Firefighters propose cuts

Bob

You are welcome to make a copy of the 10/1/2010 actuary's report I had when I was on the pension board.

I don't know why they are not available as PDF files for the public.

To repeat, you can find nothing about the actuary's report being based on participants living to age 109.

Thanks Buz I will make arrangements to get a copy.

Bob,

That's wonderful regarding your 30+ years with an excellent organization; then I'm sure you do understand about our feelings of a bond and family that Henry and I have mentioned. It runs deep. Ok, I'm stereotypical in my thinking (it's justbeen my experience) and you are correct, I don't know you and I have already stated that and you don't know me either.

I thought you were affiliated with the WCTA, you are listed on their website as their Executive Director. Didn't know exactly what that entailed, now I do. I said earlier that the WCTA can only address the problems they are aware of, they cannot address what they don't know and there is lots they do not know; not through any fault of their own, they are just not always told or are aware of where taxpayer money is being spent or misspent, as the case may be. That is just my opinion, which I am entitled to.

Yep, I'm free to post and I happen to know lots of people who are reading this thread, not just for negotiations or pension purposes.

Your statement that the WCTA should have a concern for cost saving proposals is a red herring as their history and track record are proof of just the opposite.

How is what Diane posted a red herring? I believe that she means WCTA should have a concern for all possible cost saving proposals. I think you guys do have a concern and I don't think she was trying to draw your attention away from the "man behind the mirror".

Bob, I know you had to leave early but I was wondering if you were able to get a copy of the counter proposal we gave back to management? If not I'd be more than willing to email you a copy. It's in the same format as the last one. If you want some explanation on what each proposal means let me know I can explain it easier via Phone or in person as some of it might have some jargon related to it.

Diane, Miss ya. I hope all is well these days.

Hi Henry,

You are right again! No, the thought of posting a "red herring" never crossed my mind, I was not trying to divert attention away from anything, I'm just once again telling the honest truth, as I know it. The layoffs were mentioned in this thread and I voiced my opinion. Scooterbug addressed one of my postings and I responded to him/her. I will continue to do that as I see fit.

Miss you too and lots of other friends at SWFD! All is well for me and life goes on, thankfully!!

Twenty one years is al long time and twelve is nothing to sneeze at. My question is was there any retirement attached to either lay off? I really feel there was somewhere else they could have found a reduction in spending but I am admittedly second guessing.

Why is it a red herring - because it states a position that the WCTA has no interest in all cost savings proposals. The statement is actually false in its premise and fact.

"Your statement that the WCTA should have a concern for cost saving proposals is a red herring as their history and track record are proof of just the opposite."

Pardon me for taking offense to that, but they spend countless hours pouring over audited financial statements, proposed budgets, expense approval reports, attended so many meetings that they have lost count, answered thousands of phone calls and emails and driven thousands of miles to try and understand the story behind the numbers. All "free" to those who are interested, but supported by those that believe a true service is provided.

The thread is about union proposals that potentially save the district over 800,000. "Numbers people" tend to be "show me people- trust but verify people" and if that is a fault in them I'm guilty as accused.

I believe in what the WCTA mission statement is very strongly. I defend them when people make statements about what they do and are about that are uninformed about their purpose and methods of operation

Although I feel for those affected by the layoffs - they are a fact of life in this day. Florida has a 10.8% unemployment rate. Do I like it - no. Is it a fact - yes. Those 10.8% of the workforce are a reality today.

If I post something - it has a verifiable source to back up what I said. Can others draw a different conclusion from the same data - yes. Thats why they make Chevrolets and Fords. Different conclusion based on the data they have to determine which car to purchase and drive.

I will gladly debate the conclusions, but don't drag an organization that is engaged, reviews the data provide and make recommendations as being "uninformed or not caring".

Once again these are my thoughts and do not necessarily represent the thoughts or opinions of the WCTA. Only the President speaks for them after the Board of Directors has voted to take a certain position.

