The Public Budget hearing has just concluded and in a surprising move they set next years millage rate the same as this years rate.
After a PowerPoint presentation detailing the budget proposal Commissioner Larry Jones made a motion to split the difference between last years rate and the rolback rate which would allow for additional decreases that might occur in the total taxable value and allow for a reduction in the rate if possible before the final rate was set, Commissioner Scott Brannon seconded the motion. After discussion lead by Commissioner Comander and Commissioner Cecilia Jones detailing their opposition to raising taxes - Commissioner Commander called for a vote on the motion and the motion was defeated by a 3-2 vote with Comander,Pridgen and Cecilia Jones voting against and Commissioner Larry Jones and Commissioner Brannon voting in favor of the proposed increase.
Commissioner Cecilia Jones then proposed setting the rate the same as last year and the motion passed by a 5-0 vote.
This action sets the maximum millage rate for the 2009-2010 budget. During the two upcoming public Budget hearings the millage rate can be lowered, but cannot be raised.
We will continue to analyze the budget proposal and present a WCTA analysis of the impact on services and programs in the next few days.
Replies
52
Beach Fanatic
According to the PowerPoint, they are planning on eliminating 10 positions, out of 595. That's 1.6%.
Some of those appear to be open, unfunded positions.
Please consider how much the BCC budget has grown in the last 5 years before you consider these small cuts as doom and gloom. It's just the reality of the economic situation - we are not only going to have to deal with a reduction in property values, but an increase in unpaid property taxes.
Unless the property is not mortgaged, it would seem the Bank would ensure the taxes are paid to prevent the County from selling their property. I would be curious as to how many properties are delinquent and for how long. I think Wrobert brought up something about it in another thread. These small cuts as you call them are peoples lives we are talking about. How much money did you save last year and did it make a tremendous difference in your life?
Beach Fanatic
Unless the property is not mortgaged, it would seem the Bank would ensure the taxes are paid to prevent the County from selling their property. I would be curious as to how many properties are delinquent and for how long. I think Wrobert brought up something about it in another thread. These small cuts as you call them are peoples lives we are talking about. How much money did you save last year and did it make a tremendous difference in your life?
The property can't be sold for taxes if there is a mortgage. The county sells tax certificates on past due taxes, which basically gives you the right to queue up for your money when the property is sold. This year, the number of tax certs was staggering, and they did not all sell. Check the uncollected property tax numbers that the tax collector can provide - they are very up front about it.
It's not about the money I saved; it's about the prospect of the valuations being even lower next year, and the county needing to be ready for that. It's arrogant for the county to just up the millage, because they can, when they need more money. I KNOW these are people's lives we are talking about. In my very, very small neighborhood, many people lost their jobs last year, others are looking at reduced income because of investment returns, and nobody is better off than they were last year. We are all economizing, some of us severely (I am talking about foregoing health insurance and rehoming their pets, not cutting back on dinners at Caliza).
Edited
Beach LoverAuthor
SWFD Ad Valorm Taxes
1998 $ 1,969,916.00
1999 $ 2,354,274.00
2000 $ 2,655,299.00
2001 $ 3,129,681.00
2002 $ 3,745,893.00
2003 $ 4,576,041.00
2004 $ 5,845,037.00
2005 $ 9,664,162.00
2006 $ 12,387,109.00
Between 1998 and 2006 SWFD
Ad Valorem Taxes Increased By +528.18 %
Population Growth +47.69%
Yes they built new stations upgraded their equipment and improved their employee compensation and benefits and improved their service level.
Between 2004 and 2006 their revenues from ad valorem revenue increase by 119.5%.
No one can sustain those levels of increase in a down economy. During those times the revenues we highly inflated due to the "balloon" in values that were driven by speculation.
The WCTA has never promoted a reduction in the level of service for Emergency Services, just a containment of costs for recurring expenses. We reminded those who grew the recurring expenses in proportion to the growth in revenues that it would one day end. That day has arrived.
1998 $ 1,969,916.00
1999 $ 2,354,274.00
2000 $ 2,655,299.00
2001 $ 3,129,681.00
2002 $ 3,745,893.00
2003 $ 4,576,041.00
2004 $ 5,845,037.00
2005 $ 9,664,162.00
2006 $ 12,387,109.00
Between 1998 and 2006 SWFD
Ad Valorem Taxes Increased By +528.18 %
Population Growth +47.69%
Yes they built new stations upgraded their equipment and improved their employee compensation and benefits and improved their service level.
Between 2004 and 2006 their revenues from ad valorem revenue increase by 119.5%.
No one can sustain those levels of increase in a down economy. During those times the revenues we highly inflated due to the "balloon" in values that were driven by speculation.
