Seawalls

I certainly am not hoping for people to lose their homes to storms (except for the Emerald Grande - it hurts my eyes), but I am realistic about who will win in the battle between a house built on a pile of sand at the water's edge and Mother Nature's fury.

I don't feel that extensive and illegal construction that harms wildlife and possibly increases damage to other people's property is the answer - neither is spending millions for a subpar "fix" to a beach that will properly fix itself.

I doubt if anyone would prevail..."act of God" and all.

I agree you never know how a lawsuit will turn out, but I am pretty sure a lawsuit will be filed. The reason I think that it will is that I know of one property owner that was talking to a lawyer when a wall was being built beside her. Also, I know that she contacted a guy who wrote his masters theses on impacts of walls to adjacent properties in wave environments that would be similar to both natural waves and a hurricane in sowal.

I am not sure folks are trying to get their way. They are just pointing out the obvious and confused why people continue to fight a battle they unfortunately can not win.
I can surely understand the fear that the beachfront homeowner must feel regarding this issue but it does not justify the illegal placement of many of these walls.

I certainly am not hoping for people to lose their homes to storms (except for the Emerald Grande - it hurts my eyes), but I am realistic about who will win in the battle between a house built on a pile of sand at the water's edge and Mother Nature's fury.

I don't feel that extensive and illegal construction that harms wildlife and possibly increases damage to other people's property is the answer - neither is spending millions for a subpar "fix" to a beach that will properly fix itself.

Since you both used the word "illegal" as in placement and construction, would I be wasting my time asking how you feel about the "legal" ones?

BMBV, I will add that while I am against seawalls along the beach, I do not wish harm on anyone or their property, including beach-front owners. As someone else wrote, I am just stating some things that seem so obvious -- if you build on loose sand, don't be surprised if the sand washes away. I doubt the seawalls would hold up to a major Hurricane, and I think it is highly likely that we will find pieces of carbon or whatever they are made of, scattered down the beach and in the shallow water. It might look similar to WWII barricades along the beach, and if you think it was costly installing them, wait until you have to get a crane on a barge to pull them out of the water.

I agree you never know how a lawsuit will turn out, but I am pretty sure a lawsuit will be filed. The reason I think that it will is that I know of one property owner that was talking to a lawyer when a wall was being built beside her. Also, I know that she contacted a guy who wrote his masters theses on impacts of walls to adjacent properties in wave environments that would be similar to both natural waves and a hurricane in sowal.

Interesting. I wasn't looking at it from that angle, only from the "failure" of a seawall.

But since you brought it up...suppose my neighbors to the east and to the west of me built seawalls just before Hurricane Dennis and I didn't. Then when Dennis hits, I am amazed that the erosion at my property is 20 feet further than when Ivan and Opal hit.

Would I have the right to claim that the additional 20 feet of erosion was caused by the adjacent walls and therefore sue my neighbors?

Of course you have that right, but remember that the Court has a right to make a determination as to whether or not your claim is valid and deserving of an award.

BeachSiO2 I walked down the access we talked about yesterday and it would make a nice access but I bet the home owners will be pissed. I have my private eye ( my mother, because she knows everyone in the neighborhood) to investigate peoples thought's on it. BMBV the state senate passed a bill that basically states that if ones seas wall fails or causes damage the state will clean up the mess an bill the responsible parties. I think it's the no net loss bill but I'll have to make a phone call an double check. As far as the video if you haven't watched it, the video tell you how bad the jetty's and seawalls affect the natural migration of the sand. Also the state will be taking measures so that there will be no more dredging just outflow pumping stations to get sand from one side of the jetty to the other. All beach armoring will be a dead dinosaur. Maholo and it's time to work my way across the county.

Interesting. I wasn't looking at it from that angle, only from the "failure" of a seawall.

But since you brought it up...suppose my neighbors to the east and to the west of me built seawalls just before Hurricane Dennis and I didn't. Then when Dennis hits, I am amazed that the erosion at my property is 20 feet further than when Ivan and Opal hit.

Would I have the right to claim that the additional 20 feet of erosion was caused by the adjacent walls and therefore sue my neighbors?

It's not quite that simple but let me partially lay out what my strategies would be in this instance if I was a "wall neighbor." I would document through surveying the conditions of my property, my neighbors property, and nearby natural areas at the beginning of hurricane season. If a hurricane hit, I would hire a qualified person (read "coastal expert") to have the beaches re-surveyed and analyzed to "tease out" if there was a measurable difference in my losses versus my neighbors, myself, and the control areas. There are predictive, quantitative and qualitative models that can be used to measure these differences as downdrift impacts have been studied just about forever.