Brian Flannagan was out sick again yesterday and I was therefore unable to get a electronic copy of the actuarial study. Buz Livingston has offered to provide a printed copy and I will take him up on the offer on Monday if I am unable to get a EC by then.

Hello Andy A,

I was not a member of the retirement/pension plan that is being discussed. Civilians who work for the Fire District cannot join the plan, only firefighting personnel, which includes all Chiefs, since they are technically "firefighters". I never really got involved with their pension plan and don't know all the facts regarding that matter, but I'm hoping Henry Apfelbach will respond to your question. I was, however, a member of their Deferred Compensation plan (similiar to an IRA), which I contributed to and the District also contributed to, which I greatly appreciated. The Local 3516 (the Union) is currently presenting revisions to the pension plan which could save the District a considerable sum of money. Sean Hughes, the former Deputy Chief who was also laid off, could have possibly been a part of the "early out" and would have been entitled to retirement. At least that is my understanding. Henry can explain that in more detail also as I really don't have enough knowledge to speak regarding that subject.

There were many reductions in spending that could have been taken before laying off two long term employees. I have my opinion on why it was done the way it was, but no one has really answered my questions. I addressed those questions regarding cost saving measures at the last Fire Board meeting in May, but they were received with complete silence, which is typical and I was not surprised.

Thanks for your question!

Good Grief, this is what I said: "I said earlier that the WCTA can only address the problems they are aware of, they cannot address what they don't know and there is lots they do not know; not through any fault of their own, they are just not always told or are aware of where taxpayer money is being spent or misspent, as the case may be. That is just my opinion, which I am entitled to." I specifically said that if they (WCTA) doesn't know something, how can they address it? Unless you actually work for one of our government agencies or quasi-government agencies, you can't possibly know where some money is being what I call "wasted". You keep saying that I said the WCTA is uninformed and not caring. I keep repeating that they can only be informed if they are told the truth; otherwise how would they know?

For heaven's sake, I wasn't picking on the WCTA, I'm sure they do a fantastic job with what they are informed of. I have personally met the President, and think she does a wonderful job and devotes many hours to trying to watch spending of various agencies. I do admire your dedication and defense of the WCTA, I always felt the same way about the Fire District; but there is always room for improvement. I am a taxpayer in this community and there are issues I am concerned about.

Anyway, take a moment to chill out, I'm going to the beach - it's a beautiful day in South Walton!

Bob, it is my understanding that a “red herring” is a statement meant as diversion from an article of significance at least that is the way I understand it, but what do I know I’m just a fireman. I think what Diane is saying is that the WCTA cannot fix or try to fix things it does not know exist. She was speaking as a former government employee about her personal experiences. I don’t think anyone of us is on here attacking you or this organization. I have tried to offer you whatever information you need. I have offered you the tapes of the recorded sessions when you were not able to make it, and I know you have other things to do so you had to leave early yesterday and I wasn’t sure if you were able to get a copy of the proposal the firefighters gave to management and I am offering it to you or anyone of the WCTA who requests it.
I know the WCTA tries to get as much information as possible and that is fine. I want them to have the most accurate information. Mrs. Mcquistin asked me if we were adversaries and I find that to be an interesting question. Many people think that because we are a union we are out to take advantage of the taxpayers. I find that not only to be untrue, but offensive. We spend our entire careers protecting people and we find it frustrating that people think we are enemies because of our participation in a union. Using that logic you guys would be bad guys since the WCTA is a union. At the root of it the Tea Party is a union. They are a group of like minded individuals joined together to attain a common goal. That is exactly what our union does. Our union also does many other things in this community to help out and you don’t hear us running to the newspaper every time looking for credit (just ask Diane about how we help with the angle tree event every year). We are a civic minded group of guys.
You guys spend countless hours going over information; in addition to going over as much info as we can we spend a lot of time trying to help those who can’t help themselves both at work and when we are out there collecting for MDA or around the holiday time. Bob, you stated earlier that you wanted to give your point of view or to offer up possible solutions well here we are I am reading every day and I will listen to what you have to say.

