Solving the illegal immigration problem from the bottom up
A newly proposed bill attempts to create dialogue
April 10, 2008
By Nate Kelly
Rep. Don Brown, R-DeFuniak Springs, wants law enforcement officials to find out about a person's legal status when they are detained for specific offenses.
House Bill 73, if passed in its current form, would require law enforcement personnel to verify a person's immigration status if charged with DUI or BUI. Currently there is no such requirement.
It would also require all public employers, contractors and subcontractors to participate in a specified federal program to verify legal status for all potential new employees.
A more controversial part of the bill would impose a penalty of up to one year imprisonment on any person who knowingly aids or transports an illegal alien.
Verification of legal status would also be required for those applying for public benefits.
Brown says the bill addresses the illegal immigration problem facing Florida and attempts to "preserve the sovereignty of Florida and rule of law."
The bill is just a first step, it starts the process and creates helpful dialogue, said Brown. Brown acknowledged the State of Florida alone cannot solve illegal immigration since it is a national problem and falls under the Federal Government's jurisdiction.
"Florida can't build a fence across the border or enact federal laws but they can start with enforcing the laws in place now," said the state representative.
As a preemptive move, HB 73 specifies that no local governments have authority to setup sanctuaries to circumnavigate federal laws regarding immigration.
In Brown's opinion there is a lot of opposition to the bill, especially from the construction and farming industries. Usually he is on the side of business, especially small business, but said he can't side with them on this topic because he feels they want to protect their own financial gains at the expense of the law.
On April 4, the bill was workshopped in Committee of State Affairs agenda.
Inspector George Collins of the Okaloosa Sheriff's Department said illegal immigrants are "generally asked anyways" when deputies stop drivers who have no drivers license or attempt to use fake documents. Collins said the State of Florida will not issue driver licenses to illegal immigrants, although they do create identification cards without verifying immigration status.
Any law enforcement officer must have "reasonable suspicion" someone is breaking the law before he can stop them and ask questions, said Collins. Reasonable suspicion is a less strenuous test than probable cause.
"Compliance visits" to local businesses are done by two different means, according to Collins.
First, law enforcement can go to a business and request them to volunteer employment records for verification of validity. This method usually does not produce that much, he said.
The other means is through an investigation, where information is slowly gathered until there is enough evidence for reasonable suspicion. At that point, a law enforcement official will be sent to the business and compel it to release any information on employees.
These "worksite violations" tend to have a "ripple affect" on other businesses who see the penalties of employing illegal immigrants and fire any illegal workers before further investigation can be completed, said Collins.
Local law enforcement personnel can only hold a person for a "reasonable amount of time" while awaiting instructions from federal agents. The allotted time is generally one hour. The closest Immigration and Customs Enforcement office is more than an hour.
The problem of illegal immigration is not just restricted to the financial implications but also humanitarian, said Brown. He theorizes that allowing illegal immigration to thrive it creates a subculture that is extraordinarily exposed to being abused. People are getting exploited and held captive because they don't have legal status and can't turn to the law for fears of deportation, Brown explained.
"No one wants this type of exploitation nor do we want hateful or cruel treatment of illegal immigrants. We simply want to insist on a legal status."
Replies
41
SoWal ExpertAuthor
I'm a little leery of this bill as it's sponsored by the guy who wanted the confederate flag license plate, so I don't think his sole motivation is protecting immigrants from exploitation, but a couple things in the article still made me go "WTF!?!"
1) The state of Florida issues identification cards without checking if someone is a legal immigrant. Shouldn't only issuing government ID cards to people w/ legal status be a no-brainer?
We're worried about terrorists and security but we don't even verify basic info before issuing ID that allows people to fly in planes and cross our borders?
2) They don't check if a person is a legal immigrant/citizen when they are arrested? I was under the impression that they ran a search to make sure you didn't have any warrants etc. when you were arrested. Since half the illegal immigrants in this country are here because they overstayed their visas, this would seem to also be a no-brainer.
