Walton County loses In Federal Court

About 20 miles or 75% of Walton littoral beachfront property is privately owned to the MHWL. I know it makes too much sense but shouldn’t Walton BCC/TDC mark the 6 miles of publicly owned property and north/south beach access lanes to the MHWL? Then by default the other 75% is private. Walton already marks 50% of the public beach fronts now for vendor use areas. Of course only the vendors know where those public areas are. But the key is for the TDC to educate the public with their $20 MILLION a year in taxes where the public beaches are, that the public is on private property outside the marked public areas, to respect private property and constitutional rules, then ENFORCE the rules.

That makes so much sense and it would cut down on the need for so many signs! We need a movement for this idea.

If we are talking constitutions, the Florida Constitution provides that the area below the mean high water line on the beaches is held in trust by the state "for all the people."

That’s true but in some cases that line in in the gulf.

I have heard that, and I have heard that in some places there may be an area as much as 300 feet in depth that is available for use by the public seaward of privately-owned property.

I have heard that, and I have heard that in some places there may be an area as much as 300 feet in depth that is available for use by the public seaward of privately-owned property.

While there is not a consistent line, if you look at the surveys of the Walton County coastline from the Corps of Engineers that was done for the Hurricane Storm Damage Reduction (HSDR) Project, you can get some idea. I don't think you'll find anything at all close to 300 feet of beach below the MHWL.

What I heard was in reference to the renourished portion between Topsail Hill Preserve State Park and the Walton/Okaloosa County line.

What I heard was in reference to the renourished portion between Topsail Hill Preserve State Park and the Walton/Okaloosa County line.

That's possible since the western end was renourished in 2006 timeframe, I think.

If we are talking constitutions, the Florida Constitution provides that the area below the mean high water line on the beaches is held in trust by the state "for all the people."

I fail to understand why people continue to make a point about this this fact. "Below" means seaward of. In Walton the difference between the mean low water and mean high water tide elevation is small.
NOAA measures the tides and have a station in Panama City Beach.
Here's much of September 2017:
The predicted and measured and validated tide elevations are shown. Sep 10 is when Irma came to town with 25 kt winds from the north for a few days and blew the water out/seaward. The prevailing winds are from the south and blow waters landward. 0.0 is the MHWL.

Sept 16 is typical and had high tide at 8 AM, Equal MHWL at 11 AM, and low tide at 4PM.

Here's Seagrove Skycam at these times on Sept 16. As you can see there is not much difference in the water elevation. Wave height defines the wet sand but not the MHWL. All the tents and umbrellas in these photos are landward of the MHWL. The public has access to all the beach "below" the MHWL; but can not cross private property north to south to access or egress the beach below the MHWL. That's trespassing.

Sep 16 8AM High tide 0.84 EL above MHWL

Sept 16 11 AM MHWL

Sept 16 4 PM Low tide -0.69 ft EL below MHWL.

And it’s a 19 year average not where it might be on a given day.

And it’s a 19 year average not where it might be on a given day.

The MHWL in Walton is 0.74 feet EL using the NAVD88 data sphere or "plane" so where the NAV88 intersects the sand 0.74 ft EL is the MHWL. This plane the surveyor can measure and mark. Walton BCC measured the MHWL for all Walton littoral properties during the failed beach fortification fiasco in 2013(?) and could do it again whenever they want. The beach 0.74 EL doesn't change much (I've had my MHWL surveyed multiple times) in Walton unless a major weather event occurs then avulsion would likely apply and the property boundary would remain the same.

There seems to be the (1) theory, measured over 18.6 years, and (2) calculated, measured over months, methods.
I suspect Walton does not know how the MHWL is really measured either.

FL Statue MHWL Definition
Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

(14) “Mean high water” means the average height of the high waters over a 19-year period. For shorter periods of observation, “mean high water” means the average height of the high waters after corrections are applied to eliminate known variations and to reduce the result to the equivalent of a mean 19-year value.

LABINS - Survey Data for Florida, aerial images.
FDEP TIDE METHODOLOGIES
http://www.labins.org/survey_data/water/procedures_and_forms/Methodologies/TideMethodologies.pdf

UF Water Boundaries Book 1983 George M. Cole, PhD, PE, PLS
"Water Boundries"

NOAA Panama City Beach station datum
Datums - NOAA Tides & Currents

Won't even get into erosion, reliction, and accretion, or avulsion. But if a property owner had MHWL surveys before the hurricanes and avulsion occurred; theoretically the property boundary could be in the water below the MHWL.

I have seen several MHWL surveys that show that.

Why bring up the fact/make the point? I guess it is because this is a right in the Florida Constitution that means something to me as one of "all the people." I enjoy walking along the beach. If I have to walk in the wet sand or even in the water in some areas, I guess I can live with that.

Why is it that a majority of people think they can't walk along the beach? I've heard this ever since this nonsense started.

That was never the case and will not be the case. No private property owner has ever said that they want to prevent people from Walking On The Beach.

What is the case is that there are some people that don't just walk along the beach. They stop, they sit, they fish, they BBQ, they urinate and defecate in the dunes, the let their unlicensed dogs on the beach also urinate and defecate in the dunes, they leave glass bottles behind, they make tent cities, the list goes on. This takes place on peoples private property.