Twenty one years is al long time and twelve is nothing to sneeze at. My question is was there any retirement attached to either lay off? I really feel there was somewhere else they could have found a reduction in spending but I am admittedly second guessing.

Andy A, Sean Hughes has earned a pension with the SWFD. That being said with the way our plan is set up he will not be able to collect his earned benifits untill he reaches the age 55. I believe he can collect early benifits at the age of 50 but would take a penalty.

Diane did point out that at the Feb. Fire Board meeting the board was given a list of cost saving measures by the fire chief. It is up to the board to direct the chief to act on those measures and layoffs were not on that list. I represent the members of the bargining unit at the Fire District and while I don't represent Sean Hughes Or Diane Brown I worked with them for the 11.5 years that I have worked there and I find it sad that this is the only thing we could do to save next years budget. I hope that answers your question.

How is what Diane posted a red herring? I believe that she means WCTA should have a concern for all possible cost saving proposals. I think you guys do have a concern and I don't think she was trying to draw your attention away from the "man behind the mirror".

Bob, I know you had to leave early but I was wondering if you were able to get a copy of the counter proposal we gave back to management? If not I'd be more than willing to email you a copy. It's in the same format as the last one. If you want some explanation on what each proposal means let me know I can explain it easier via Phone or in person as some of it might have some jargon related to it.

Diane, Miss ya. I hope all is well these days.

Can you please just post it here for everyone to see?

Twenty one years is al long time and twelve is nothing to sneeze at. My question is was there any retirement attached to either lay off? I really feel there was somewhere else they could have found a reduction in spending but I am admittedly second guessing.

AFAICT from the pension agreement, there isn't any special treatment given to firefighters who go to full retirement. They accumulate pension benefits based on longevity of service with their final benefit being based on the salary they were making when they retire. (Longer service equals a higher pension benefits.) The person who was laid off will collect the benefits he has accrued, and also has the opportunity to be rehired if an opening becomes available. (I'm sure Mr. Apfelbach can correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.)

30a shopper, I believe the file is too big to post as it is 4 different spread sheets. If I know who you are you are more than welcome to get a copy from me. Also, SWFD has a copy and it's now a public record. There are somethings on there that would not make sense and would need to be explained.

I'm not sure what you were trying to say with regards to special treatment and full retirement, but 21yrs is not full retirement in our plan. Sean would have had to work 25yrs to get full retirement. He is not currently able to collect those benifits due to age. That is what we were trying to point out. Sean spent pretty much his entire working career with the SWFD and was just shown to the curb. If he had done something wrong then I would understand, but it was explained by the chief as a pure budget reduction issue. In our retirement plan you have to work 10yrs to be vested. After that date you have earned some type of pension through the plan. Your compensation is based on the average of the highest 5 years of your last 10 employed, this excludes overtime and is just based on base salary. In Sean's case it would not have mattered anyway he was overtime exempt due to position. You are correct about benefits being tied to years of service. You get 4% per year worked up to 25yrs. Now, I am not on the pension board but I am a pensioneer so I am not an expert in all areas of our pension. It seems I learn new things every day about this system.

Quote from Diane's Post: "You would think that the Walton County Taxpayer's Association would have an interest in cost saving measures that are not taking place and other expenditures of the District".

Diane the quote above is what you wrote and what I responded to.

In my opinion that is a "red herring" as it infers that the organization does not have valid concerns on all of the items that are a part of the budget and how it is being spent nor do they have all of the data. It also deflects the reader from one thread topic as it challenges the motives and intent of the organization - that it has no interest in other cost saving ideas or measures.

You actually have no idea what data the WCTA has in it's possession or where it came from.

Quote from Henry's Post: "I wasn’t sure if you were able to get a copy of the proposal the firefighters gave to management and I am offering it to you or anyone of the WCTA who requests it."

Thanks - I have a copy - I also see that 30Ashopper has made the request for you to post the document.