1) The state of Florida issues identification cards without checking if someone is a legal immigrant. Shouldn't only issuing government ID cards to people w/ legal status be a no-brainer?
We're worried about terrorists and security but we don't even verify basic info before issuing ID that allows people to fly in planes and cross our borders?2) They don't check if a person is a legal immigrant/citizen when they are arrested? I was under the impression that they ran a search to make sure you didn't have any warrants etc. when you were arrested. Since half the illegal immigrants in this country are here because they overstayed their visas, this would seem to also be a no-brainer.
Beach Fanatic
What I find appalling is the 1 year prison term for those aiding an illegal immigrant. So, if some mom has a nanny who has shown her a drivers' license, and she hired her to help with the kids, she can go to jail?
I agree we need to do something about uncontrolled immigration, but why not start with the huge businesses that started the problem...places like Tyson...with more than 500 employees? We exempt small businesses from diversity laws and things like maternity leave and family leave because they lack resources, why not do the same with immigration enforcement?
However, the guy promoting this seems to me like one of the people who scapegoats a single issue during an election cycle to keep people voting for someone who perhaps doesn't work to promote the economic interests of the rank and file citizens of his district...but, you know I'm just saying that because I'm a HUGE elitist.
I agree we need to do something about uncontrolled immigration, but why not start with the huge businesses that started the problem...places like Tyson...with more than 500 employees? We exempt small businesses from diversity laws and things like maternity leave and family leave because they lack resources, why not do the same with immigration enforcement?
However, the guy promoting this seems to me like one of the people who scapegoats a single issue during an election cycle to keep people voting for someone who perhaps doesn't work to promote the economic interests of the rank and file citizens of his district...but, you know I'm just saying that because I'm a HUGE elitist.
Beach Fanatic
"Each non-immigrant who applies for an original driver license or identification card must submit:
Employment authorization card issued by the United States Department of Justice (Form I688B or I-766); or
Proof of nonimmigrant classification provided by United States Department of Justice (Form I-94, not expired, with required supporting attachment(s). If in doubt regarding required documents, please bring all of your INS documentation with you.). I-94s must be accompanied by a Passport. Certain classifications require additional documentation. Some examples are:
F-1 and M-1 classification must also be accompanied by an I-20.
I J-1 or J-2 designation must be accompanied by an IAP-66.
Refugee, asylee and parolee classifications must be accompanied by additional documentation.
The following documents will only be accepted with a supporting document, including but not limited to a Passport, Florida Driver License or Identification Card, Driver License from any other state, Employment Authorization Card, Employer Identification, Identification from home country, Identification from school or college, Social Security Card (Chapter 322, Florida Statutes, requires the Department to collect social security numbers for the issuance of driver license and identification cards) or other INS document.
I-571 Travel Document/Refugee Travel Permit
I-512 Parole Letter Accepted
IJO- Asylum or Cancellation of Removal - Immigration Judges Order granting Asylum or Cancellation of Removal.
All required and supporting documents MUST be original or certified.
Documents must be valid for more than 30 days from the date of issuance.
Non-U.S. citizens applying for an original driver license will be issued a 30-day, no photo, paper temporary permit and a receipt. Non-U.S. citizens applying for an identification card will be issued a receipt.
All records are transmitted to our database in Tallahassee, where the information will be examined and run against FDLE, FBI and INS databases.
Upon identity and legal status verification, a driver license or identification card will be issued within 30 days from Tallahassee, mailed to the address on the driver record. The license or identification card will be issued for the period of time specified on the INS document, up to a maximum of one year.
If a problem is detected, a denial of issuance letter will be mailed to the customer. "
Seems clear to me from 3 minutes of investigation on the net. They have a useless piece of paper for 30 days before they are sent a "denial of issuance" letter. I am no journalist or congressperson though.
