, the chamber of commerce has made it clear that because of over development and overcrowded evacuation routes, you may not be able to safely evacuate IN TIME if it's anything over a tropical storm. well, people who are visiting here don't know that. that's not the usual situation for hurricane evacuations, and they're not going to have medical supplies, generators or food if they're stuck here.

local govt are NOT taking responsibility for the HUGE population of visitors and tourists here and i can assure you that eventually this will lead to diasaster. it does not make me happy in any way to make the revelation. i do not wish to be on the other end of an i told you so, that so recklessly disregards human lives.

North Lake are you still reading........

The Walton County Library off of 331 has a pamphlet with hurricane/emergency info including numbers to call for information and Sowal is a great resource as well. I don't have more sources as I've always relied on the radio and other locals for updates & evacuation info. I think there's a thread somewhere on here with much more info and advice too.

I realize it's difficult and frustrating to plan around the whims of a hurricane/tropical storm, but basically if there's a potential hurricane on the way you probably shouldn't be here if you're not a resident.

Not only is it not as much fun to be vacationing when the beaches are closed, restaurants, stores, and other businesses will be closing and/or busy with storm prep and as you mentioned, you are not adequately prepared and don't have the resources required if you are forced to stay.

The Walton County Library off of 331 has a pamphlet with hurricane/emergency info including numbers to call for information and Sowal is a great resource as well. I don't have more sources as I've always relied on the radio and other locals for updates & evacuation info. I think there's a thread somewhere on here with much more info and advice too.

I realize it's difficult and frustrating to plan around the whims of a hurricane/tropical storm, but basically if there's a potential hurricane on the way you probably shouldn't be here if you're not a resident.

Not only is it not as much fun to be vacationing when the beaches are closed, restaurants, stores, and other businesses will be closing and/or busy with storm prep and as you mentioned, you are not adequately prepared and don't have the resources required if you are forced to stay.

Seems like you are asking for a little common sense and personal responsibility. You better be careful ;-) .

On a more serious note.. Hopefully, the one good thing that will come from a terrible storm like Katrina is that tropical systems are serious and if one is coming get out of the way. I have heard of storms getting stronger quickly in the Gulf (like Opal) but not typically starting up and hitting in less then a few days.

As I mentioned in another post, evacuation was EXTREMELY effective with Hurricane Dennis as it was a ghost town 24 hours out. By the way, that was two years ago yesterday.

As for the hurricane brochure, I have also seen it at the South Walton Annex, Chamber of Commerce and TDC all on 331. Here is the County website that has alll of the same information and more.

http://www.co.walton.fl.us/default.asp?ID=63

In regards to the need of information as a full time resident, you can always contact citizen services at 892-8530 if you have ANY question about the County and they will get you the information or point you in the right direction.

Sorry for jumping on the tangent bandwagon...maybe this should be over in traffic...

Scooterbug is quite right, it's a can of worms. Access is one thing, but the right to use the beach, other than to traverse it on your way to somewhere else, is another thing. If your access is only a few feet wide and the beaches to your left and right are privately owned and the owners decide to defend their rights, you better keep moving.

Seems like you are asking for a little common sense and personal responsibility. You better be careful ;-) .

Must be a holdover from my college days when I got so frustrated w/ people's inability to function in daily life that I dubbed myself "Capt. Obvious" and issued humorous proclamations as the "Commissioner of Common Sense"!

In Raven's defense, if you're not familiar w/ hurricanes you really don't know what to do and it can seem chaotic. My first evacuation was very nerve racking, now I sort of hope for an "evacucation" at least once a summer.

Must be a holdover from my college days when I got so frustrated w/ people's inability to function in daily life that I dubbed myself "Capt. Obvious" and issued humorous proclamations as the "Commissioner of Common Sense"!

In Raven's defense, if you're not familiar w/ hurricanes you really don't know what to do and it can seem chaotic. My first evacuation was very nerve racking, now I sort of hope for an "evacucation" at least once a summer.

That's very funny.:rofl:

I agree completely that hurricanes and other storms are terrible and chaotic at best. My main point was simply that we shouldn't count on government to tell us they are in post Katrina times. That storm impacted three coastal states, it was not a narrowly defined storm. So the best advice is what you put to begin with. If a storm is coming visitors shouldn't be here. If you are here, leave. With Weather Channel, Anderson Cooper and Fox News there should be no surprises for anyone.

I have heard of storms getting stronger quickly in the Gulf (like Opal) but not typically starting up and hitting in less then a few days.

No, not typically. But it happens. Tropical Storm Alberto on July 3, 1994, for one. The winds were never strong enough to be a serious threat, but that storm produced record-breaking rainfall and fatalities in Georgia from flooding. According to the NHC archives, it actually began as a wave off the coast of Africa on June 18. But it mostly died out and reformed more than once. When it finally took shape in the Gulf it blew up quickly. Take a look at the Watch and Warning Lead Times, from NHC:
For Destin:
Tropical Storm Watch - not issued
Tropical Storm Warning - 24 hours
Hurricane Warning - 15 hours.
That's right, 15 hours warning on Fourth of July weekend. Most people stayed put because it wasn't a Katrina, but lots decided to leave, that is the ones that were able to get gas. It was quite the traffic jam at the Seagrove Tom Thumb. Forecasting is better these days so we might get a bit longer, maybe enough hours to equal the evacuation time. Oh, but wait, on the Fourth of July, and everybody would have to leave pretty much at the same time....

