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Is your physician a "Free Luncher"?

hi n dry avatar
hi n dryBeach Lover
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MEDICINE
Thanks, But No Thanks

Why more doctors, medical schools and hospitals are just saying no to drug-company promotions.
By Anne Underwood | NEWSWEEK
Oct 29, 2007 Issue
Dr. Jonathan Mohrer, a New York internist, used to tolerate visits from drug-company representatives. The reps provided a break in the routine, brought free pens, lunches and drug samples, and, most important, answered questions about new medications. But as the number of visits swelled to as many as 10 a day, his patience wore thin. It finally snapped in the fall of 2004, when the heavily promoted painkiller Vioxx was withdrawn after clear evidence emerged that it increased the risk of heart attacks. "I'd been getting pitches for Vioxx almost every week, even while questions were being raised about it in medical journals," says Mohrer. He kicked the reps out and made it clear he wouldn't take their calls in the future. "It's been a real relief," he says. "I don't know how I juggled it all."

Mohrer is one of a number of doctors who are just saying no to drug-company promotions. Some belong to No Free Lunch, an organization that asks doctors to take a pledge not to receive drug-company representatives. Admittedly, their numbers are small. Founded in 1999, No Free Lunch has just 800 members out of 800,000 practicing physicians in this country. The American Medical Student Association (AMSA) has collected a similar number of pledges among the nation's 68,000 med students, but that's twice as many pledges as it had a year ago. And increasing numbers of hospitals, health-care systems, medical schools and even states are starting to institute restrictive policies. Minnesota has already set limits on gifts, and three other states are weighing similar bills. "There's growing evidence that these relationships color doctors' prescribing practices, even if doctors think they don't," says Dr. Karen Antman, dean of Boston University's medical school, which last month instituted a ban on all gifts and lunches from drug reps and allows reps to visit only if invited.

It's no secret that Big Pharma spends megabucks marketing to physicians. In 2004, the total ran to $23 billion, including $15.9 billion in free drug samples, according to the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA). Drug reps provide "solid, scientific, FDA-approved information on the safety and efficacy of our drugs," says Dr. Cathryn Clary, vice president of Pfizer. "So many medicines are getting label updates all the time, it's hard to keep current."

But critics say sales reps do a lot more than educate. They come armed with information from databases telling them individual physicians' prescribing practices. They know before a visit whether a doctor prescribes a competitor's drug?and whether he switches after a sales call. They also bring gifts. True, PhRMA instituted voluntary guidelines in 2002 banning big-ticket items, like harbor cruises and golf outings. But social scientists say that trivial gifts like pens create a sense of obligation, too?all the more so when the friendly person who drops them off, along with free food for the staff, is a regular visitor. It doesn't hurt that the drug logos on pens and notepads keep a drug in the doctor's mind. Even free samples, which patients love (and sometimes depend on), aren't as philanthropic as they seem, given that they're often for the company's newest, most expensive medicines?particularly drugs like birth-control pills or heart medications that a patient could potentially take for years. Once a patient starts taking a drug that works, he wants to stay on it?an obvious boon to manufacturers.

What's the problem with that? Possibly none. The result may be as inconsequential as a physician's prescribing one drug instead of a me-too pill from a competitor. But the bulk of the reps' efforts target pricey new medications?which ultimately drives up costs for consumers. And, critics say, newer isn't necessarily better. In many cases, older, cheaper drugs are just as effective. Occasionally, they're even safer. Serious side effects may be discovered only after pills have come to market, as the withdrawal of the painkiller Vioxx and the recent controversy over the diabetes drug Avandia show.

Fortunately, for doctors who kick the habit, there are independent sources of up-to-date information, such as The Medical Letter on Drugs and Therapeutics?a sort of Consumer Reports for drugs that takes no advertising and costs only $100 a year. Still, reps are nothing if not persistent. Dr. Robert Goodman, the founder of No Free Lunch, recently found several of them parked in front of his rep-free New York clinic. From the open tailgate of their SUV, they were promoting their products and handing out bagels and cream cheese to doctors "like a coffee truck at a construction site," he says. He didn't ask why they were there. He didn't need to.

