Firefighters? Anyone?

I haven't seen the signs. May I ask who the firefighters have chosen to support?

Per Punzy...

[ame="http://sowal.com/bb/showpost.php?p=439368&postcount=28"]SoWal Beaches Forum - View Single Post - Firefighters? Anyone?[/ame]

Per Punzy...

http://sowal.com/bb/showpost.php?p=439368&postcount=28

Thanks, Haiku Master

I had seen his name in the thread, but had a brain spasm, I guess I didn't realize it was a BCC endorsement only or if they endorsed candidates in other races as well.

I haven't seen the signs. May I ask who the firefighters have chosen to support?

Tom Cooper - Sherrif
Sid Braunstein - WCBCC District 5
Maurice Gilbert - SWFD Seat 1
Scott Thurston - SWFD Seat 3
Jon Kazek - SWFD Seat 5

Ok, it just became clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.

My firefighters union local is completely autonomous. We answer to no one but our own membership. Our Executive Board is made up of elected dues paying members who act at the direction of the rest of the dues paying membership within South Walton Professional Firefighters Assoc. Period. When you say that unions work for the unions and not for the members, I wonder who you think the "unions" are.

Furthermore, if you doubt our commitment to the safety and well-being of the members of this community as being our top priority you need to do a lot more research. After having done so, if you have any self respect or decency, I doubt that you will come back and try to sully our name and astound us with your ignorance again.

I appreciate you posting on this site.

I feel you are getting the wrong idea. This is a place for back and forth. No reason to get defensive. Just because someone questions you, it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't on your side, even if they aren't voting for the same candidate as yourself. Remain calm and respond reasonably with the facts and you will be fine. Saying things like, "that's all I have to say", or using terms like "wicthhunt" are defensive, reactionary, and over the top. They make you seem a bit unreasonable.

I see nothing wrong with your process. It sounds like one candidate didn't return the questionnaire (I bet he wishes he had) so he didn't get the invite. I'll bet there was some communication lacking by one or more parties, or miscommunication. Maybe egos came into play? I don't doubt that you have a fine organization and have the public's best interests at heart.

Believe me when I say this thread is helping me to decide whom to vote for. We might have common interests and goals. I certainly agree with your premise about elected officials serving the public instead of the other way around. Flexibility, compromise, and negotiation are not dirty words but rather necessary qualities for the BCC and you seem to understand that.

I like SWFD

To all who have concerns:

SWFD is one of the best Fire Departments in the area, let alone the State. It is no surprise that certain candidates (via their supporters) are crying about the SWFD endorsing Tom Cooper for Sheriff instead of their candidate. Much of this is due to the vibe on the street that certain candidates do not have as much support as once thought. So, naturally, panic sets in...

First, SWFD Union is NO DIFFERENT than an independant voter, such as myself. I have not set forth my support to any one candidate, so maybe that's a difference... Either way, who the union endorses is their business. I am so sorry that a few candidates want to dispute the decision of these fine men and women. (I've always said, that I'd rather have to call the FD then the SO to help me. The FD has stopped to change my tire, SO drives on by...)

Candidates and supporters of the candidates - get over it. SWFD has placed its support with Tom Cooper. You can complain about the signs and that you don't like the color, etc, etc, etc. You sound silly and you make your candidate look bad as you focus on appearance instead of context. Why don't you focus your attention on the Bay County Fire Department, maybe they can endorse someone... That wouldn't matter much would it?

Relationships, like that of SWFD and local businesses, neighborhoods and resorts do not happen overnight, they are built. They don't pass around $500 checks and gain support with the stroke of a pen and an open ended promise of "favors". They are cultivated, earned and then respected. This is based on years of PARTNERSHIPS. Those partnerships, in turn, mean support and in this case an endorsement.

Please stop questioning the reasons behind the SWFD's endorsement of Tom Cooper. They must feel he is the best man for the job. Move on and find someother reason to complain.

w

I appreciate you posting on this site.

I feel you are getting the wrong idea. This is a place for back and forth. No reason to get defensive. Just because someone questions you, it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't on your side, even if they aren't voting for the same candidate as yourself. Remain calm and respond reasonably with the facts and you will be fine. Saying things like, "that's all I have to say", or using terms like "wicthhunt" are defensive, reactionary, and over the top. They make you seem a bit unreasonable.