Employment authorization card issued by the United States Department of Justice (Form I688B or I-766); or
Proof of nonimmigrant classification provided by United States Department of Justice (Form I-94, not expired, with required supporting attachment(s). If in doubt regarding required documents, please bring all of your INS documentation with you.). I-94s must be accompanied by a Passport. Certain classifications require additional documentation. Some examples are:
F-1 and M-1 classification must also be accompanied by an I-20.
I J-1 or J-2 designation must be accompanied by an IAP-66.
Refugee, asylee and parolee classifications must be accompanied by additional documentation.
The following documents will only be accepted with a supporting document, including but not limited to a Passport, Florida Driver License or Identification Card, Driver License from any other state, Employment Authorization Card, Employer Identification, Identification from home country, Identification from school or college, Social Security Card (Chapter 322, Florida Statutes, requires the Department to collect social security numbers for the issuance of driver license and identification cards) or other INS document.
I-571 Travel Document/Refugee Travel Permit
I-512 Parole Letter Accepted
IJO- Asylum or Cancellation of Removal - Immigration Judges Order granting Asylum or Cancellation of Removal.
All required and supporting documents MUST be original or certified.
Documents must be valid for more than 30 days from the date of issuance.
Non-U.S. citizens applying for an original driver license will be issued a 30-day, no photo, paper temporary permit and a receipt. Non-U.S. citizens applying for an identification card will be issued a receipt.
All records are transmitted to our database in Tallahassee, where the information will be examined and run against FDLE, FBI and INS databases.
Upon identity and legal status verification, a driver license or identification card will be issued within 30 days from Tallahassee, mailed to the address on the driver record. The license or identification card will be issued for the period of time specified on the INS document, up to a maximum of one year.
If a problem is detected, a denial of issuance letter will be mailed to the customer. "
Seems clear to me from 3 minutes of investigation on the net. They have a useless piece of paper for 30 days before they are sent a "denial of issuance" letter. I am no journalist or congressperson though.
SoWal ExpertAuthor
Thank you Elgordoboy!
Glad to know that it is NOT policy to issue ID w/o checking immigration status. That idea is even stupider now that my coffee is kicking in!
I'm REALLY hoping that it's a case of the Sun getting something wrong rather than a law enforcement official being unaware of the law. :roll:
Glad to know that it is NOT policy to issue ID w/o checking immigration status. That idea is even stupider now that my coffee is kicking in!
I'm REALLY hoping that it's a case of the Sun getting something wrong rather than a law enforcement official being unaware of the law. :roll:
Beach Fanatic
However, the guy promoting this seems to me like one of the people who scapegoats a single issue during an election cycle to keep people voting for someone who perhaps doesn't work to promote the economic interests of the rank and file citizens of his district...
He is not running for re-election.
SoWal Insider
I'm a little leery of this bill as it's sponsored by the guy who wanted the confederate flag license plate, so I don't think his sole motivation is protecting immigrants from exploitation, but a couple things in the article still made me go "WTF!?!"
1) The state of Florida issues identification cards without checking if someone is a legal immigrant. Shouldn't only issuing government ID cards to people w/ legal status be a no-brainer?
2) They don't check if a person is a legal immigrant/citizen when they are arrested? I was under the impression that they ran a search to make sure you didn't have any warrants etc. when you were arrested. Since half the illegal immigrants in this country are here because they overstayed their visas, this would seem to also be a no-brainer.
I wrote an article on the first draft of this bill almost a year ago.
To be able to check to see if someone is in the system first you have to have the right name. If not, then they can get in and out fairly easily. And even then this info has to be confirmed through the ice data bank. If someone comes into this country illegally, there is no record of them and only those deemed dangerous and are in the system will get picked up and deported. Those on petty charges, if ICE doesn't come back with a positive id are bailed out and most never come back for their court date.
Brown is pretty equal opportunity. He also ask for a street to be named after Dr. King at the same time he introduced the tag. He says he believes all his constituents deserve the right to be represented and he seems to walk the walk.
Edited
SWGB
In addition a DL will not get you across the border. You need a passport for that. It used to be that a DL and birth certificate were valid, but the law changed recently.