My concern is that the Weather Channel and others have gotten so sensationalized that a "cry, wolf" scenario is quickly approaching, and they are undoing the hard lessons learned from Katrina.

I always err on the side of caution just because I'd rather leave and not have any problems then stay and have big ones.

I consider my best possible contribution to the emergency process to be getting myself out of the way so our community's resources can be focused on those who truly need it.

For some reason, the song "Should I Stay or Should I Go" is in my head after reading this thread.

No, not typically. But it happens. Tropical Storm Alberto on July 3, 1994, for one. The winds were never strong enough to be a serious threat, but that storm produced record-breaking rainfall and fatalities in Georgia from flooding. According to the NHC archives, it actually began as a wave off the coast of Africa on June 18. But it mostly died out and reformed more than once. When it finally took shape in the Gulf it blew up quickly. Take a look at the Watch and Warning Lead Times, from NHC:
For Destin:
Tropical Storm Watch - not issued
Tropical Storm Warning - 24 hours
Hurricane Warning - 15 hours.
That's right, 15 hours warning on Fourth of July weekend. Most people stayed put because it wasn't a Katrina, but lots decided to leave, that is the ones that were able to get gas. It was quite the traffic jam at the Seagrove Tom Thumb. Forecasting is better these days so we might get a bit longer, maybe enough hours to equal the evacuation time. Oh, but wait, on the Fourth of July, and everybody would have to leave pretty much at the same time....

Warning this post is not related to handcuffs

Thank you NDY for the Alberto reference and I did go to the site and found the following links and summaries. It is a very good example of what can happen on short notice but has some good lessons also. I am summarizing each into one sentence to make a point:

Keep in mind this storm has been being tracked in the gulf since before 11pm on Thursday, June 30th. The track is continually moving eastward with each update and they are saying over and over that there are numerous things that "could" or "might" affect it.

5am Sat Jul 02, Pensacola is part of the tropical storm area.
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/storm_wallets/atlantic/atl1994/alberto/tropdisc/nal0194.008

11am Sat Jul 02, Destin and BSW are in the TS warning zone
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/storm_wallets/atlantic/atl1994/alberto/tropdisc/nal0194.009

11am Sun Jul 03, TS Alberto is right on the coast
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/storm_wallets/atlantic/atl1994/alberto/tropdisc/nal0194.014

My point is that there was a Tropical system that was being watched in the gulf for 3.5 days prior to landfall and continually moving eastward. It had an erratic track and was small in intensity meaning that it was subject to great location changes due to steering currents. At worst, the Weather Channel would be hyping this thing like armageddon itself for at least three days out and Cantore would have a tent on the beach 48 hours out. ;-)

In all seriousness, when a storm enters the gulf pay attention. If like with this example the track continues to move and they say they don't know where its going and there are numerous factors that could affect it- take advantage of all the time you have to get out. With the knowledge of what happened with Katrina, we really can't say- "I didn't know." Keep in mind with a Cat 3-4 storm most of the area NORTH of 98 will flood also due to Choctawhatchee Bay (think Mississippi). Not to mention the problems on the beach. Sorry for the hijack again. I promise to quit

For some reason, the song "Should I Stay or Should I Go" is in my head after reading this thread.

Not in your house

I'm hoping for some great hurricane karmic retribution for the "mine, mine, mine, don't touch" beach owners!

Too bad a hurricane is more of a blunt instrument than a scalpel ;-).

For some reason, the song "Should I Stay or Should I Go" is in my head after reading this thread.

It's a good cautionary tale:

If I go there will be trouble, if I stay there will be DOUBLE!

No, not typically. But it happens. Tropical Storm Alberto on July 3, 1994, for one. The winds were never strong enough to be a serious threat, but that storm produced record-breaking rainfall and fatalities in Georgia from flooding. According to the NHC archives, it actually began as a wave off the coast of Africa on June 18. But it mostly died out and reformed more than once. When it finally took shape in the Gulf it blew up quickly. Take a look at the Watch and Warning Lead Times, from NHC:
For Destin:
Tropical Storm Watch - not issued
Tropical Storm Warning - 24 hours
Hurricane Warning - 15 hours.
That's right, 15 hours warning on Fourth of July weekend. Most people stayed put because it wasn't a Katrina, but lots decided to leave, that is the ones that were able to get gas. It was quite the traffic jam at the Seagrove Tom Thumb. Forecasting is better these days so we might get a bit longer, maybe enough hours to equal the evacuation time. Oh, but wait, on the Fourth of July, and everybody would have to leave pretty much at the same time....