? Newsweek, Inc.


http://www.newsweek.com/id/57342

Replies

27
seacrestkristiBeach Fanatic
#2
Bravo to those 'No Free Lunch' docs! I don't like the idea of my doc being basically bribed with goodies in order to promte prescription meds. :clap:
scooterbug44 avatar
scooterbug44SoWal Expert
#3
A version of Campaign Finance Reform in the Doctor's office!!! :clap:
Jdarg avatar
JdargSoWal Expert
#4
Viagra pens are a hot commodity.

I do think this is great. I have waited in too many doc offices, smelling the "free lunch of the day", waiting way too long for the drug rep to finish pimping the latest drug and feeding the staff (bribing with food), only to be prescribed the same drug advertised on the doctor's pen or post-it note. Screw it. I have many drug rep friends and their "entertainment" budgets could support several families. It is ludicrous.

Maybe the new generation of docs will be different.:clap:
SGB avatar
SGBBeach Fanatic
#5
It's especially irritating when your doctor insists on giving you a prescription for a non-generic and tells you that this $400 prescription is much better than the $4 generic the pharmacist just told you about. And this was for a prescription that had to be used monthly for about a year. We dropped that doc.
NoHall avatar
NoHallhmmmm......can't remember
#6
Viagra pens are a hot commodity.

I do think this is great. I have waited in too many doc offices, smelling the "free lunch of the day", waiting way too long for the drug rep to finish pimping the latest drug and feeding the staff (bribing with food), only to be prescribed the same drug advertised on the doctor's pen or post-it note. Screw it. I have many drug rep friends and their "entertainment" budgets could support several families. It is ludicrous.

Maybe the new generation of docs will be different.:clap:

It's especially irritating when your doctor insists on giving you a prescription for a non-generic and tells you that this $400 prescription is much better than the $4 generic the pharmacist just told you about. And this was for a prescription that had to be used monthly for about a year. We dropped that doc.

"Free" lunch? Free lunch for whom? I take a medication that has no generic yet. Out of pocket, it would cost me $275 per month. Do any of you really think that it costs $8/pill to make, or do you think I'm paying for a lot of lunches and pens and tiny stuffed animals with a drug name?

The reps are constantly coming in to my allergy doc's office, yapping away on their cell phones in the waiting room, blah-blah-blah. It's refreshing to watch them go in, though, because my doctor seems to just grab the samples only to send the reps right out again! (He's big on passing out samples, and I've noticed that he doesn't show any preference to a particular brand...)

Insanity.

:bang:
seacrestkristiBeach Fanatic
#7
Hey, if you're a nurse in a large clinic or hospital the reps walk by you daily with big carts to feed the docs and residents. The nurses eat their brown bag or buy hospital cafeteria food if you even get a lunch break since you're probably short staffed too! That's a given. I can't tell you how many times in 20 years of nursing I wanted to grab a sandwich off that cart while I was bustin' it!:idontno:Doctors do work hard. So do nurses. 😀 Why doesn't someone feed the nurses? Oh yeah, they're not writing the prescriptions. :bang:
lcauleyBeach Comber
#8
For all you PharmRep haters out there, let me give you a little bit of information that could possibly change your mind about trying to take my job.

First off, I am not sure if you know or not, but Pharm companies spend millions and billions of dollars on research and development of new products. Some companies are developing new products and some are taking an older medication and making it better. ex. older medications were almost always short acting. Patients were to take these medications multiple times a day. What do you think the compliance % was for taking a med 3 to 4 times a day? If you don't know the answer...its less than 30%. Now alot of these medications have been updated to a once daily medication, obviously boosting compliance to nearly 90%. Again, let me stress how much it cost a pharma company to do all the research, trials, etc. The FDA requires Phase 1, Phase 2, Phase 3, and Phase 4 trials on EVERY single medication that goes on the market. Good for consumers right? Would you want to take a medication that hasn't been rigorously tested? I wouldn't.

