I think a lot of us are working hard in the public and private sectors to help Walton County. Copied below is the content of an e-mail I just sent out yesterday afternoon to some folks I know, describing just one of the efforts I'm involved with (I'm not sure I can attach the news story though -- it's in today's Breeze-Herald and will be on their website next week I suppose).
I believe our Comp Plan is of enormous importance in determining the economic future of the county, and I believe applying a transect-based approach to planning will result in the greatest good for the greatest number of people. I intend to post information resources soon, for anyone wanting to learn more. For now, check www.mississippirenewal.com where you can see a 2-minute youtube about the Smart Code as it's being applied to rebuild the Mississippi Gulf Coast. And if you REALLY want to get into a lot of detail, read Retrofitting Suburbia by Ellen Dunham Jones (pretty technical but well researched; much of the information applies directly to our situation here). Here's the e-mail:
Good news: I'm attaching a story scanned from this week's DeFuniak Herald-Breeze, about the Planning Commission's unanimous recommendation that the BCC direct Planning Department staff to explore countywide transect-based planning.
Better news: so far, every voice I've heard -- from Planning Department staff, Planning Commissioners, citizens, environmentalists, architects, planners, developers, land use attorneys, and concerned citizens -- is that this is the direction we need to be going in. Applying this approach in Walton County will remediate many problems while creating the kinds of communities our citizens have repeatedly said they want, in various broad visioning processes over many years. The transect approach will protect agricultural and environmentally sensitive areas and improve the quality of life for people living and working in the built environment.
Even better news: the all-volunteer team who wrote the report that started all this (attached) are now creating an educational presentation that explains the basics of transect-based planning, or Smart Codes. Their presentation will be shown publicly in several locations throughout the county; it may also be available for viewing online, for those who cannot attend the public presentations.
Once dates and locations for the presentations are set, details will be publicized widely. I will certainly put this and related information on my Facebook page, and invite you all to check there often. If I can figure out how, I might even start a Facebook transect "cause" and invite you all to join!
I encourage you to investigate this for yourselves, and attend the public presentations. There, you will have the opportunity to ask questions and get answers directly from the authors of the plan. The experience, creativity, talent and skill of this group is enormous, inspiring and synergistic they deserve our thanks for their contribution to the future of Walton County.
Thanks very much for your time and interest.
Susan Horn
www.artisan-builds.com
Replies
73
Beach Fanatic
The biggest obstacle to the "Transect-Based New Urbanist" trend is going to be changing the mindset of the folks who can afford to buy into these contrived urban developments--most are into "no thru street, cul-du-sac, gated communities." In a place where folks are anal-retentive about their zipcode, I think you've got a hardsell on your hands.
.
Contrived is probably an accurate description, meaning that New Urbanist towns are deliberately created instead of spontaneously created.
As far as a hard sell goes, I believe we may be surprised to discover some and maybe many folks want something other than what leads to more sprawl.
Certainly, gated communities and cul-du-secs will not vanish from the built landscape and most definitely, there will still be a place for people who wish to live in that type of community. I see transect planning as common sense or the natural evolution of the built environment we experience. It's a contrived way of arranging people on the landscape that has the ability to bring us closer to living more sustainably.
SoWal Insider
It's a contrived way of arranging people on the landscape that has the ability to bring us closer to living more sustainably.
What do you envision to be the economic engine that is going to provide the salaries for people to live in these contrived communities?
I've just got to ask--is the ultimate goal a sales pitch to the county to provide some sort of funding for consultation on "New Urbanist" planning? Or is the goal just to put new zoning in place to accommodate this plan for the future with no cost to the taxpayer.
Funding marketers, visionaries, architects and consultants to generate story boards, draw plans, and build "gee-whiz" models of these "Transect-Based New Urbanist" towns before there is a sustainable industry to support the folks who are to populate the towns is, in my opinion, putting the cart before the horse and not the best use of taxpayer money at this juncture.
Edited
Banned
I'm with Shellster on that. So long as the full agenda is out and there's no money trail I'm very pro smart development. I've been to many charette's, but none that weren't sponsored by a salesperson.
The big question to be answered is: How are property rights for existing and proposed non-conforming uses going to be dealt with? Will the variance dilute the thesis?
The big question to be answered is: How are property rights for existing and proposed non-conforming uses going to be dealt with? Will the variance dilute the thesis?
Beach Fanatic
You know, it's kinda funny, long ago when I was growing up...DeFuniak Springs was such a place. There was a town center which had wonderful little shops, a bank, grocery story, hardware store, doctors office and hospital...there was a library and a school, restuarants and (before I was growing up) a grand hotel and a few smaller hotels...there was even a train and train station that worked.
There were houses and a few apts...and all of this was within walking distance!
Then, came interstate highways and shopping malls/strip malls...
interesting how things that used to be, are now being reinvented and called new.
I would love to see small towns like DeFuniak come back--and more towns like that built...I hope this movement has a positive effect on Walton County...and like Shelly I'd like to see the Economic Development section of the plan included.
There were houses and a few apts...and all of this was within walking distance!
Then, came interstate highways and shopping malls/strip malls...
interesting how things that used to be, are now being reinvented and called new.
I would love to see small towns like DeFuniak come back--and more towns like that built...I hope this movement has a positive effect on Walton County...and like Shelly I'd like to see the Economic Development section of the plan included.
Beach Fanatic
What do you envision to be the economic engine that is going to provide the salaries for people to live in these contrived communities?
I don't have the answer to that, but I believe this county has a lot of potential and my understanding is that transect based planning will encourage and provide support for economic development.
I've just got to ask--is the ultimate goal a sales pitch to the county to provide some sort of funding for consultation on "New Urbanist" planning? Or is the goal just to put new zoning in place to accommodate this plan for the future with no cost to the taxpayer.
Again, I don't know the answer to that either. What I do know is that the county is in the process of amending the EAR and a group of concerned citizens have gathered together voluntarily to offer comments and suggestions to the Planning Department about incorporating transect based planning into the Comp. Plan and Land Development Code. The goal was to take this opportunity of down time to plan for the future growth of Walton County. Implementing a transect based plan could be done over a period of time. I have to ask, when would you suggest that the Planning Department begin planning for the future?
Funding marketers, visionaries, architects and consultants to generate story boards, draw plans, and build "gee-whiz" models of these "Transect-Based New Urbanist" towns before there is a sustainable industry to support the folks who are to populate the towns is, in my opinion, putting the cart before the horse and not the best use of taxpayer money at this juncture.
I see it as sort of a chicken and egg thing. Without the infrastructure in place to support public transit, work force housing, and daily needs, why would any industry locate here?
beats on hood
If you are looking for "real" places using this concept, Montgomery, AL and Pike Road, AL (just east of Montgomery) have both recently adopted the SmartCode, a particular version of a transect-based code.What's the plan for Pike Road? All I see happening there lately are a CVS at the corner of Pike and Vaughn, a strip mall just behind it on Vaughn, a road widening at that intersection, and several ranches being turned into subdivisions (essentially large cul-de-sacs).
And the deterioration of Urban Grace.
Oh, and a new windsock at Bartlett International Airport.
;-)
Admin
You know, it's kinda funny, long ago when I was growing up...DeFuniak Springs was such a place. There was a town center which had wonderful little shops, a bank, grocery story, hardware store, doctors office and hospital...there was a library and a school, restuarants and (before I was growing up) a grand hotel and a few smaller hotels...there was even a train and train station that worked.
There were houses and a few apts...and all of this was within walking distance!
Then, came interstate highways and shopping malls/strip malls...
interesting how things that used to be, are now being reinvented and called new.
I would love to see small towns like DeFuniak come back--and more towns like that built...I hope this movement has a positive effect on Walton County...and like Shelly I'd like to see the Economic Development section of the plan included.
Very good observations. New urbanists will sometimes say that what they do is really "old urbanism", albeit for modern times. The old small towns have mostly disappeared due to population growth and shifts, but they are still out there, and new ones are being created.
I don't know if the term "new urbanism" can live on because of the association with places like Seaside, but the consepts are true. The recent model of sprawl and consumption can not continue, and population will continue to rise while resources dwindle. There are no easy answers, but there is plenty of good work being done out there by very knowledgeable people.
Beach Crab
transect based planning and agriculture
Hi Susan,
The second link in your post goes to an out of date table - it's from 2003. For the latest initiatives on Agriculture see these two links:
Center for Applied Transect Studies (scroll down to bottom preview of ongoing work- enlarge the image and note agriculture sprinkled throughout the community, its form dependent on the character of the Transect Zone)
and here
SmartCode Central (The Module package includes a page called Food Production with a basic correlation to the transect.)