The WCTA has never promoted a reduction in the level of service for Emergency Services, just a containment of costs for recurring expenses. We reminded those who grew the recurring expenses in proportion to the growth in revenues that it would one day end. That day has arrived.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
As of the end of May, the Tax Collector was reporting 8.8% of the 2008 property taxes are still unpaid.
Beach Fanatic
WCTA I have been talking about the County budget. The services provided by SWFD is something I pay for as well, gladly.
Beach LoverAuthor
WCTA I have been talking about the County budget. The services provided by SWFD is something I pay for as well, gladly.[FONT="]
[/FONT]BCC Property Tax Collections[FONT="]
1998[/FONT] $ 19,359,386.00
1999 $ 22,413.322.00
2000 $ 25,348,536.00
2001 $ 24,721,551.00
2002 $ 29,032,863.00
2003 $ 34,469,108.00
2004 $ 41,656,251.00
2005 $ 55,685,493.00
2006 $ 61,822,498.00
Between 1998 and 2006 BCC Ad valoreum Taxe Revenues Increased +171.27 %
[FONT="]Population Growth +[/FONT]47.69%
Quite a comparison
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Sounds as though increased demand for services for a county that maybe considered rural that had a real estate boom because of it location, I wonder what Counties that don't have the area we have but still have to meet the needs of its citizens. Holmes, Jackson, Washinton counties come to mind. Think about Husfelt, Supt of Schools in Bay said he can justify a tax increase for the schools because he does not want to lay anyone else off obviously even he who ran on trimming the fat can't see himself from cutting off an arm. What was the ad valroem increases for each of those years? Has the level of service increased? Are we receiving more services for the increased amount we are paying? I think these will be the questions answered after we see the decreased services. Based on the power point BCC Budget, with the decrease in ad valorem of $7.4 million where do you suggest the cuts be made? Even I realize that anything I say here is made moot because the rate has been set, but at this point I have had my opportunity to get on my box and say my piece. In the end we may disagree but I still respect your right to your opinion.
Beach Fanatic
Don't understand why you say I'm aging any differently than you. The 79 years is what i heard it would take to payoff the debt created since January.With all due respect, sometimes he doesn't have any. Other times, not so much, once in a while, lots.
Check your thought process.
Posted via Mobile Device
Beach Fanatic
With all due respect, sometimes he doesn't have any. Other times, not so much, once in a while, lots.
I always try to factor in the time of day on those posts.
Beach Fanatic
Can you provide some documentation for your rant
I can.
Beach Fanatic
Robert, have you not looked at the power point, 2009 they were down 21 postions I think these are 911/ dispatched which were picked up by WCSO and for 2010 they have 3 unfunded and 1 eliminated position. There you go again, when confronted you throw out a what I suppose I am to think is a slam. Proud UNION Member here. First I am opposing all layoff, if they are through attrition and and they are not filling open positions I can't and won't argue, but if they are laying off then it would affect services even more. FYI maybe Robert you should look at the number of folks NFPA says should be on scene to fight a fire. The State of Florida says unless life is endangered you should have a 2 in 2 out rule at a minimum. Talk to Chief Rivers, oh never mind its all about the money. As for my employment, you know I do. I work for 2 departments, one part-time and the other full time. Maybe those things you have mentioned should be those things we cut instead of the folks. I am more than willing to stop improving parks and buying cheaper uniforms, and cutting trips and the such. Didn't you work for the county once? I guess to disagree with you, seems to alway bring an attempt at an attack by you. Sorry that my comments offend you.
Here4Good between 2009 and 2010 my count in positions lost whether thru attrtion, layoff or unfunded is 42.5 positions. I am also unsure how many more positions are going to be eliminated because we will not have the same money as last year. I will admit I am only reading what it says and I could definitiely not be interpeting it the same way you are. Although WCTA did say after the recent vote they would be reviewing the impact, so maybe there are going to be additional cuts to services and personnel.
Then why are you guys not up there telling them to get more firefighters hired because the situation they have is unsafe?
I guess I just do not understand the immediate response to budget cuts is that emergency services are going to be cut. I do not want to see us have less public safety personnel, teachers, or anyone for that matter. I want them to quit wasting money and doing what I consider silly stuff with it. If they stopped all of that, and we need to raise taxes to keep our level of protection the same, then let us raise taxes. But do not ask for more money until the inefficiency is under control.
Beach Fanatic
Sounds as though increased demand for services for a county that maybe considered rural that had a real estate boom because of it location, I wonder what Counties that don't have the area we have but still have to meet the needs of its citizens. Holmes, Jackson, Washinton counties come to mind. Think about Husfelt, Supt of Schools in Bay said he can justify a tax increase for the schools because he does not want to lay anyone else off obviously even he who ran on trimming the fat can't see himself from cutting off an arm. What was the ad valroem increases for each of those years? Has the level of service increased? Are we receiving more services for the increased amount we are paying? I think these will be the questions answered after we see the decreased services. Based on the power point BCC Budget, with the decrease in ad valorem of $7.4 million where do you suggest the cuts be made? Even I realize that anything I say here is made moot because the rate has been set, but at this point I have had my opportunity to get on my box and say my piece. In the end we may disagree but I still respect your right to your opinion.