I see nothing wrong with your process. It sounds like one candidate didn't return the questionnaire (I bet he wishes he had) so he didn't get the invite. I'll bet there was some communication lacking by one or more parties, or miscommunication. Maybe egos came into play? I don't doubt that you have a fine organization and have the public's best interests at heart.

Believe me when I say this thread is helping me to decide whom to vote for. We might have common interests and goals. I certainly agree with your premise about elected officials serving the public instead of the other way around. Flexibility, compromise, and negotiation are not dirty words but rather necessary qualities for the BCC and you seem to understand that.

Sorry for the “defensiveness”.

When someone starts spouting pure uneducated, ignorant, and inflammatory rhetoric as fact in an apparent attempt to somehow damage the credibility of a group of people that I personally know to be decent, community minded and selfless, I gotta tell ya, it really gets my goat. I get a little angry when someone tries to pass themselves off as the local expert on our firefighters union because they caught a showing of “Hoffa” on TBS.

If one has an opinion contrary to mine, wonderful. It would be a pretty boring planet if everyone were just like me. However, stating something as fact which is obviously your opinion is intentionally inflammatory and is also obviously intended to make someone believe something which you do not know to be true or possibly make someone believe something that you know is untrue. And I take issue with that.

However, I will try to play nice from now on. Thank you.

Watcher,

Thank you for your post.

I would like to point out though, SWFD is South Walton Fire District. Nothing I have written herein is on behalf of this governmental entity.

I am the President of South Walton Professional Firefighters Assoc. Our organization (though all of our members are employed by SWFD) is independent of SWFD and does not represent in any way the management or elected officials of SWFD.

Thanks again for your support of our rights.

Go Ask

I appreciate you posting on this site.

I feel you are getting the wrong idea. This is a place for back and forth. No reason to get defensive. Just because someone questions you, it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't on your side, even if they aren't voting for the same candidate as yourself. Remain calm and respond reasonably with the facts and you will be fine. Saying things like, "that's all I have to say", or using terms like "wicthhunt" are defensive, reactionary, and over the top. They make you seem a bit unreasonable.

I see nothing wrong with your process. It sounds like one candidate didn't return the questionnaire (I bet he wishes he had) so he didn't get the invite. I'll bet there was some communication lacking by one or more parties, or miscommunication. Maybe egos came into play? I don't doubt that you have a fine organization and have the public's best interests at heart.

Believe me when I say this thread is helping me to decide whom to vote for. We might have common interests and goals. I certainly agree with your premise about elected officials serving the public instead of the other way around. Flexibility, compromise, and negotiation are not dirty words but rather necessary qualities for the BCC and you seem to understand that.

If one wants the endorsement or support of a Union, they go ASK for it. The Union does not go out looking, begging for someone to ask them to support them. If a candidate dropped the ball, which they did, then it is on them for their own poor planning, poor communication and poor follow up. Those traits sound like things a good Sheriff should possess. The milk has been spilled, no more crying please. Move along, nothing to see here.

To all who have concerns:

SWFD is one of the best Fire Departments in the area, let alone the State. It is no surprise that certain candidates (via their supporters) are crying about the SWFD endorsing Tom Cooper for Sheriff instead of their candidate. Much of this is due to the vibe on the street that certain candidates do not have as much support as once thought. So, naturally, panic sets in...

First, SWFD Union is NO DIFFERENT than an independant voter, such as myself. I have not set forth my support to any one candidate, so maybe that's a difference... Either way, who the union endorses is their business. I am so sorry that a few candidates want to dispute the decision of these fine men and women. (I've always said, that I'd rather have to call the FD then the SO to help me. The FD has stopped to change my tire, SO drives on by...)

Candidates and supporters of the candidates - get over it. SWFD has placed its support with Tom Cooper. You can complain about the signs and that you don't like the color, etc, etc, etc. You sound silly and you make your candidate look bad as you focus on appearance instead of context. Why don't you focus your attention on the Bay County Fire Department, maybe they can endorse someone... That wouldn't matter much would it?

Relationships, like that of SWFD and local businesses, neighborhoods and resorts do not happen overnight, they are built. They don't pass around $500 checks and gain support with the stroke of a pen and an open ended promise of "favors". They are cultivated, earned and then respected. This is based on years of PARTNERSHIPS. Those partnerships, in turn, mean support and in this case an endorsement.