Henry's Post Quote: Bob, you stated earlier that you wanted to give your point of view or to offer up possible solutions well here we are I am reading every day and I will listen to what you have to say.

My statement did not infer that I was desirous of posting "my personal" viewpoint or that I even have a personal viewpoint or plan.

My intent with the statement was that other ways of accomplishing the goal had been offered and were not being posted or discussed.

At this time I have no point of view or position. I am still in the data gathering stage.

I tend to make sure that I have all of the facts available before forming a opinion or a particular position.

I do not feel that I have all of the data available at this time as numbers from both parties continue to change and evolve. Once there is consensus on the data, I will be more than happy to give you my take on what I view as a reasonable way forward that benefits all, not any one group over the other.

That may be the "numbers guy" persona that Diane credits all "numbers guy's" with based on her experiences, but it is a reasonable way to address complex problems.

Once again these are my thoughts and viewpoints and have no connection with the WCTA.

The WCTA speaks for itself.

I know that I am vitally interested in public safety and consider the services and programs that the SWFD provides is one of the primary functions of government.

When I need your services I ,want and expect that service to be there and delivered in the fastest, most cost efficient manner possible. That does not mean SWFD has a blank check.

I fully support your right to collectively bargain and have never questioned or commented in anyway that you didn't or that their was an adversarial relationship. Some seem to interchange my positions with those of the WCTA at will.

Bob,

I believe Henry explained it well in his earlier post about exactly what I meant. I can't keep explaining it, it is what it is. I have been contacted by many friends, acquaintances, and people I just happen to run into who are reading this post and they totally understand what I am saying. If you want to turn it into an "attack" on my part, then that is your right and your opinion. I'm not going to address the "red herring" thing, it's ridiculous. You are making it sound like I am in the CIA or something for goodness sake.

You're right, I don't know what data the WCTA is in possession of or where it came from. I know they don't have any information from me, a taxpayer, who does have information that I may or may not want to share at this time.

No, I don't place all "numbers guys or girls" in one category; I even have friends who are numbers people. But I will say you are kind of proving me right on that one.

I'm off to enjoy a wonderful dinner in South Walton - have a great weekend!

I understand all of that Bob.When it comes to wether are our organizations always opposed I was relaying a story about the union's relationship with the South Walton community and how I was kind of caught off gaurd when asked that question. In the community(Santa Rosa County) where I live I help provide fire service for the lowest possible cost because I have a sense of civic duty. That being said I feel like our community lost two very loyal and civic minded individuals and I agree with your assessment that this is unfortunate. I also believe that it could have been avoided. I think when read out of it's full context Diane's quote sounds worse. I fully believe that she was not taking a shot at the WCTA. I think she is talking about the fact that to this date no one from the WCTA has asked the question about why the layoffs and not the other things on the list that was previously mentioned. I also realize that SWFD is one of many organizations that WCTA tracks, so I think Diane is just making sure you have the info. Having said all that, this is just my opinion on what Diane was talking about. For all I know she could soon be a member of the WCTA. Once again I will offer that if you have any questions about how the staffing levels on the proposal you have work feel free to contact me.

Henry,

Thank you for explaining exactly what I meant. I'm glad you understood. I agree with your definition of a red herring also. Glad we are on the same wave length!

The Union did an awesome job this past year in helping with the Angel Tree; a charity that is very near and dear to my heart. We worked together to help children in the community and there is nothing better than that! It will be a part of my life at the Fire District that I will never forget.

Have a great weekend and be safe!

Diane

Diane

You have repeatedly stated that you have information concerning "cost savings" that could be utilized to avert a budget shortfall somewhere between 2.5 and 2.8 million dollars and would have averted two layoffs as well.

Please share them here for all to see - I know that I would like to review them. If they have been printed, published or detailed somewhere I apologize, but I missed them. Remember that there are no do overs, no mulligans and you can't un-ring the bell.

If mistakes have been made we can only learn from them and hold those that made them accountable.

Just tell it like it is, be honest. Truth is a perfect defense in court.

Have a nice evening !

:popcorn: