This morning as my wife and I were returing form a shoreline walk we saw county officials asking a couple of men to move their "set up" from infront of The Retreat at Blue Mountain Beach. About an hour later my wife saw him being led from the beach in handcuffs for tresspassing. One of the men was taking pictures... maybe we'll see them post them here.
I know from reading previous posts that this is a hot button issue but it seems that some want to enforce the "letter of the law". I saw where they were placed and it was close to the water line very near the boundry of the Inn at Blue Mountain. They seemed to minding their own business. As the sherriff left I happened to walk by them and heard "I think it was the right call... where the wet sand meets the dry".
I'm confused, the beachgoers were were set up outside of the posted signs. If the owners really want to keep people out can they fence in their beach? (not that I'd want to see that)
In the many years of coming to SoWal I've always been impressed with the civility of residents and tourists -- although I have heard some horror stories. We abolutely love it here and treat it as though we already live here. But I was very surprised that it seems the owners are calling the country for what seems such a small infraction -- seems like a waste.
This was the second day in a row that I saw county officials inforcing the private beach rule.
Is the pendulum swinging?
Replies
962Beach Fanatic
Couple of thoughts:
- Does the Army Corps of Engineers have any say about beachfront access, maintenance, ownership etc?
No, I don't believe the Corps has anything to do with it. However, the DEP does. You have to have everything approved by the DEP and that is not an easy process.
Beach Fanatic
Back to the Inn at Blue Mountain Redfish Circle and the Retreat.....
Before I left I spoke with he 3-till-11 guy at the inn about the arrest on the 4th.
Now, knowing that he's just the watchman/maintenance/afternoon guy and may not be a credible source, he mentioned that there were some encroachment issues about the "private" walkover between the retreat and the inn. He had heard that the walkover was built on the Retreat's property. Can anyone confirm this?
Look for another fight, Maybe the Retreat owners are circling the wagons
Couple of thoughts:
- Does the Army Corps of Engineers have any say about beachfront access, maintenance, ownership etc?
- Does ownership of a beachfront consist of that lot owners rights to the beach or the subdivision to which the lot belongs? I wonder if the people at the back of the Retreat have similar rights to the beach as the beachfront lot owners. And if they do, do they not consist of the public?[/quote]
No they only have regulatory authority below Mean High Water.
Not at the Retreat. The beach is reserved for the use of the subdivision, not public.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
actually, it happened before last year. There was an article in the DFS newspaper about it not sure which year, but it was the year that the sign was first put by The Retreat people.
Beach Fanatic
- Does ownership of a beachfront consist of that lot owners rights to the beach or the subdivision to which the lot belongs? I wonder if the people at the back of the Retreat have similar rights to the beach as the beachfront lot owners. And if they do, do they not consist of the public?I too was a little curious how the Retreat was set up. The answer is the gulf front property owners own to the water line. However there exists a "common recreational use easement" more or less on the sandy part of the beach for the rest of the Retreat.
SoWal Expert
- Does ownership of a beachfront consist of that lot owners rights to the beach or the subdivision to which the lot belongs? I wonder if the people at the back of the Retreat have similar rights to the beach as the beachfront lot owners. And if they do, do they not consist of the public?
You don't have rights to access the beach just because you bought in a neighborhood that includes beachfront lots UNLESS the subdivision or development has covenants stating that you do. The deed/covenants will specifically say who does and does not have access, typically by referring to the owners of lot number "x".
Beach Fanatic
I too was a little curious how the Retreat was set up. The answer is the gulf front property owners own to the water line. However there exists a "common recreational use easement" more or less on the sandy part of the beach for the rest of the Retreat.
And this makes sense? So, tell me, how do the property owners know if the person camped out in "their back yard" are staying at the Retreat or not?
What if the sheriff is called on someone, they could just say they were staying at the Retreat and the deputy would leave them alone?
So, now you are suggesting that the Bubba's in Blue need to know the rules for each "beach" they are called to?
SoWal Expert
So, tell me, how do the property owners know if the person camped out in "their back yard" are staying at the Retreat or not?
What if the sheriff is called on someone, they could just say they were staying at the Retreat and the deputy would leave them alone?
Very good question! I certainly don't carry ID or a room key at the beach. Would the deputy just ask them to prove they were staying there?
It's almost like them trying to enforce this has opened up a can of worms......
Meow
Very good question! I certainly don't carry ID or a room key at the beach. Would the deputy just ask them to prove they were staying there?
It's almost like them trying to enforce this has opened up a can of worms......
....but, how do you get back in? Oh, maybe you do not lock your doors.Beach Fanatic
Your question is very reasonable and sounds like a conundrum to me. Short of receiving a permit to build a fence, and posting signs, hiring a security guard sounds like the only way to defend it, but according to the Court, in another post which I quoted, the property owner should not interfear with the public's use. Therefore, I don't think they are in a situation where they "can" defend "their" property.
You stated that the property owner should not interfere with the public's use.
Once more, for clarity, here's your quote...