As for these "high priced" medications versus generic. Did you know that the companies that make generic medications only have 1 thing to show the FDA before they are approved? That one thing is that their medication is within 20% high or low of the active content of the "brand name" medication. Essentially, you could get a different medication everytime you walk in the pharmacy. The pharmacies are given a list of all available generics (because there are usually several companies making the same generic medications) the pharmacy obviously will choose the one that is the cheapest, which makes good business sense. So let me give an example:
You take "BRAND 10 mg" and then it goes to "GENERIC 1 10mg"...this means that this generic could be really 8mg or 12 mg. So lets take it a step further. SAME MEDICATION- Still generic "BRAND 10mg"
Generic 1= 8 mg active ingredient
Generic 2= 11 mg active ingredient
Generic 3= 9 mg active
Generic 4= 12 mg active
If the pharmacy got a new price list on each of these each time they ordered their medication, there could be a change each time you got your refill. In my opinion this is by no fault of the pharmacy. For a medication such as antibiotics, that you only take for 7 days when you're sick...i don't think it is that big of a deal. But when you are playing with your heart meds or blood pressure etc. I do think it is a little bit of a worry!

Next, have any of you ever used any of the samples that we horrible reps leave in the office. If so, have you ever used the samples and NEVER gotten the prescription really filled?? I think we just saved you a co-pay or for those who don't have insurance...the whole cost of the medication. Also, did you know that alot of companies have patient assistance programs, where patients who qualify with low income can get the meds FREE?

Last, the money spent...I will tell you right now that my monthly budget is $1000. I have 75 doctors that I call on from Gulf Breeze to Port Saint Joe. Do you think that is a huge budget? I think there are PLENTY of companies out there writing off way more than that for tax purposes..am i right? Everybody spends money on their clients, why is it bad for us to do the same thing?

So all I ask is that everybody realize that us horrible sales reps really aren't that bad. We are all out there just trying to make a living. There is good reason that we do what we do, I would personally never go to a doctor that didn't see reps. I think doctors are WAY to busy to do all the necessary research to stay up to date on all the changes in the industry and I want the BEST medications out there when I need to be medicated. I would hate to know what would happen if pharm companies just stopped doing research and coming out with new meds. I hope there are many more advances in medicine to come and I am counting on the pharma companies to pull us through.

As for pens, I have plenty if anybody would like a few!! 😀

Edited

lcauleyBeach Comber
#9
Hey, if you're a nurse in a large clinic or hospital the reps walk by you daily with big carts to feed the docs and residents. The nurses eat their brown bag or buy hospital cafeteria food if you even get a lunch break since you're probably short staffed too! That's a given. I can't tell you how many times in 20 years of nursing I wanted to grab a sandwich off that cart while I was bustin' it!:idontno:Doctors do work hard. So do nurses. 😀 Why doesn't someone feed the nurses? Oh yeah, they're not writing the prescriptions. :bang:

seacrestkristi-
You should have been in one of my offices. I feed the whole office. Receptionist, nurse, and doctor. My company believes that the staff plays a big part in the office and we like to thank them for their hard work. By pharma code, we have to have a doctor present to be in compliance, but as long as they are present...all can be fed!
scooterbug44 avatar
scooterbug44SoWal Expert
#10
I still want my politicians lobbyist free and my dr's office pharmacy rep free! Friends who are or were pharmacy reps have presented a much different picture than you have.

I agree that there are way too many new medicines for the doctors to keep current on all of them, but IMO a pharmacy rep is not the best unbiased education source.

The fact that a generic only has to be within 20% of the active dose of the name brand it replaces is ridonkulous! That needs to be changed ASAP!
rapunzel avatar
rapunzelBeach Fanatic
#11
Oh, I can't wait for Skunky to weigh in on this. Particularly the short-acting patent extension and 20% active ingredient stuff. And R&D budgets vs. marketing budgets.

There are drug reps in that office feeding the staff every day, but he takes leftovers for lunch. The problem is that the nurses are used to great lunches, the patients are used to free samples, and everyone tolerates the schedule-derailing time succubus that is the drug rep pitch.

Granted, there is a need for education on new drugs. Unfortunately, a salesman is not an acceptable source of information for physicians. It would be like going to a Honda dealership and asking the sales guy to tell you which car to buy -- a Honda, a Toyota, or a Mini. Now, many drug companies have started to pay prominent doctors in a given area to give talks on their drugs to their peers. Everytime I see Dr. Jarvis' Plavix commercial I want to puke and wonder how the specialty boards could tolerate this unprofessional bit of whoring...and then I remember the rx companies give the boards and the AMA a ton of money, too.