Also, just to respond quickly to a few other comments on the forum, this kind of planning isn't just for new communities. At least half of the projects done by new urbanists are infill. Many of the codes they write are protective of existing character, whether it is rural character or urban character or walkable sub-urban. (We use that hyphen to distinguish between suburban sprawl patterns and a sub-urban but walkable area that is close to mixed use.)
Regarding employment, yes, access to employment is critical. You might want to look at a regional sector plan where a Toyota plant landed in 80 sq miles of ag land in an annexed area of San Antonio. The map shows 48 Community Units to accommodate all the projected growth in that area so it didn't end up as sprawl, gobbling up all the ag land. The communities are located along existing roads and rail lines for the most part. Look for San Antonio City South here:
Center for Applied Transect Studies
There are other Sector plans on that page. Good luck with your efforts! It's a beautiful area- a cousin of mine retired to a pecan farm near DeFuniak Springs.
Cheers,
Sandy
PS The things that are "new" about new urbanism include accommodating the car without destroying the pedestrian public space (not an easy task) and adapting the new zoning codes to energy-efficient technologies, light imprint infrastructure, and more.
2 pages on transect and comprehensive environmental management
http://www.smartcodecomplete.com/documents/article_MiltRhodes.pdf
2 pages on transect as it relates to agriculture at varying scales. From what I?ve heard at recent Planning Commission meetings about the proposed FLUE (Future Land Use Element of Comp Plan) amendment, there is strong and very valid concern in the agricultural areas of Walton County about protecting farms and farmers from incursion, especially by residential development, and the inevitable complaints about spraying, dust, noise, farm odors, night harvesting, etc.
http://www.placemakers.com/library/AgriculturalTransect.pdf
Hi Susan,
The second link in your post goes to an out of date table - it's from 2003. For the latest initiatives on Agriculture see these two links:
Center for Applied Transect Studies (scroll down to bottom preview of ongoing work- enlarge the image and note agriculture sprinkled throughout the community, its form dependent on the character of the Transect Zone)
and here
SmartCode Central (The Module package includes a page called Food Production with a basic correlation to the transect.)
Also, just to respond quickly to a few other comments on the forum, this kind of planning isn't just for new communities. At least half of the projects done by new urbanists are infill. Many of the codes they write are protective of existing character, whether it is rural character or urban character or walkable sub-urban. (We use that hyphen to distinguish between suburban sprawl patterns and a sub-urban but walkable area that is close to mixed use.)
Regarding employment, yes, access to employment is critical. You might want to look at a regional sector plan where a Toyota plant landed in 80 sq miles of ag land in an annexed area of San Antonio. The map shows 48 Community Units to accommodate all the projected growth in that area so it didn't end up as sprawl, gobbling up all the ag land. The communities are located along existing roads and rail lines for the most part. Look for San Antonio City South here:
Center for Applied Transect Studies
There are other Sector plans on that page. Good luck with your efforts! It's a beautiful area- a cousin of mine retired to a pecan farm near DeFuniak Springs.
Cheers,
Sandy
PS The things that are "new" about new urbanism include accommodating the car without destroying the pedestrian public space (not an easy task) and adapting the new zoning codes to energy-efficient technologies, light imprint infrastructure, and more.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Sandy,
Thanks for bringing out the newer information. There's so much out there, it's hard to keep up, especially when one is doing all this in one's "spare time" (that would be Yours Truly). But I'm not complaining. I love it that there is so much information about this at our fingertips, just for the googling.
Thanks for bringing out the newer information. There's so much out there, it's hard to keep up, especially when one is doing all this in one's "spare time" (that would be Yours Truly). But I'm not complaining. I love it that there is so much information about this at our fingertips, just for the googling.
Beach Fanatic
Perhaps I need to do more homework to better understand all the intents of New urban design and its relationship to Transect Based Planning or perhaps it is because of what I have seen in this particular area. I cannot help but feel that these concepts target a wealthy, second home or vacation neighborhood versus common people primary residence.
Shelly, could this be where you are going with your questions about where will the people inhabiting these communities get their income. I sense that people cannot afford to live in these communities until their income is well into 6 figures and this isn't the mean income of most families. You're not going to make six figures selling candles or ice-cream.