"If the r e c r e a t i o n a l use of the sandy area adjacent to mean
high tide has been ancient, reasonable, without i n t e r r u p t i o n
and free from dispute, such use, as a matter of custom, should
not be i n t e r f e r e d with by the owner."
You apparently have determined on your own that the "IF" applies to every private gulf front property in Walton County without concrete evidence and without any real and meaningful interpretation to my post #122 as to what defines public use of the beach. I'm not criticizing that you don't have all the answers, but it appears to me that on the same hand you can not simply say the "IF" part has been fulfilled and therefore the private owner should not interfere.
If this were the case, we would be discussing something else right now.
One of the "IF" conditions in your quote above states that the use be "free from dispute". What is the definition of "dispute" as used here? That idea is certainly not the case today.
Beach Fanatic
Several rental houses have lock boxes on their porch or another undisclosed place in case the guest gets locked out.
Also, you can always hide a key somewhere so you don't have to risk loosing them.
Beach Fanatic
And this makes sense? So, tell me, how do the property owners know if the person camped out in "their back yard" are staying at the Retreat or not?I'm just stating fact. Let's keep this on the up and up.
What if the sheriff is called on someone, they could just say they were staying at the Retreat and the deputy would leave them alone?
So, now you are suggesting that the Bubba's in Blue need to know the rules for each "beach" they are called to?
SoWal Expert
I err on the side of not losing my keys in the sand versus being robbed during that random & short window of time that my house is unlocked.
.....and the scooterbug lifestyle doesn't really include any easily stolen/transported items. My 'stereo' cost less than $100 more than 10 years ago, no diamonds, etc.
Edited
Meow
I err on the side of not losing my keys in the sand versus being robbed during that random & short window of time that my house is unlocked.
I am such a big city girl.
Beach Fanatic
Does the Retreat allow rentals? I am not positive but I think it is like Draper Lake and does not so the Retreat Security Guard would probably know who was "supposed" to be there, especially since it is not built out too much. The other dead give away is that the access to the beach from the Retreat is not at the border it is closer to the middle so it is less likeley someone from the retreat would be on the eastern border. Plus, this way you could see them coming from their boardwalk. This leads to the Inn at Blue Mountain. Once again the Inn's boardwalk is not on the border so you would see them coming. If you enter from the third access between the two which starts back at the parking lot, it's a dead giveaway.
As for the cops, all they would have to do is ask you where you are staying? Then if it got ugly, ask you to show them. If that didn't work, they would show you where you were staying for a little while...
As for the cops, all they would have to do is ask you where you are staying? Then if it got ugly, ask you to show them. If that didn't work, they would show you where you were staying for a little while...
Edited
Beach Fanatic
I'm just stating fact. Let's keep this on the up and up.
What part of my post do you feel is not on the up and up?
SoWal Expert
I am such a big city girl.
I used to be too - that's my only allowed security "lapse"!
SoWal Expert
I have a little question.
Am I allowed to walk past and through these private beaches? Or will I get yelled at?
Am I allowed to walk past and through these private beaches? Or will I get yelled at?
Beach Fanatic
I've got a couple of questions for Bobby J:
You implied earlier that you were going to "pop" this thing. Understood.
The only way would be for the "public" or an individual on behalf of the "public" (or something along these lines) to hire an attorney and pursue a SINGLE property owner or association as they would have to apparently prove their position on a "case by case" basis.
It's no secret that the Retreat is very aggressive at defending their property. It is now known (thanks to BeachSiO2) that several homes on 30A in Blue Mountain Beach with their private deeded beach access to "nowhere" could be really screwed if this thing isn't resolved. (BTW, if I were any part of a real estate transaction and all of this was not disclosed, I'd be a little concerned right now.)
Let's say, Walton county steps in and initiates litigation. Would they have to pursue each and every private property owner separately? Any idea how long that would take? How much that would cost?
Let me assure you, there are, for lack of better words, very DEEP pockets at the Retreat and I would assume their neighbor would join in the defense. This thing could be tied up for years.
So Bobby, are you guys going after the Retreat?
Again, I blame past and present county commissioners for this ridiculous predicament...continual approval of inland developments with no apparent strategy for addressing the beach private property issue.
There is no question the "solution" to this WHOLE thing hinges on beach renourishment and the Florida Supreme Court not for the renourishment itself, but for the public access afforded to them by this process. The hurricanes and associated erosion are definitely a friend of inland property owners in this regard, in my opinion. Sounds weird, I know.
You implied earlier that you were going to "pop" this thing. Understood.
The only way would be for the "public" or an individual on behalf of the "public" (or something along these lines) to hire an attorney and pursue a SINGLE property owner or association as they would have to apparently prove their position on a "case by case" basis.
It's no secret that the Retreat is very aggressive at defending their property. It is now known (thanks to BeachSiO2) that several homes on 30A in Blue Mountain Beach with their private deeded beach access to "nowhere" could be really screwed if this thing isn't resolved. (BTW, if I were any part of a real estate transaction and all of this was not disclosed, I'd be a little concerned right now.)
Let's say, Walton county steps in and initiates litigation. Would they have to pursue each and every private property owner separately? Any idea how long that would take? How much that would cost?