If you don't like free lunchers, you should refuse to be a free sampler. If you want to do something about the spiraling cost of healthcare, find out the cost of a drug in it's long acting form vs. the short acting generic and decide if you'd be willing to pay for the difference if you were using your own money. Try generics first whenever possible. Factor in the costs in your healthcare decisions. If I have a prescription for a drug with no generic equivalent, I always ask the pharmacist what the cost is -- not what my co-pay is -- and then decide if I'd buy it if I had to pay the whole cost. So many people take the attitude that they should get the "best" drug available -- the newest and most expensive -- because they have insurance and don't really have to pay for the whole cost. They forget that the next year's premium is based on what the group spent this year plus 9-12%.

When more patients refuse the free samples, maybe healthcare providers would show a bit more courage and stop seeing the reps.
hi n dry avatar
hi n dryBeach LoverAuthor
#12
For all you PharmRep haters out there, let me give you a little bit of information that could possibly change your mind about trying to take my job.

....
As for these "high priced" medications versus generic. Did you know that the companies that make generic medications only have 1 thing to show the FDA before they are approved? That one thing is that their medication is within 20% high or low of the active content of the "brand name" medication. Essentially, you could get a different medication everytime you walk in the pharmacy. ..😀

The previous fear mongering "sales pitch" is a gross misrepresentation about generic drugs and only exemplifies why we don't want our doctors lobbied by corporate drug reps.

The below report from webmd may be a little less biased.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/questions-about-generic-drugs-answered

Frequently Asked Questions About Generic Drugs

What are generic drugs?

A generic drug is a copy that is the same as a brand-name drug in dosage, safety, strength, how it is taken, quality, performance and intended use.


Are generic drugs as safe as brand-name drugs?

Yes. FDA requires that all drugs be safe and effective. Since generics use the same active ingredients and are shown to work the same way in the body, they have the same risks and benefits as their brand-name counterparts.


Are generic drugs as strong as brand-name drugs?

Yes. FDA requires generic drugs to have the same quality, strength, purity and stability as brand-name drugs.


Do generic drugs take longer to work in the body?

No. Generic drugs work in the same way and in the same amount of time as brand-name drugs.


Why are generic drugs less expensive?

Generic drugs are less expensive because generic manufacturers don't have the investment costs of the developer of a new drug. New drugs are developed under patent protection. The patent protects the investment?including research, development, marketing, and promotion?by giving the company the sole right to sell the drug while it is in effect. As patents near expiration, manufacturers can apply to the FDA to sell generic versions. Because those manufacturers don't have the same development costs, they can sell their product at substantial discounts. Also, once generic drugs are approved, there is greater competition, which keeps the price down. Today, almost half of all prescriptions are filled with generic drugs.


Are brand-name drugs made in more modern facilities than generic drugs?

No. Both brand-name and generic drug facilities must meet the same standards of good manufacturing practices. FDA won't permit drugs to be made in substandard facilities. FDA conducts about 3,500 inspections a year to ensure standards are met. Generic firms have facilities comparable to those of brand-name firms. In fact, brand-name firms are linked to an estimated 50 percent of generic drug production. They frequently make copies of their own or other brand-name drugs but sell them without the brand name.


If brand-name drugs and generic drugs have the same active ingredients, why do they look different?

In the United States, trademark laws do not allow a generic drug to look exactly like the brand-name drug. However, a generic drug must duplicate the active ingredient. Colors, flavors, and certain other inactive ingredients may be different.


Does every brand-name drug have a generic counterpart?

No. Brand-name drugs are generally given patent protection for 20 years from the date of submission of the patent. This provides protection for the innovator who laid out the initial costs (including research, development, and marketing expenses) to develop the new drug. However, when the patent expires, other drug companies can introduce competitive generic versions, but only after they have been thoroughly tested by the manufacturer and approved by the FDA.


What is the best source of information about generic drugs?

Contact your physician, pharmacist, or insurance company for information on your generic drugs. You can also visit the FDA website at http://www.fda.gov/cder/ogd/index.htm for more information.