SoWal ExpertAuthor
I am just not understanding WHY we can't be flagging these people as part of basic law enforcement or bureaucratic procedure. Not sweeps, not stings, not profiling, just enforcing the immigration status of people UNDER ARREST OR IN CUSTODY.
If they're breaking the law and being stopped/arrested or applying for public benefits, why is immigration enforcement not ever coming into play?
Building a giant fence is an incredibly stupid idea, but not as dumb as not enforcing the law when you have people in custody already. I can understand there being gaps in the database, but it should still be flagging people w/ expired visas etc.
Basically I'm thinking we don't need new laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have.
If they're breaking the law and being stopped/arrested or applying for public benefits, why is immigration enforcement not ever coming into play?
Building a giant fence is an incredibly stupid idea, but not as dumb as not enforcing the law when you have people in custody already. I can understand there being gaps in the database, but it should still be flagging people w/ expired visas etc.
Basically I'm thinking we don't need new laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Immigration enforcement does come into play much of the time with violent offenders or wanted criminals. A lot more attention is given to that these days.
SoWal Insider
I am just not understanding WHY we can't be flagging these people as part of basic law enforcement or bureaucratic procedure. Not sweeps, not stings, not profiling, just enforcing the immigration status of people UNDER ARREST OR IN CUSTODY.
If they're breaking the law and being stopped/arrested or applying for public benefits, why is immigration enforcement not ever coming into play?
Building a giant fence is an incredibly stupid idea, but not as dumb as not enforcing the law when you have people in custody already. I can understand there being gaps in the database, but it should still be flagging people w/ expired visas etc.
Basically I'm thinking we don't need new laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Short answer from the seven part series I wrote Scoot.
Because the feds don't want locals doing what they term is their job. Locally if you are pulled over you can be arrested or fined for no drivers license or maybe identity theft. First time they are arrested chances are there are no fingerprints on file and many names given are someone else's. ICE states on it's website that dangerous or wanted felon are always their first priority.
I have heard horror stories of people who have had an illegal use their name or social and then post bail. They are never seen again, but a few years down the road the person with the real identity is pulled over for a traffic stop and finds out they have warrants out in their name. Any other way of tracing or tagging someone is gonna be out there because most of these people know how to live under the radar. It may at first sound like a no brainer, in reality, it is anything but.
PS. You are right about laws on the books needing to be enforced. But, locally a person cannot be held for not having proper id. If they bail out for no drivers license then they are free to go if ICE doesn't tag their file. Because being in the country illegally is a federal offense not a local one.
Edited
SoWal ExpertAuthor
I would love to read your series if you could post the link! 
I always thought that if you were arrested for a local/minor crime and it was revealed you had an outstanding warrant you were then detained until you could be transferred to the proper federal authorities/facility.
Understand the jurisdictional issues/turf wars, which is why I wasn't suggesting that the local law enforcement be tracking these people down, just doing a computer check and then detaining them (if necessary) for the feds to deal with.
If I got pulled over for speeding and it was discovered that I had committed a bad federal crime, the sheriff wouldn't just let me go.
I always thought that if you were arrested for a local/minor crime and it was revealed you had an outstanding warrant you were then detained until you could be transferred to the proper federal authorities/facility.
Understand the jurisdictional issues/turf wars, which is why I wasn't suggesting that the local law enforcement be tracking these people down, just doing a computer check and then detaining them (if necessary) for the feds to deal with.
If I got pulled over for speeding and it was discovered that I had committed a bad federal crime, the sheriff wouldn't just let me go.
Beach Fanatic
I would love to read your series if you could post the link!This is not being done. The offender (in the case of bad federal crime or state crime for that matter)is being held, sometimes sent to other detention centers, ultimately for deportation.
I always thought that if you were arrested for a local/minor crime and it was revealed you had an outstanding warrant you were then detained until you could be transferred to the proper federal authorities/facility.