At least now, those Private Property Owners can clearly mark their areas and people can be aware of what is public and what is private.

So far the best idea I've hear is from FL Beach Bum. Please note the specific verbiage that seems to be a constant on this and other commentary sites as it pertains to this county. Educate. Enforce.

"About 20 miles or 75% of Walton littoral beachfront property is privately owned to the MHWL. I know it makes too much sense but shouldn’t Walton BCC/TDC mark the 6 miles of publicly owned property and north/south beach access lanes to the MHWL? Then by default the other 75% is private. Walton already marks 50% of the public beach fronts now for vendor use areas. Of course only the vendors know where those public areas are. But the key is for the TDC to educate the public with their $20 MILLION a year in taxes where the public beaches are, that the public is on private property outside the marked public areas, to respect private property and constitutional rules, then ENFORCE the rules."

Not sure if this sign is still up, but it does say, "no walking."

Not sure if this sign is still up, but it does say, "no walking."View attachment 67601

I won't dispute what that specific sign says.

I will say this. I support Private Property Rights of Beach Front Owners 110%.

I've yet to run into one of these owners that says you or anyone else cannot traverse to the east or to the west, on the beach. Its the issues I listed that are the problems.

Find me one owner that says you can't walk east to west and west to east on SoWal Beaches and I'm very open to changing my opinion 180 degrees very quickly.

Not sure if this sign is still up, but it does say, "no walking."View attachment 67601

But one could dance, skip, run, hop, cartwheel... I think I'll shimmy

The beaches belong to everyone...private property does not. The 50% given to vendors for free is pure unadulterated BS too. Cecilia Jones got just what was coming to her!

I don't live near the beach but it annoys me to no end that people let their animals run lose to dump in their neighbors yards or actually walk them, allow them to dump and don't carry poop kits. Then their are the morons who make U turns in the yard rather than pulling into the drive way and turning around. It's like some folks were born in a damn barn.

Being respectful of private property rights goes a long way towards enjoying your stay on the beach and your neighborhoods!

Why bring up the fact/make the point? I guess it is because this is a right in the Florida Constitution that means something to me as one of "all the people." I enjoy walking along the beach. If I have to walk in the wet sand or even in the water in some areas, I guess I can live with that.

The reason for WHY bring up the fact/make the point is that facts matter. You are very good about trying to get the facts right in your posts and writing, so the fact is that walking along the wet sand was/is protected on the beach (including private property) in the state of Florida is an important fact to understand. The sign you posted may say that the public can't walk there, but the state of FL says they can.

The reason for WHY bring up the fact/make the point is that facts matter. You are very good about trying to get the facts right in your posts and writing, so the fact is that walking along the wet sand was/is protected on the beach (including private property) in the state of Florida is an important fact to understand. The sign you posted may say that the public can't walk there, but the state of FL says they can.

To clarify, Miz responded to a question I had in her quote. I do not think there is any dispute that everyone can walk the foreshore of the sand in FL. That’s why I don’t understand the insistence for people to continually bring it up. Determining where the littoral foreshore is can be challenging; but the 0.74 EL MHWL can be marked by a surveyor. Many Walton littoral property owners can mark their MHWL property boundary. Walton conducted a county MWHL survey of all the state of FL property Oct 2013 and can/should do it annually if the BCC is going to enforce the state’s constitutional defined property boundary.
http://ftp.labins.org/MHW/MHW5398.pdf

Legally as I understand (I'm not an attorney but try to be informed), the foreshore is the sand (usually wet) seaward of the property owner’s and state’s MHWL property boundary; not “any” or “all” wet sand. As can be seen in the NOAA tide data the tide and wind can blow the waters edge above/landward of the MHWL so the MHWL is submerged under water at times.

Not only facts; but words matter too. “… the facts is that walking along the wet-sand was/is protected on the beach (including private property) in the state of Florida is an important fact to understand.” To clarify the FL Constitution protects the publics right to walk the foreshore below the MHWL. Not the wet-sand. Wet-sand on a calm day is a convenient visual reference for the foreshore. The FL Constitution clearly does not protect walking along the wet-sand or dry sand on private property. Only in Walton County has the BCC declared that the public can use private property (to walk across and other activities) without the property owner’s permission. And Walton declaration is under dispute in multiple courts.

The private property sign shown in Miz photo looks like it marks the eastern property boundary, is clearly landward of the MHWL (if titled for that property and probably is), was posted (legally according to the US Constitution and Federal judge), and presumably correctly states the area that is private property but incorrectly uses the word “waterline” instead of foreshore. You state, “The sign (image) you (Mitz) posted (online) may say that the public can’t walk there (there where?; private property? water-line? wet-sand?), but the state of FL says they can.” The state of FL says the public is ONLY entitled to walk the state of FL foreshore property seaward of the state/private property MHWL boundary. Not private property, water line, or wet sand.

From the above post...

"I do not think there is any dispute that everyone can walk the foreshore of the sand in FL. That’s why I don’t understand the insistence for people to continually bring it up"

BINGO!!!

I appreciate the enlightening discussion, folks!