I think my Wife and I might enjoy living in one of these communities, but I'd need to know it actually wasn't just a vacation destination, because a continued party atmosphere would get old. I'd want to know there will be many quiet evenings to sit out on the porch and enjoy the weather or to go for a stroll.
Shelly, could this be where you are going with your questions about where will the people inhabiting these communities get their income. I sense that people cannot afford to live in these communities until their income is well into 6 figures and this isn't the mean income of most families. You're not going to make six figures selling candles or ice-cream.
I think my Wife and I might enjoy living in one of these communities, but I'd need to know it actually wasn't just a vacation destination, because a continued party atmosphere would get old. I'd want to know there will be many quiet evenings to sit out on the porch and enjoy the weather or to go for a stroll.
SoWal Insider
Shelly, could this be where you are going with your questions about where will the people inhabiting these communities get their income. I sense that people cannot afford to live in these communities until their income is well into 6 figures and this isn't the mean income of most families. You're not going to make six figures selling candles or ice-cream.
I think my Wife and I might enjoy living in one of these communities, but I'd need to know it actually wasn't just a vacation destination, because a continued party atmosphere would get old. I'd want to know there will be many quiet evenings to sit out on the porch and enjoy the weather or to go for a stroll.
I'm just trying to nail down the aims of this latest "New Urbanist" movement.
I believe the volunteer group's heart is in the right place--they're trying to establish a working-living town, with a town center, schools and jobs--a place where the teachers and shopkeepers can afford to buy a home and raise their kids, as well as the doctor, lawyer and injun chief (in larger homes with GCT & SSA of course)...and none have to drive a car to shop, work or play if they don't want to.
Sadly, what begins as a dream of average folks--with the backing of larger groups who like to use lots of mumbo-jumbo verbiage in describing their "vision"--turns into a sales pitch to counties to extract taxpayer dollars. The money goes to pay out-of-work architects and "consultants" to produce whiz-bang presentations of toon-town villages whose only means of revenue generation is (a) some pie-in-the-sky dream of a major industry relocating to the panhandle of Florida; or (b) the very same bunch of rich people that every other Toon-Town visionary is pulling out of their arses.
There appears to be an entire industry whose purpose is to provide workshops, books, training and consulting services for "Urbanism" and "Placemaking," and pitching these concepts to cities and towns across the US. Although I believe in theory their concepts are sound, in practice and especially in light of the new global economy, they are merely a revenue generator for the "Ism-industry."
The county already has more than its share of "contrived" communities, with faux downtowns and villages. Instead of thowing time and money away developing and producing a stack of brand new zoning regulations that will end up gathering dust on the shelf waiting for Microsoft to relocate to the coastal area of Florida :roll:--the money and time could be better used to fix the problems that we've got NOW.
Until the people who are pitching this dream can express their aim in a single sentence or two--AND in simple words so that the average person can grasp the concept and relative successful outcome of such a plan--I'll remain skeptical.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Shelly, I can appreciate your skepticism. Perhaps there is a way for Walton County to plan for future growth (or prolonged contraction) of rural areas and towns where people can afford to live and have easy access to jobs, schools, etc., without using taxpayer money to pay out-of-work architects and consultants, while simultaneously creating diverse local economies.
I would like to extend an invitation to you and the lurkers of this thread, who have great ideas and problem solving skills, to please come out and get involved in any number of community organizations or grass roots efforts underway to create this place we dream of. There probably won?t be a Toyota, a Microsoft, or any other mega-employer moving to the Gulf Coast. We simply have to change the way we live and the sooner we get on with it, the better life will be.
I would like to extend an invitation to you and the lurkers of this thread, who have great ideas and problem solving skills, to please come out and get involved in any number of community organizations or grass roots efforts underway to create this place we dream of. There probably won?t be a Toyota, a Microsoft, or any other mega-employer moving to the Gulf Coast. We simply have to change the way we live and the sooner we get on with it, the better life will be.
SoWal Insider
I would like to extend an invitation to you and the lurkers of this thread, who have great ideas and problem solving skills, to please come out and get involved in any number of community organizations or grass roots efforts underway to create this place we dream of.
...what if the place that you dream of isn't the place that I dream of?
.
Beach Fanatic
...what if the place that you dream of isn't the place that I dream of?
.
Well, I see that once again my idealistic self went posting on SoWal, without consulting my realistic self. Thanks for pointing that out because you're question is of course valid. I'm reminded that not everyone dreams of living in or near a place that offers a diverse economy, easily accessible live/ work options, community, and access to preserved or agricultural land. Fair enough.
Going back to the idea of implementing a transect based plan in Walton County, without all the mumbo-jumbo industry speak. A transect based plan is simply a way to reduce compatability issues and plan for future growth by putting in place the structure to allow a region to grow organically in a way that will reduce sprawl and preserve green spaces and farm land among other things listed previously by other posters. It doesn't mean that everyone lives in a "contrived" toon town. The county doesn't even have to spend any more time or money than they are already allotted for amending the Comprehensive Plan and the Land Use Development Code. No need to reinvent the wheel. There are plenty of examples of these plans out there, just pick one and implement.
SoWal Expert
You know, it's kinda funny, long ago when I was growing up...DeFuniak Springs was such a place. There was a town center which had wonderful little shops, a bank, grocery story, hardware store, doctors office and hospital...there was a library and a school, restuarants and (before I was growing up) a grand hotel and a few smaller hotels...there was even a train and train station that worked.A large part of smart planning is reversing the decisions of gov't planners - who made major roads one-way to facilitate the fleeing to the suburbs from the cities at 5:01 pm, bulldozed amazing buildings for parking lots, and gave tax credits to sprawl big box stores while they didn't fix the potholes on main street.
There were houses and a few apts...and all of this was within walking distance!
Then, came interstate highways and shopping malls/strip malls...
interesting how things that used to be, are now being reinvented and called new.
I would love to see small towns like DeFuniak come back--and more towns like that built...I hope this movement has a positive effect on Walton County...and like Shelly I'd like to see the Economic Development section of the plan included.
Beach Fanatic
The problem I see with this idea is that it generally isn't handicapped friendly. DeFuniak was mentioned; yes easy to get anywhere by car, or by golf cart! You could drive up to the front door, walk 5 steps, and you're in the building! Those who couldn't see well enough could drive a golf cart anywhere. Handicapped, senior citizen, mom with babies, friendly! Seaside is not so friendly, if you have difficulty walking, you're stuck, much less with a baby with lots of stuff to carry. It seems that they have utilized every square inch of land for turning a dollar. Remember the parking lot they used to have? Using the county easement for parking is just cheap.
Then, the issue of finding the businesses to fill the slots of the plan. Takes away independent choice of what the individual wants to do with their life and property. Too much government control over private citizens. Economy is bad enough without some authority telling citizens what kind of business they can have and where!
Then, the issue of finding the businesses to fill the slots of the plan. Takes away independent choice of what the individual wants to do with their life and property. Too much government control over private citizens. Economy is bad enough without some authority telling citizens what kind of business they can have and where!
SoWal Expert
New Urbanism houses are not any less handicapped friendly than other residences and any commercial use must comply with ADA. The communities are designed using distances an average person can comfortably walk to get places. Don't confuse lazy w/ unwalkable. Many people who live in cities walk much further than that every day while toting their groceries, kids etc.
People who complain about 5 steps to get into a house are S.O.L. since those 5 steps lead to a 2 or 3 story house. :roll:
People who complain about 5 steps to get into a house are S.O.L. since those 5 steps lead to a 2 or 3 story house. :roll:
Beach Fanatic
New Urbanism houses are not any less handicapped friendly than other residences and any commercial use must comply with ADA. The communities are designed using distances an average person can comfortably walk to get places. Don't confuse lazy w/ unwalkable. Many people who live in cities walk much further than that every day while toting their groceries, kids etc.
People who complain about 5 steps to get into a house are S.O.L. since those 5 steps lead to a 2 or 3 story house. :roll:
I wasn't comparing with a city, or a multiple story house.
SoWal Expert
Alrighty then - you have to climb several steps to get into most trailers too! 
Beach Fanatic
You know, after taking care of an elderly family member for years, stairs weren't friendly either. A couple of steps with a guard rail were about all they could do. I did know someone who had to sit down and slide up the steps! The counsel on aging built a ramp to assist.