Hurricane Opal, we didn't even have 15 hours. We all went to bed knowing it was going to New Orleans, and were awoken at 7 am by Sheriff's cars going through the neighborhood with loud speakers screaming, "GET OUT GET OUT WE ARE GOING TO BE HIT. IT'S A CATAGORY 5. GET OUT NOW!"

That was by far one of the scariest experiences of my life. Everyone was just throwing things in the car. I got out by 9am and it took me 10 hours to get to Andalusia (sp) Alabama.

They still have not changed any evacuation route since them. That was 1995,...... no changes in evacuation route..... population explosion..... no changes in evacuation route.......2007.... no change in evacuation route...

Get the point?

Oh, and that was in October, NOT the middle of season, so there weren't many tourist here at all.

To lessen confusion and weed out the posts which are not pertaining to beach ownership and being kicked off the beach, please start a hurricane evacuation thread. It is a serious issue and needs to be in a thread dedicated to it, as does this one on beach ownership. thanks.;-)

The latter part of this thread has convinced me of one thing - if I'm ever in the area when a hurricane warning is issued, I'd rather have a root canal than try to evacuate. I'll wait until just before landfall, then head to the nearest shelter. I'd rather fight storm surge in my living room than traffic on 331.

To lessen confusion and weed out the posts which are not pertaining to beach ownership and being kicked off the beach, please start a hurricane evacuation thread. It is a serious issue and needs to be in a thread dedicated to it, as does this one on beach ownership. thanks.;-)

Can you do it for us? I don't know how to bring messages over...

Have there been any new arrests or developements?

Today's Walton Sun (http://waltonsun.com):

Recent arrest sparks private beach issue
July 11, 2007
Sean Boone
Sean_Boone@link.freedom.com

It has been more than 30 years since the 1974 City of Daytona Beach v. Tona-Rama, Inc. case, which made public access on dry-sanded beaches permissible, yet the issue of privatization continues to be debated in the state of Florida do to legal disputes and changes in county policies.
Although all beaches were declared permissible for use in the state in the Tona-Rama case, loitering and using private-deemed beach property for recreational use (tents, towels etc.) was not.
In South Walton, several beach resorts and developments have recently hired security officers to patrol the private section of the beach front property.
But what exactly is considered private beach front property?
According to the Tourist Development Council, areas west of Four Mile Village is deemed public 35-40 feet from the water due to the recent county beach nourishment project that has widened the beach; areas along 30-A that are private allow no dry sand access for public use.
?The Walton County Sherriff?s Office has been willing to enforce the wet sand line,? said a Blue Mountain Inn Beach Resort official. ?The majority of this area is private property. People bought it so they could enjoy it.?
Services, such as Silver Shores security (which Blue Mountain Inn and the Retreat use), have been hired to respond to complaints from residents who feel that their property is being intruded upon. If a problem persists, deputies are then notified.
The arrest that occurred in front of the Retreat beach community on July 5 has created a number of concerns for residents and visitors in regards to what and where is deemed legal to use the beach in the Blue Mountain Beach area.
Eduardo Gonzalez, 47, of Atlanta, Ga., was sitting in a chair on dry sand on Retreat property when he was asked by a security guard to move to the wet sand area of the beach, or leave. When Gonzalez refused, Walton Sherriff?s deputies were called and arrested him for trespassing. Gonzalez refused to comment on the incident.
?Until we get further guidance, we are going to enforce trespassing,? said Lt. Bryan A. Maule, Jr., of the Walton County Sheriff's Office
Although a change in beach policy has been denied by law enforcement, some long-term visitors and residents disagree.
?We?ve all been coming down here for 40 years, said Rick Hallman. ?Now they?ve started this whole territorial thing. We?ve got nowhere to go. If you?re going to start arresting tourists and hauling them off in front of family and kids, what kind of message are you sending to your tourists that you thrive on??
Hallman and his wife both witnessed the arrest last week in front of the Retreat and were also asked by security to move from the spot that they were sitting.
?We came down here to setup and of course the security guard came down and we had to move where the sand is wet. How can you have fluctuating property rights? Are they going to start arresting children??
Because of the recent attention that this issue has been given, the TDC released a frequently asked question list this past week to answer private/public beach questions that have been addressed by the public.
One question that was not listed and has been frequently discussed on the SoWal.com message board is the funding of the TDC in relation to public beach benefits (trash cans, lifeguards etc.).
?We are not part of the county,? said TDC Executive Director Kris Titus. ?We are fully funded by bed taxes. The TDC has the ability to drive on private beach; the health, safety, and welfare of the public is to have a clean beach.?
But even with the recent attention to the matter, the question still lingers as to how the general public will be informed on what is private beach access and what are the implications for trespassing.
?I think some of the county commissioners need to clarify where the public can use this beach,? said resident Debbie Barnhill. ?If it?s the case that we as taxpayers aren?t allowed to sit this close to water, than we need to put our properties up for sale and move on to an area that is more community minded.?
Calls to Retreat Homeowners Association spokesman Frank Flautt were not returned.

Another issue in SOWAL....? I can see it it now, a beach access disclosure we wil have to have clients fill out.