Understand the jurisdictional issues/turf wars, which is why I wasn't suggesting that the local law enforcement be tracking these people down, just doing a computer check and then detaining them (if necessary) for the feds to deal with.
If I got pulled over for speeding and it was discovered that I had committed a bad federal crime, the sheriff wouldn't just let me go.
SoWal ExpertAuthor
If that is already happening, why do we need this law?
And if they can't verify your identity (for the variety of reasons aleonard said) how do they know they just stopped Scooterbug and not Osama Bin Laden?
And what good does it do to fine people if they are using other people's social #s and fake names?
And if they can't verify your identity (for the variety of reasons aleonard said) how do they know they just stopped Scooterbug and not Osama Bin Laden?
And what good does it do to fine people if they are using other people's social #s and fake names?
SoWal Insider
I would love to read your series if you could post the link!
I always thought that if you were arrested for a local/minor crime and it was revealed you had an outstanding warrant you were then detained until you could be transferred to the proper federal authorities/facility.
Understand the jurisdictional issues/turf wars, which is why I wasn't suggesting that the local law enforcement be tracking these people down, just doing a computer check and then detaining them (if necessary) for the feds to deal with.
If I got pulled over for speeding and it was discovered that I had committed a bad federal crime, the sheriff wouldn't just let me go.
Thanks, My editor has it in email format but we don't post our articles online. Or there maybe one on another site, I'll look later this week. When he gets back from vacation I'll see if he can dig it up as well.
Now, let me try to clarify. If you are an illegal alien with someone else's id and you get arrested for a minor crime. You are fingerprinted and post bail. They then take off. or if there is no record of you, you post bail and take off. Next there would have to be a national and far reaching way to identify everyone and in a national data base. We have one for offenders. ICE has a separate one for illegals who are wanted for felony crimes mostly. Local law enforcement can hold an offender for a crime committed in their jurisdiction but if they have been identified as illegal they will serve their time here and if ICE doesn't pick them up they have to be released. Locals can't hold for being illegal without a detainer from ICE. IF they are not in ICE data banks they are as good as free.
And if someone uses your id and then commits a crime. You won't get off. You will go to jail until they sort it out
Being illegal is not a crime until caught in the feds eyes and they have too much bubble gum to chew to keep up with everyone.
The biggest economical impact from illegal aliens in small towns from my research is the cost to the law enforcement systems and the courts. They are actually a crossover group with the uninsured where health care is concerned.
It's convoluted and confusing and needs a major overhaul so locals and feds can work together. but if they have never been in the system they usually get a "get out of jail free" pass the first time around.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Thanks, My editor has it in email format but we don't post our articles online. Or there maybe one on another site, I'll look later this week. When he gets back from vacation I'll see if he can dig it up as well.Excellently presented! I would simply add that:
Now, let me try to clarify. If you are an illegal alien with someone else id and you get arrested for a minor crime. You are fingerprinted and post bail. They then take off. or if there is no record of you, you post bail and take off. Next there would have to be a national and far reaching way to identify everyone and in a national data base. We have one for offenders. ICE has a separate one for illegals who are wanted for felony crimes mostly. Local law enforcement can hold an offender for a crime committed in their jurisdiction but if they have been identified as illegal they will serve their time here and if ICE doesn't pick them up they have to be released. Locals can't hold for being illegal without a detainer from ICE. IF they are not in ICE data bank s they are as good as free.
And if someone uses your id and then commits a crime. You won't get off. You will go to jail until they sort it out
Being illegal is not a crime until caught, in the feds eyes.And they have too much bubble gum to chew to keep up with everyone.
The biggest economical impact from illegal aliens in small towns from my research is the cost to the law enforcement systems and the courts. They are actually a cross over group with the uninsured where health care is concerned.
It's convoluted and confusing and needs a major overhaul so locals and feds can work together.
Illegal presence is NOT a crime, it is a civil offense. A civil offense is an infraction of a law that is not a crime. A crime is a violation of the law that is punishable by a fine or a jail sentence. Being in this country illegally is NOT a crime in legal terms.
(I plagiarized the above)
Did you look for/encounter any positive effects when you researched the matter?
SoWal Insider
Excellently presented! I would simply add that:
Illegal presence is NOT a crime, it is a civil offense. A civil offense is an infraction of a law that is not a crime. A crime is a violation of the law that is punishable by a fine or a jail sentence. Being in this country illegally is NOT a crime in legal terms.
(I plagiarized the above)
Did you look for/encounter any positive effects when you researched the matter?
Thank you and thanks for the addition. I knew I was leaving something out.
I really enjoyed meeting with a very nice church service that I attended with people who would only give me their first names and one brave soul gave me a photo. That was a positive for me. They weren't nameless faces behind discussions or articles and they were a wonderful group of people. I want everyone to be able to have a better life but we have to fix our immigration system. Bottom line is economics drives illegal immigration and country policy such as oppression after that. Businesses have to be punished to keep it in check. Very few have or have not been fined properly and in an amount that hurts.
I also found the very interesting history of Birthright Citizenship and how we are one of the last countries to honor it. In most other countries one parent has to be a citizen. There is room for much improvement all around.
SWGB
If that is already happening, why do we need this law?
And if they can't verify your identity (for the variety of reasons aleonard said) how do they know they just stopped Scooterbug and not Osama Bin Laden?
And what good does it do to fine people if they are using other people's social #s and fake names?
Even without racial profiling I'm pretty sure they wouldn't make that mistake. ;-)
SoWal ExpertAuthor
Illegal presence is NOT a crime, it is a civil offense. A civil offense is an infraction of a law that is not a crime. A crime is a violation of the law that is punishable by a fine or a jail sentence. Being in this country illegally is NOT a crime in legal terms.
This is what I was missing!
I thought that BEING an illegal alien wasn't itself a crime, but that they got you on the technicalities - for violating immigration laws, false papers etc.
SoWal Insider
This is what I was missing!
I thought that BEING an illegal alien wasn't itself a crime, but that they got you on the technicalities - for violating immigration laws, false papers etc.
Exactly. Thanks Gordy for filling in the blanks
SoWal Expert
This is what I was missing!BINGO! forging Federal and State documents is a criminal act. So is Income Tax Evasion.
I thought that BEING an illegal alien wasn't itself a crime, but that they got you on the technicalities - for violating immigration laws, false papers etc.
Beach Fanatic
BINGO! forging Federal and State documents is a criminal act. So is Income Tax Evasion.
No kidding, I knew I shouldn't have listened to those tax guys...
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/DOJ/wireStory?id=4657140
SoWal Expert
I think much is said about our gov't in the way which they shift the burden of identifying illegals to the employers in the US, rather than having the balls to do it themselves.
BTW, gayboi, I think the new hi-tech driver's licenses allow one to cross back and forth into Mexico, Canada, and the Carribean, using only one's driver's license.
BTW, gayboi, I think the new hi-tech driver's licenses allow one to cross back and forth into Mexico, Canada, and the Carribean, using only one's driver's license.
SoWal ExpertAuthor
BINGO! forging Federal and State documents is a criminal act. So is Income Tax Evasion.
Which brings us full circle as to why illegals are not being detained and charged for these crimes.
I would believe the Shrub's "terror and need for increased security" rhetoric if the gov't showed some serious effort to track/prevent people from entering the country and enforcement of the immigration laws. :roll:
Beach Fanatic
Rather amazing the lengths people will go to for the honor of cutting our lawns, and it is amazing what we want to do to them for it.
Edited
SoWal ExpertAuthor
Yes, what was I thinking with my impossibly high (and obviously xenophobic) standard of wanting people to follow basic laws! :roll:
Either it's a crime and we should be enforcing it, or we should change the laws/policies.
Either it's a crime and we should be enforcing it, or we should change the laws/policies.
Edited
Checking your forum account
Please wait while we verify your forum account.