You know it is admirable to not want to lay off a teacher. But if you have 1000 fewer students to teach, and you get paid per student to teach them, how can you justify keeping all those teachers?
Keeping in mind as you keep those teachers your future pension costs are going up, requiring an ever increasing amount of your budget, making it even harder to do the job without raising taxes the next year.
The government is GM on steroids.
SWGB
Don't understand why you say I'm aging any differently than you. The 79 years is what i heard it would take to payoff the debt created since January.
Check your thought process.
Posted via Mobile Device
You said another 79 years, implying that you are currently 79 years old. Just a month ago you were 72.
Perhaps Bob and Bob should keep notes on your age so these little errors will stop popping up.
Beach Fanatic
You said another 79 years, implying that you are currently 79 years old. Just a month ago you were 72.
Perhaps Bob and Bob should keep notes on your age so these little errors will stop popping up.
Sometimes I wonder who y'all think I really am...:roll:
Beach Fanatic
You said another 79 years, implying that you are currently 79 years old. Just a month ago you were 72.
Perhaps Bob and Bob should keep notes on your age so these little errors will stop popping up.
Seeing as though you want to be a grammar teacher let me rephrase it this way "It is projected to take 79 years to pay off the debt created since January."
I am still 72 years old.
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SWGB
Seeing as though you want to be a grammar teacher let me rephrase it this way "It is projected to take 79 years to pay off the debt created since January."
I am still 72 years old.
Posted via Mobile Device
The funny part is that you aren't even 2 years old yet according to your join date. Isn't that when you were created?
Beach Fanatic
There were around 9400 parcels with unpaid taxes this year. People who chose not to or could not afford property taxes. According to Fed reports Walton county leads the panhandle and most Florida counties in mortages that are more than 90 days past due. That number went up 4.15% in the forth quarter of 08 alone and are now almost 10%, about 1 out of every 10 residential mortgages in the county.
That is on top of the thousands of foreclosed properties since 2006 and thousands of short sale properties and thousands of sold properties where individuals absorbed millions of $$$ of wealth destruction.
Major condo developments along 30-A as well as 1000's of lots in development order approved "neighborhoods" are now bank owned.
Business revenues are down at least 20% according to Dept. of Revenue.
Maybe those who raise taxes do not know any of these property owners or business people.
That is on top of the thousands of foreclosed properties since 2006 and thousands of short sale properties and thousands of sold properties where individuals absorbed millions of $$$ of wealth destruction.
Major condo developments along 30-A as well as 1000's of lots in development order approved "neighborhoods" are now bank owned.
Business revenues are down at least 20% according to Dept. of Revenue.
Maybe those who raise taxes do not know any of these property owners or business people.
Edited
SoWal Insider
An eye-opening story on this very issue was just posted by our local paper, describing how the six main local government entities in the Tampa Bay area increased their spending dramatically during the boom.
SoWal should get some allowances for population growth, of course, as well as infrastructure and building costs -- so it is harder to target a fair budget because SoWal is a quite different place than it was 10 years ago. But dramatic spending increases was a statewide disease.
It's not totally applicable, but an interesting read:
How bay area governments blew the housing bubble - St. Petersburg Times
SoWal should get some allowances for population growth, of course, as well as infrastructure and building costs -- so it is harder to target a fair budget because SoWal is a quite different place than it was 10 years ago. But dramatic spending increases was a statewide disease.
We reviewed the financial ledgers of six regional governments ? Pinellas, Pasco and Hillsborough counties, and the cities of St. Petersburg, Clearwater and Tampa ? the main governments of Florida's bellwether region. The numbers paint a sobering picture. They show that from 2000 to 2007, the years of the real estate boom, local governments went on a shopping spree.
With the exception of Pasco, records show these governments used up tax dollars at rates that far outpaced growth and inflation combined. Pasco largely tracked both measures as its commission aggressively rolled back tax rates to offset swelling property values.
Hillsborough, whose commissioners regularly crow about their fiscal conservatism, grew at twice the rate of population and inflation. Year after year, they increased spending by double-digit percentages.
Leaders of the governments that spent the most will tell you they have simply responded to their residents' wants and needs. There's some truth to this.
For years, low taxes that lured retirees from other states also resulted in massive backlogs in road building and other infrastructure. Local governments were doing some catching up as Florida's real estate market caught fire.
Pinellas and Hillsborough both have a sales tax, shared with its cities, that voters approved years ago to build things like new parks, libraries, jails, fire stations and roads.