Please stop questioning the reasons behind the SWFD's endorsement of Tom Cooper. They must feel he is the best man for the job. Move on and find someother reason to complain.

w

Sorry for the ?defensiveness?.

When someone starts spouting pure uneducated, ignorant, and inflammatory rhetoric as fact in an apparent attempt to somehow damage the credibility of a group of people that I personally know to be decent, community minded and selfless, I gotta tell ya, it really gets my goat. I get a little angry when someone tries to pass themselves off as the local expert on our firefighters union because they caught a showing of ?Hoffa? on TBS.

If one has an opinion contrary to mine, wonderful. It would be a pretty boring planet if everyone were just like me. However, stating something as fact which is obviously your opinion is intentionally inflammatory and is also obviously intended to make someone believe something which you do not know to be true or possibly make someone believe something that you know is untrue. And I take issue with that.

However, I will try to play nice from now on. Thank you.

Just wanted to point out that no one has yet explained a positive reason to vote for Mr. Braunstein or Mr. Cooper.

Firefighters support simply isn't enough to sway me, as I am not a firefighter. I might be swayed by a reason for support, but without specific reasons I consider the endorsement meaningless -- which disappoints me.

For the Record

Watcher,

Thank you for your post.

I would like to point out though, SWFD is South Walton Fire District. Nothing I have written herein is on behalf of this governmental entity.

I am the President of South Walton Professional Firefighters Assoc. Our organization (though all of our members are employed by SWFD) is independent of SWFD and does not represent in any way the management or elected officials of SWFD.

Thanks again for your support of our rights.

My mistake (which I apologize for). Please refer to any of my references to SWFD to have been meant to be listed as SWPFA (Union).

Negative Nancy

Just wanted to point out that no one has yet explained a positive reason to vote for Mr. Braunstein or Mr. Cooper.

Firefighters support simply isn't enough to sway me, as I am not a firefighter. I might be swayed by a reason for support, but without specific reasons I consider the endorsement meaningless -- which disappoints me.

No one here needs to point out anything. There are dozens of other posts on SoWal, weighing the pros and cons of the candidates. This is about one Union and their right to endorse whomever they want. They do not answer to you or to me, they answer to themselves, thus the UNION. I am sorry that your candidate did not get this groups support, move along, nothing to see here.

So who exactly is crying over spilled milk because Tom got the endorsement of the firefighters? Heck, I'd be shocked and surprised if he didn't.

No one here needs to point out anything. There are dozens of other posts on SoWal, weighing the pros and cons of the candidates. This is about one Union and their right to endorse whomever they want. They do not answer to you or to me, they answer to themselves, thus the UNION. I am sorry that your candidate did not get this groups support, move along, nothing to see here.

Watcher,

It says you've been a SoWal.com member for a year. If you have been a "watcher" of Punzy's posts all that time I doubt you would still be calling her negative. While she isn't shy about stating her opinion (thank goodness)- she is one of the most open to the opposing ones that I have seen on this board. She regularly seeks first to understand before being understood. She is about as close as one can be to fair and consistent, IMHO...

Anyway, I feel the need to stick up for her and for anyone else reading along on this thread who don't care to "move along" because we are interested to know why the union endorsed certain candidates. We see this as something of substance and I personally find it a bit odd that the question makes you defensive...

If you choose not to answer then don't. No worries. But hopefully someone else will- so stick around. There might still be something to see here...



G

To my knowledge, SWFD is not nor will it be "involved" in any political action. This is so because of the Hatch Act. SWFD is funded by ad valorem tax dollars.

South Walton Professional Firefighters Association is the labor organization whose members are the men and women on the ambulances and fire trucks and are employed by SWFD. These two organizations are mutually exclusive. South Walton Professional Firefighters Assoc. and their and interests are funded solely by membership dues and participation.

South Walton Fire District cannot legally "strike a deal" in support or opposition of any candidate. This would be in violation of the Hatch Act.

This, along with other posts, tries to separate SWFD from these endorsements. If this is the case, then please tell us why Tom Cooper seems to think SWFD is the one endorsing him?