SWGB
The problem I see with this idea is that it generally isn't handicapped friendly. DeFuniak was mentioned; yes easy to get anywhere by car, or by golf cart! You could drive up to the front door, walk 5 steps, and you're in the building! Those who couldn't see well enough could drive a golf cart anywhere. Handicapped, senior citizen, mom with babies, friendly! Seaside is not so friendly, if you have difficulty walking, you're stuck, much less with a baby with lots of stuff to carry. It seems that they have utilized every square inch of land for turning a dollar. Remember the parking lot they used to have? Using the county easement for parking is just cheap.
Then, the issue of finding the businesses to fill the slots of the plan. Takes away independent choice of what the individual wants to do with their life and property. Too much government control over private citizens. Economy is bad enough without some authority telling citizens what kind of business they can have and where!
I've seen numerous handicapped parking spots in Seaside and every commercial building has at least a ramp. Care to point out some examples?
As for being stuck with a baby have you been to Seaside in the last 10 years? I would say it probably has the most visitors with babies in almost all of South Walton. In fact I have never come close to running over a stroller with a baby in it outside of Seaside.
SoWal Insider
In fact I have never come close to running over a stroller with a baby in it outside of Seaside.
...how many baby strollers have you run over in Seaside?
.
Beach Fanatic
A large part of smart planning is reversing the decisions of gov't planners - who made major roads one-way to facilitate the fleeing to the suburbs from the cities at 5:01 pm, bulldozed amazing buildings for parking lots, and gave tax credits to sprawl big box stores while they didn't fix the potholes on main street.
Yes, and if this group can work with Walton County government to affect some of these kinds of reversals around here, it would be great.
I was dismayed when the historical building was bulldozed up in DeFuniak to make a parking lot....an example of the mind set that has allowed concrete and asphalt to take over our towns and fields.
The other day, as I drove down Nursery Road past the property that Mrs. Kellogg donated to the County for a nature preserve, I was dismayed to see that one of the first things to be done is: to pave a parking lot!
And yet, less than a half mile away Chat Holley road is a disgrace because no pot holes are filled, no white lines painted...the paving which needs to be done on the road, is done, instead, on a nature preserve!
I lived for many years in Tallahassee and one of the things I love most about that city are the trees--and the tree ordinance that preserves them. I spent many years at the Tallahassee (Junior) Museum with my son and his friends...and there were no paved parking lots...it was a nature preserve and the parking areas were natural....
In order to achieve some of the sense of community that the " new urbanism" promotes, leaders and citizens must have a mindset change...that is what I see missing here as it is in many places across our country.
DeFuniak has the potential to be a beautiful little town...it has all the community things that New Urbanism promotes. Yet, the leaders in the town and county have done little to revive those things that made it a good town to live and grow up in. Even when the basic plan is still there...
and, as someone pointed out in another post, the "powers that be" decide to plant Palm Trees in DeFuniak...and oak trees in Seaside! Maybe the oak trees add to Seaside, I have not seen them yet; but, the Palm Trees do not add anything to DeFuniak IMO. What's wrong with oak, dogwood, magnolia....
We had one of the most beautiful beaches/coastlines in the world here in South Walton, yet the planning and zoning that was allowed to run amok has allowed it to become less than it might have been....and the unintended consequences are abandoned neighborhoods with half finished buildings and empty strip mall stores and and office buildings.
And, for all the visioning that has gone on in the last 10 years, as Shelly says above, there seems to be little actually getting done that follows the so-called vision....
I hope this latest effort makes a difference so that my grandchildren can enjoy living in a place that offers a sense of community, a viable economic structure, and the recreational aspects that make for a balanced life.
Edited
Banned
YouTube - New Urbanism vs. Suburbanism
This way of life is what Osama Bin Laden has been preaching for years. Maybe we Americans really are infidels of nature after all.
Beach Fanatic
I've seen numerous handicapped parking spots in Seaside and every commercial building has at least a ramp. Care to point out some examples?
As for being stuck with a baby have you been to Seaside in the last 10 years? I would say it probably has the most visitors with babies in almost all of South Walton. In fact I have never come close to running over a stroller with a baby in it outside of Seaside.
First, let me say that my kids are 10 months apart, and I pushed a double stroller for what it seams forever! Then the grand idea to take swimming lessons at Seaside. Where to park? That didn't end well.
Checking your forum account
Please wait while we verify your forum account.