Let me assure you, there are, for lack of better words, very DEEP pockets at the Retreat and I would assume their neighbor would join in the defense. This thing could be tied up for years.
So Bobby, are you guys going after the Retreat?
Again, I blame past and present county commissioners for this ridiculous predicament...continual approval of inland developments with no apparent strategy for addressing the beach private property issue.
There is no question the "solution" to this WHOLE thing hinges on beach renourishment and the Florida Supreme Court not for the renourishment itself, but for the public access afforded to them by this process. The hurricanes and associated erosion are definitely a friend of inland property owners in this regard, in my opinion. Sounds weird, I know.
Beach Comber
Hey guys, I work for the Walton Sun and am working on a beach privatization piece for this week's publication. I would very much like to talk to you about this issue....We at the Sun feel that this issue is one of the most important issues of the year and want to cover it from all angles and report the absolute truth on public access and the ever-changing law enforcement policies.
If this is important to you, contact us, we want to hear your side of the story!
-Sean
sean_boone@link.freedom.com
850-267-4555
850-341-7095
If this is important to you, contact us, we want to hear your side of the story!
-Sean
sean_boone@link.freedom.com
850-267-4555
850-341-7095
Beach Comber
We were interviewed by a NWF Daily News reporter this afternoon about our family's trespassing violation. The reporter seems to be looking into if there is an increase in these enforcements/encounters between owners and tourist. My wife's impression is that the reporter thinks this happens every July 4th holiday but the reporter is looking into the possibility of an upward trend. You guys will know better than us regarding enforcement patterns. When it happens to you your perception is that its happening to everyone else.
Beware for this is a legal interpretation by a scientist. I see a couple of possible lawsuits but not from us:
Beware for this is a legal interpretation by a scientist. I see a couple of possible lawsuits but not from us:
- The obvious suit regarding public access to the beach vs. private property
- False advertising from the county and state regarding beach access to vacationers
- Entrapment by the police due to to the county's false advertising
- Selective and inconsistent enforcement by the police of poorly defined laws
- America's all time favorite; a "pain and suffering" suite against the property owner and county for not posting the property as private. The kids just can't sleep at night because of the nightmares! They will never trust the police again! Not really but it would play to an American jury.
SoWal Expert
Actually, it is not. Unfortunately this happened a few times last year also.I knew of some Stallworth property having a sign posted on the beach last year. Are you referring directly to the Inn at BMtn and The Retreat?
Beach Fanatic
Part of this came to a head last year in the City of Destin. It was mostly the beach service people running visitors off. And rudely so.
The City got together with the Okaloosa County Sheriff and decided on a 20 ft. "barrier". If you are within 20 feet of the water, the sheriff will not intervien, however, if you are over the 20 ft mark, then the Sheriff could take action. What that action is, basically asking you to move.
I haven't heard of many problems this year.
The City got together with the Okaloosa County Sheriff and decided on a 20 ft. "barrier". If you are within 20 feet of the water, the sheriff will not intervien, however, if you are over the 20 ft mark, then the Sheriff could take action. What that action is, basically asking you to move.
I haven't heard of many problems this year.
SoWal Expert
You stated that the property owner should not interfere with the public's use.
Once more, for clarity, here's your quote...
"If the r e c r e a t i o n a l use of the sandy area adjacent to mean
high tide has been ancient, reasonable, without i n t e r r u p t i o n
and free from dispute, such use, as a matter of custom, should
not be i n t e r f e r e d with by the owner."
You apparently have determined on your own that the "IF" applies to every private gulf front property in Walton County without concrete evidence and without any real and meaningful interpretation to my post #122 as to what defines public use of the beach. I'm not criticizing that you don't have all the answers, but it appears to me that on the same hand you can not simply say the "IF" part has been fulfilled and therefore the private owner should not interfere.
If this were the case, we would be discussing something else right now.
One of the "IF" conditions in your quote above states that the use be "free from dispute". What is the definition of "dispute" as used here? That idea is certainly not the case today.
Not totally true. I stated that the FL Supreme Court stated ....
Also, you quoted only the first half of what I typed. Perhaps if you read the second paragraph, you wouldn't jump to conclusions based on half of what I say. ;-) I have mentioned numerous times in this thread that the FL Supreme Court stated in Tona-Rama, that each case could be unique and would be handled in a case by case situation. You see what you want to see in my post. (Sounds like a repeating situation from the Village at Redfish.)
Furthermore, I don't have concrete evidence that the beach at The Retreat has been used by the public for many years. My guess is that the owners in The Retreat also lack concrete evidence to the contrary.
Edited
SoWal Expert
Several rental houses have lock boxes on their porch or another undisclosed place in case the guest gets locked out.Plus, The Retreat is a gated community, so homeowners may be more likely to leave their doors unlocked. I for one, don't even take my wallet (ID) to the beach.
Also, you can always hide a key somewhere so you don't have to risk loosing them.
SoWal Expert
I am not encouraging it, but I would laugh really hard if a truck, carrying a load of cow manure, broke down, blocking the entrance to The Retreat on Labor Day weekend.
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