He even paid for the signs. http://www.voterfocus.com/ws/WScand... - 7/18/2008) &rellevel=4&dhc=399&committee=N

See line 21 under expenditures, on 7/17/2008 - "SWFD Endorsement signs"

If political action is prohibited, it would seem Mr. Cooper may have a misunderstanding about who endorsed him, or SWFD may be more involved than is indicated.

Did you send this questionaire to ALL the candidates?? including ALL the candidates for Sheriff??

A question,
does Mr. Cooper. (who served on earlier SWFD boards) have his police standards up to date?

First, let me say that I fully support anyone's, and group's, and even any union's decision to vote and campaign for candidates. One of the issues of concern, per the firefighter's post, dealt with an individual's right to campaign as he or she sees fit. The law is the law, and the candidates running in this local election cannot change it, whether or not it is right or wrong. Personally, I have no concern in their choice to support one person over the other. I will add that I could care less which Sheriff candidate your union supports, unlike someone said.

Second, I stand by my statement that by belonging to an organization doesn't mean that one agrees with the group. My example of ECAR shows that. ECAR will endorse candidates, and I am a member of ECAR, but that doesn't mean that I support the same candidates.

Thirdly, your website details how the union determines which candidates you endorse, but that is obviously not correct, and that is why I posed the question, which remains unanswered. Holding a note card questionnaire with a candidate's responses, according to your website, is not how you determine your candidate of choice, yet it is how you say you determined the candidates whom you endorse. Select your choice as you see fit, but don't try to tell us one thing, while your website says something to the contrary.

Lastly, it is my understanding that you wouldn't allow Alan the follow-up questions to best answer your questionnaire. You may find that he would have been the most supportive of the emergency/rescue services, yet rather than give him the chance, you have chosen to support another candidate, who may not be as supportive. That seems rather crazy, IMO. On a similar note, do I correctly understand that you never even delivered a questionnaire to candidate Bob Hudson (BCC, District 5)? I understand that you had candidates sign for the questionnaires, and that would mean that if he signed, you have proof that he received the questions and was given the opportunity to reply. My information is second-hand, and may be incorrect. Will you please set that record straight?

We gave a questionnaire to every candidate who asked for our support.

A question,
does Mr. Cooper. (who served on earlier SWFD boards) have his police standards up to date?

Yes

Again;

Each of these candidates did their own research and answered the questions to the best of their ability. This is how we have always done it. It would not be fair to provide "questionnaire aid" to any individual candidate.

Asking for clarification did not disqualify a person for participating. Not submitting the completed questionnaire did. This was not a "public candidate's forum?. Our meetings are not public. One must be a member or be invited. To be invited this particular meeting one must first complete the questionnaire and submit it. Every other candidate did this....

We gave a questionnaire to every candidate who asked for our support.

This is confusing and sounds contradictory, but I'm not surprised given the other contradictions I've read.

First, let me say that I fully support anyone's, and group's, and even any union's decision to vote and campaign for candidates. One of the issues of concern, per the firefighter's post, dealt with an individual's right to campaign as he or she sees fit. The law is the law, and the candidates running in this local election cannot change it, whether or not it is right or wrong. Personally, I have no concern in their choice to support one person over the other. I will add that I could care less which Sheriff candidate your union supports, unlike someone said.

Second, I stand by my statement that by belonging to an organization doesn't mean that one agrees with the group. My example of ECAR shows that. ECAR will endorse candidates, and I am a member of ECAR, but that doesn't mean that I support the same candidates.

Thirdly, your website details how the union determines which candidates you endorse, but that is obviously not correct, and that is why I posed the question, which remains unanswered. Holding a note card questionnaire with a candidate's responses, according to your website, is not how you determine your candidate of choice, yet it is how you say you determined the candidates whom you endorse. Select your choice as you see fit, but don't try to tell us one thing, while your website says something to the contrary.

Lastly, it is my understanding that you wouldn't allow Alan the follow-up questions to best answer your questionnaire. You may find that he would have been the most supportive of the emergency/rescue services, yet rather than give him the chance, you have chosen to support another candidate, who may not be as supportive. That seems rather crazy, IMO. On a similar note, do I correctly understand that you never even delivered a questionnaire to candidate Bob Hudson (BCC, District 5)? I understand that you had candidates sign for the questionnaires, and that would mean that if he signed, you have proof that he received the questions and was given the opportunity to reply. My information is second-hand, and may be incorrect. Will you please set that record straight?

First - Thank you for supporting "even any union's" rights. (makes me wonder how you feel about ethnic groups)

Second - The difference between your groups and mine is that my "group" is called a "Union". The members of my group act as one (a unit, unified, together, Union) on any issue that you will ever be aware of. We thought so much of this ideal that we put it in our by-laws. We are more than just a business consort. We are not a social club. We are a brotherhood who trust each other with our lives. Our profession demands this. It's a firefighter thing. I don't expect you to understand.

Thirdly - I copied and pasted the text from our website to this board.

Lastly - (and I have answered this question at least once) We are not against Mr. Osborne. You may be entirely right. We may well have found that he would be more supportive of us. However, the reason he did not get our endorsement is that he would not complete the questionnaire as all the other candidates did without special treatment in the form us helping them answer the questions on our questionnaire. We have nothing against Mr. Osborne. If the majority of the voters put their faith in him, then he will have proven himself to be the best candidate for the position. Firefighters are Americans. We believe in the process.

And let's be clear. We are not hassling you about your choice. (I guess all the candidates you are backing completed your selection process to your satisfaction). So don't try to make our selection process seem invalid.

I am beginning to wonder what your real interest in this is. You seem awfully intent on diminishing any support for any candidate other than your own.

Do you own property in Driftwood Estates?

Sounds straight forward to me....I don't understand why you don't get it, SJ. What is confusing you?

Candidates that asked for support, were invited to the private forum, after completing and returning a questionaire. Those candidates were asked further questions at the forum by the union members. The union then decided on a candidate that would support them on issues that concern them. They were given a certificate of support from the union.

Despite implications to the contrary, I am not a Negative Nancy. I prefer to be known as Punzy Positive. I actually was hoping for some more information on what prompted the endorsement. Trust me, I didn't realize this was such a messy process. Bygones...

Anyone know which candidates the union has endorsed in the past? Do they have a history of endorsing quality candidates? Was I wrong to assume the endorsements would carry a lot of weight?

First - Thank you for supporting "even any union's" rights. (makes me wonder how you feel about ethnic groups)

Second - The difference between your groups and mine is that my "group" is called a "Union". The members of my group act as one (a unit, unified, together, Union) on any issue that you will ever be aware of. We thought so much of this ideal that we put it in our by-laws. We are more than just a business consort. We are not a social club. We are a brotherhood who trust each other with our lives. Our profession demands this. It's a firefighter thing. I don't expect you to understand.

Thirdly - I copied and pasted the text from our website to this board.

Lastly - (and I have answered this question at least once) We are not against Mr. Osborne. You may be entirely right. We may well have found that he would be more supportive of us. However, the reason he did not get our endorsement is that he would not complete the questionnaire as all the other candidates did without special treatment in the form us helping them answer the questions on our questionnaire. We have nothing against Mr. Osborne. If the majority of the voters put their faith in him, then he will have proven himself to be the best candidate for the position. Firefighters are Americans. We believe in the process.

And let's be clear. We are not hassling you about your choice. (I guess all the candidates you are backing completed your selection process to your satisfaction). So don't try to make our selection process seem invalid.

I am beginning to wonder what your real interest in this is. You seem awfully intent on diminishing any support for any candidate other than your own.

Do you own property in Driftwood Estates?

We all want the same thing.
1. An understanding of the issues you based your endorsement upon.
2. A statement regarding why you feel the candidates you endorsed would be the best people to represent your members and, one would hope, the people of Walton County.
That is all anyone ever asked for....

Unfortunately, I think this thread has raised a lot of questions rather than shed any light. I thank you for posting, but urge you to realize that the people posting are not attacking, but trying to redirect back to the two questions above. If the criteria the union uses to endorse is confidential and you do not wish to disclose it, then it might be better to just state that. I may have made up my mind regarding a candidate, but I assure you that a great many more have not, and this thread is an opportunity to reach them.

Just look at the number of views to get an idea how many are reading this, but not posting.

I asked several times what the specific issues I should support for this election were and didn't ever get an answer so............

Way to reach the undecided voters and make your voice heard!