What is Generic Initiative for Value and Efficiency (GIVE)?

On October 4, 2007, FDA launched the Generic Initiative for Value and Efficiency, or GIVE. The initiative will use existing resources to help FDA modernize and streamline the generic drug approval process.
lcauleyBeach Comber
#13
Questiona for you Rapunzel.
If in your opinion, no one should use brand name medications, how would you propose that the companies justify all the money they spend for R&D? Do you think that the industry has come out with enough medications and that every company should quit trying to improve or develop new meds?

As far as short acting vs. long acting- Don't you think that if you had to take a med (even generic) 3 times a day...the brand name once daily may be pretty close in cost for an insurance company? (the co-pay may be less on the short acting for consumers, but insurance still absorbs the cost of all 90 pills)

Samples- I have always thought of samples being a help to insurance companies. Just think about how many free samples the average american gets on a yearly basis. If all patients began to refuse samples, the insurance companies again would absorb the millions maybe billions of dollars once paid by the pharma companies. Another thing to think about....How many times have you gotten a sample for 7 days of a medication...you didn't like it (maybe due to side effects) so you called your physician and got them to change your medication. If you didn't use samples for your trial period, you may have very well been written 30 days of the medication by your doctor. Now the insurance company has paid for 30 day of pills and you only took 7 before throwing the rest out and getting another 30 day supply of a different medication. I am sure there are plenty out there who have also been given enough meds to cover their entire treatment with no prescription, the insurance company definately benefited there!!

Although I have to say...my job is not very glamorous at all. I do get treated like the scum of the earth on most days but then there are times that make it all worthwhile. Those days are when you hear a story about how the medication you educate doctors on daily changed a persons life, and for once, you get thanked for the work you do.
I agree there are some bad reps that don't earn credibility because they bribe for prescriptions, but I do know we all aren't like that. I take my job seriously and I do believe that when you talk to the doctors and make sure that everything you say is factual, objective and patient driven, you are doing your job the right way. I have a life just like everybody else, I have feelings and I like all of you take medications and have seen the change it has made in my life.
scooterbug44 avatar
scooterbug44SoWal Expert
#14
The only "samples" I've ever been offered were for name-brand meds that cost WAY more than the readily available generic. Samples don't help the insurance industry, they hurt it by jacking up overall costs and getting doctors to prescribe more costly drugs.

As far as your example, if there is a concern about a medication working for your ailment or causing a reaction, the doctor can easily write you a prescription for the 7 days instead of 30 and then change the meds as needed.

This thread is a great example of why free-lunch doctors are so desirable and the pharmaceutical lobby needs to go buh-bye!

Can't wait to see Skunky weigh in! :popcorn:

Edited

lcauleyBeach Comber
#15
This was taken from: http://www.fda.gov/cder/orange/obannual.pdf

The statistical methodology for analyzing these bioequivalence studies iscalled the two one-sided test procedure. Two situations are tested with this statistical methodology. The first of the two one-sided tests determines whether a generic product (test), when substituted for a brand-name product(reference) is significantly less bioavailable. The second of the two one-sided tests determines whether a brand-name product when substituted for ageneric product is significantly less bioavailable. Based on the opinions ofFDA medical experts, a difference of greater than 20% for each of the abovetests was determined to be significant, and therefore, undesirable for alldrug products. Numerically, this is expressed as a limit of test-productaverage/reference-product average of 80% for the first statistical test and alimit of reference-product average/test-product average of 80% for the secondstatistical test. By convention, all data is expressed as a ratio of theaverage response (AUC and Cmax) for test/reference, so the limit expressed inthe second statistical test is 125% (reciprocal of 80%).
30A Skunkape avatar
30A SkunkapeSkunky
#16
Interesting thread. Here is what is being unwrapped in our lunch room right now:

Two pans of salad with two jugs of dressing
A huge pan of red beans and rice
At least one huge pan of blackened or baked grouper in a dark sauce over rice
A huge pan of what looks like fajita chicken, Intended to go into or onto something
A huge pan or two of shrimp etoufee
Several gallon jugs of iced tea
Dessert yet to be revealed
:drool::drool::drool::drool:

OK, I will be having a Lean Cuisine, but most will have the Blue Pill Special. We have some docs here that are all over the free chow, others (including myself) avoid it. I personally hate enduring the sales pitches that are all too often bolstered by biased studies. Almost all the drug reps are pleasant people doing what they are told to do in order to make a living, and I understand that. I do not mean to throw them under the bus at all. They are often treated poorly by many docs behind the scenes and I don't see any reason to be unpleasnt to anybody;I simply do my best to avoid anything beyond casual exchanges.