In Hillsborough, commissioners have committed much of the sales taxes they will collect through 2026 toward debt payments to build stuff now. The result has been a government building bonanza.
It's not totally applicable, but an interesting read:
How bay area governments blew the housing bubble - St. Petersburg Times
Beach Fanatic
There were around 9400 parcels with unpaid taxes this year. People who chose not to or could not afford property taxes. According to Fed reports Walton county leads the panhandle and most Florida counties in mortages that are more than 90 days past due. That number went up 4.15% in the forth quarter of 08 alone and are now almost 10%, about 1 out of every 10 residential mortgages in the county.
That is on top of the thousands of foreclosed properties since 2006 and thousands of short sale properties and thousands of sold properties where individuals absorbed millions of $$$ of wealth destruction.
Major condo developments along 30-A as well as 1000's of lots in development order approved "neighborhoods" are now bank owned.
Business revenues are down at least 20% according to Dept. of Revenue.
Maybe those who raise taxes do not know any of these property owners or business people.
Just curious, do you happen to know the number of primary residence vs second homes, homesteaded vs non homesteaded? Also wonder if short selling or returning the property to the bank was due to the value decreased.
Beach Fanatic
State Dept. of Revenue/Property appraiser should have a compilation of data for foreclosed properties being homesteaded or not. Sorry I don't know.
loss of value, ridiculous purchase prices, resets on adjustable rate mortgages, high insurances and taxes, loss of income, lack of personal responsibility, being broke, etc. probably all contibute to an individual walking away and letting a bank agree to a short sale.
???? Anyway it's the old lose lose situation.
loss of value, ridiculous purchase prices, resets on adjustable rate mortgages, high insurances and taxes, loss of income, lack of personal responsibility, being broke, etc. probably all contibute to an individual walking away and letting a bank agree to a short sale.
???? Anyway it's the old lose lose situation.Edited
Beach Fanatic
I just think its a personal responsibility issue. I can afford what I bought and sometimes it can be tough but I am doing what I can to honor my obligations, it just disappoints me that many homes are second homes. My mom lives in St Pete area and she shared a story about a neighbor buying a property and then when she lost $100k in value she just allowed it to be foreclosed on. Not that she couldn't afford it she just couldn't flip it at a profit.
Beach Fanatic
Does anyone ever remember what is posted on this board? A good month ago, Ronnie Bell addressed the SWCC and said he had be told in no uncertain terms not to increase the millage for the county this year. To work it out and find cuts elsewhere. The county did just that. Some need to start giving them credit for looking for solutions other than raising taxes and keeping their word, something extremely rare in today's governments.
Beach Fanatic
SWFD Ad Valorm Taxes
1998 $ 1,969,916.00
1999 $ 2,354,274.00
2000 $ 2,655,299.00
2001 $ 3,129,681.00
2002 $ 3,745,893.00
2003 $ 4,576,041.00
2004 $ 5,845,037.00
2005 $ 9,664,162.00
2006 $ 12,387,109.00
Between 1998 and 2006 SWFD
Ad Valorem Taxes Increased By +528.18 %
Population Growth +47.69%
WCTA has never promoted a reduction in the level of service
Those numbers are stagering. Those guys in 1998 who could deliver the same services to the county for 10 million less $$$ were true heros. Using those numbers and adding a 50% increase for population growth today's SWFD should be able to deliver the same services for $3 million. I would be willing to listen to their request for every $$$ over that amount.
And when you look at the BCC $30,000,000 ought to be enough to deliver their same level of service.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
When it comes to the SWFD, the population increase is not the relevant figure. More relevant would be the increase in the number of dwelling units, the summer occupancy figures, the number of calls they answer annually, the increase in traffic crashes, commercial fire alarm calls, the addition of beach flags and life guards, etc. Figures that reflect the actual increase in level of required services are the figures that should be looked at. Because SoWal is a beach community with a large transient population, the percentage increase of permanent population does not adequately reflect the increased demand for SWFD services.
And isn't that population figure increase countywide? If so, that makes it even more meaningless when considering SWFD's budget needs.
I am in no way suggesting we should give SWFD or any other taxing entity a pass, but if we are going to look at their budgets, let's look with an open mind and get all the facts first.
And isn't that population figure increase countywide? If so, that makes it even more meaningless when considering SWFD's budget needs.
I am in no way suggesting we should give SWFD or any other taxing entity a pass, but if we are going to look at their budgets, let's look with an open mind and get all the facts first.
Beach Fanatic
but if we are going to look at their budgets, let's look with an open mind and get all the facts first.
Absolutely agree with you. And most of all getting all the facts and basing their budget on cost and needs and not starting with the $$$ amount of advalorem tax revenue. I think it is safe to say that cost and needs should not have gone up 500%.+++
Edited
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