If there were impacts, I would hire a lawyer and argue that even if the owner was able to get a permit to protect his house, his permit does not give him the right to construct an artificial structure on the beach that negatively impacted my property. I would also have put my neighbor on notice that his structure could become a nuisance to my property.

Keep in mind, I am not a lawyer in this instance, but I know of one local one that would probably take the case. So best case scenario is that the walled property owner would only have legal fees, but they could be paying to replace my sand or more and we all know how expensive that is.

It's not quite that simple but let me partially lay out what my strategies would be in this instance if I was a "wall neighbor." I would document through surveying the conditions of my property, my neighbors property, and nearby natural areas at the beginning of hurricane season. If a hurricane hit, I would hire a qualified person (read "coastal expert") to have the beaches re-surveyed and analyzed to "tease out" if there was a measurable difference in my losses versus my neighbors, myself, and the control areas. There are predictive, quantitative and qualitative models that can be used to measure these differences as downdrift impacts have been studied just about forever.

If there were impacts, I would hire a lawyer and argue that even if the owner was able to get a permit to protect his house, his permit does not give him the right to construct an artificial structure on the beach that negatively impacted my property. I would also have put my neighbor on notice that his structure could become a nuisance to my property.

Keep in mind, I am not a lawyer in this instance, but I know of one local one that would probably take the case. So best case scenario is that the walled property owner would only have legal fees, but they could be paying to replace my sand or more and we all know how expensive that is.

Re: "...(read "coastal expert")..." They've all moved away from what I hear.
But now that I think about it, we have a bunch right here on SoWal.;-)

I basically agree with your premise above. And I'm glad you pointed out the idea of establishing VALID "reference" points (similar topography and all). That was the point of my 20 feet of "additional erosion" comment.

Re: "...(read "coastal expert")..." They've all moved away from what I hear.
But now that I think about it, we have a bunch right here on SoWal.;-)

I basically agree with your premise above. And I'm glad you pointed out the idea of establishing VALID "reference" points (similar topography and all). That was the point of my 20 feet of "additional erosion" comment.

There's at least one coastal engineering firm in Destin, and others will probably pop up out of the woodwork if they were needed. ;-).

There's at least one coastal engineering firm in Destin, and others will probably pop up out of the woodwork if they were needed. ;-).

;-) the new

..... I doubt the seawalls would hold up to a major Hurricane, and I think it is highly likely that we will find pieces of carbon or whatever they are made of, scattered down the beach and in the shallow water. It might look similar to WWII barricades along the beach, and if you think it was costly installing them, wait until you have to get a crane on a barge to pull them out of the water.

I think we've been through this a time or two about the different qualities of seawalls that were constructed.

What I can assure you of is this:

If you can find your "pieces of carbon" on the beach from "our" wall after a hurricane, then demolished seawalls along the coast will be the LEAST of Walton County's problems.

And like I insinuated, I believe most here will be pleased. At least they can say, "I told you so." Also, like the pilot on the turtle video jokingly(?) said, the new artificial reefs will be a boon to the fishing industry.:roll:

Can I fish in your front yard?

BMBV, I think we all know that if we are hit with a major hurricane, there will be many structural problems around here. Not arguing that point.

BMBV, do you honestly think the majority of posters here actually want someone to lose their property to a hurricane?

I love that you think that all of Walton County will be in severe trouble if there is a storm big enough to take our your seawall. :roll:

Tropical Storms have enough oomph to take out walkovers and scatter seawalls along the beach with their waves ............... yet the effects even a block inland aren't enough to make me change my dinner plans.

In fact I'm usually out taking pics of the water boiling and scouring away the man-made structures from high/stable ground. ;-)

Do not go to sleep!

Peter, just curious...what motivated you to comment on and resurrect the seawalls thread over a year later? And, BTW, that wall is a high tech carbon fiber reinforced laminated fiberglass, not steel. I'm sure you wanted to know.

I guess it is just the same thing that I do when a tourist in Seaside walks from behind a large truck to cross the road 3 feet from the front bumper of my
3000 lb car going 20 mph. I try to explane to them that the laws of Physics also apply here at the beach. 180lb person vs 3000 lb car ........huuuuum which will have more damage? ??? They can do it but it REALLY is not a GOOD idea!

Same thing applys to seawalls that have no chance against major hurricanes.

I guess it is just the same thing that I do when a tourist in Seaside walks from behind a large truck to cross the road 3 feet from the front bumper of my
3000 lb car going 20 mph. I try to explane to them that the laws of Physics also apply here at the beach. 180lb person vs 3000 lb car ........huuuuum which will have more damage? ??? They can do it but it REALLY is not a GOOD idea!

Same thing applys to seawalls that have no chance against major hurricanes.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were a physicist. Crazy me!....for thinking a well engineered wall can hold up better to the seas than a mere mortal against your 3000 pound car going 20 mph.

When you were posting, were you by chance thinking of that poor soul that got whacked in the street by a hit and run driver yesterday ... and nobody stepped in to help?:shock:

You are kidding about all of this, right?

Just in case your answer is no, I'll inject some SoWal etiquette here:

And could you please answer my original question as "to what motivated you to comment on and resurrect the seawalls thread over a year later" in the first place?

BTW, if most here on SoWal get their way, God and/or nature will take of the seawalls (to the detriment of many good people) from many of the posters in this thread. I'm not directing this comment at you, BeachSiO2.

And like I insinuated, I believe most here will be pleased. At least they can say, "I told you so." Also, like the pilot on the turtle video jokingly(?) said, the new artificial reefs will be a boon to the fishing industry.:roll:

BMBV, do you honestly think the majority of posters here actually want someone to lose their property to a hurricane?

And could you please answer my original question as "to what motivated you to comment on and resurrect the seawalls thread over a year later" in the first place?

Could you please answer my question? Although things get a little one sided here (since you seem to be the only beachfront owner who really posts here with spirit), do you really think anyone here really wants anyone else to lose their property to a hurricane? I think not. Short of the "I told you so's", anyone here would gladly help out you or anyone else who lost their property in a storm. that's my belief.

Here is worthy news of seawall thread resurrection: I read in the June 5, 2008 Defuniak Herald that the government (DEP I think), was requiring at least one illegal seawall to be removed in Dune Allen. I believe that I read it is preventing the outfall of Oyster Lake. The neighboring property owner to the one being required to remove his seawall, says that he will remove his right after his neighbor removes his. The only reason he erected a seawall is because he thought his property would be further damaged since the neighbor built one. He said that if the neighbor had not built one, he would not have needed to build one himself. Perhaps ALeonard can post the text of the article on here for us?

I am sure many seawalls went up because the neighbor built one.

Could you please answer my question? Although things get a little one sided here (since you seem to be the only beachfront owner who really posts here with spirit), do you really think anyone here really wants anyone else to lose their property to a hurricane? I think not. Short of the "I told you so's", anyone here would gladly help out you or anyone else who lost their property in a storm. that's my belief.

I thought your question was more rhetorical than anything else. But since you insist and since so many SoWal members are in denial, read on.

The answer to your question most likely falls in line with the numbers here in SoWal that feel that ANY and ALL beach front property falls under the customary use doctrine and should be confiscated without reparation....same ole people with the same ole (socialistic and hypocritical) attitudes.

JR, if you and the others truly believe that the walls will fail, that's not a problem with me (anymore). I simply asked Peterwhatshisname why he started up the age old seawall issue again, especially after some of the "very interesting numbers" he was quoting regarding PSI and now, hit and run accidents which are directly related to seawall physics (SoWal etiquette... ).

I'm willing to learn a new trick if someone has new info to share. Otherwise, I really don't like to see people fueling frenzy by quoting crap on this message board and then getting away with it (in case you haven't noticed) on issues that are near and dear to me (and to many others).

I thought your question was more rhetorical than anything else. But since you insist and since so many SoWal members are in denial, read on.

The answer to your question most likely falls in line with the numbers here in SoWal that feel that ANY and ALL beach front property falls under the customary use doctrine and should be confiscated without reparation....same ole people with the same ole (socialistic and hypocritical) attitudes.

JR, if you and the others truly believe that the walls will fail, that's not a problem with me (anymore). I simply asked Peterwhatshisname why he started up the age old seawall issue again, especially after some of the "very interesting numbers" he was quoting regarding PSI and now, hit and run accidents which are directly related to seawall physics (SoWal etiquette... ).

I'm willing to learn a new trick if someone has new info to share. Otherwise, I really don't like to see people fueling frenzy by quoting crap on this message board and then getting away with it (in case you haven't noticed) on issues that are near and dear to me (and to many others).

Wow! Same reasons I defend on the RE threads! We actually have something in common.