With limited exception I avoid the sample closet. I will happily dole out stuff that I do not envision being refilled. I always attempt to steer people to Wal-Mart for the $4 formulary or have generics dispensed. If there is a difference in efficacy between generics and name brands, I have not noticed it.

I have purged my office of anything with advertising on it, and that is not as easy as it might sound.

Seacrestkristi, have no fear, all in the office eat well daily. I really don't have a beef with the overworked and underpaid taking a break and enjoying a nice lunch. Why some of my peers in the top tax bracket seem so addicted to free lunch is beyond me. And believe me, when I try to explain to people why I abstain, I get looks like I am from another planet. Here is how the conversation typically goes:
"Dr Skunky, we have Ruby Tuesday for lunch today," I am informed.
"Who paid for it?," I ask
"Drug rep," is the answer
"No, who paid for it?," I ask again. This usually elicits a blank stare which is my cue to do my best to explain some of the economics of the "free" lunch.

The above post is dedicated to the memory of Digger the Dermatophyte. You might remember Digger,he was the guy who lived in your toenails and could only be shooed away with Lamisil, and incredibly expensive drug aimed at correcting a cosmetic problem. Well, it was expensive up until within the last few weeks when it went generic. You can now score a month's worth for $4, which probably wouldn't have paid for one pill two months ago. RIP, Digger:floor:
hi n dry avatar
hi n dryBeach LoverAuthor
#17
Big brand name pharmaceutical companies not only spend lots of money influencing our doctors, they also are the "Goliaths" in Washington lobbying and political campaign contributions.

"Brand-Name Drug Companies Versus Generics: Lobbying and Campaign Contributions

http://www.citizen.org/congress/reform/drug_industry/contribution/articles.cfm?ID=8045

"There are basically two kinds of companies in the pharmaceutical business: brand-name drug companies and much smaller generic drug makers, who often compete with the brand-name companies for market share and profits.

The two types of drug companies also compete for political influence in Washington, D.C., and this week the U.S. Senate is considering legislation that would provide consumers with more timely access to lower-priced generic drugs legislation strongly opposed by brand-name companies. ...

A look at the brand-name and generic drug companies lobbying expenditures and campaign contributions shows how outgunned the generics drug industry is when it comes to currying favor with the Capitol's lawmakers.

In its attempts to influence Congress, the brand-name industry has spent more than $423 million during the last three election cycles while the generic drug industry has spent about $10 million, or 2 percent of what the brand-name industry spent."
scooterbug44 avatar
scooterbug44SoWal Expert
#18
$423 million would pay for a lot of R&D!
NoHall avatar
NoHallhmmmm......can't remember
#19
Pharm Rep, I don't think you're the devil. You just work for him! (Kidding. I'm thrilled you're here defending your position.)

More often than not, I have to pay to have prescriptions filled. Allegra only went generic recently, after I had paid full price for it for years. I have samples of Pulmicort for my asthma, but have paid quite a chunk of change to have that one filled when the sample closet was bare. The medicine I take for narcolepsy is so expensive that I know other narcoleptics who have gone without it because they couldn't afford it.

You mentioned assistance for low income patients--who pays for that? According to my income, I'm eligible for lots of assistance, but as long as I have a roof over my head I'll pay my own way. I don't scrimp and save to pay for feasts and pens, though.

I have no doubt that drug reps can provide valuable information. I've had plenty of medical experience with "Let's see if this one works, then." I don't think that this thread was started to bash those of you who are providing a useful service. It's always about boneheads who abuse the system...
greenroomsurfer avatar
greenroomsurferBeach Fanatic
#20
Hey Pharm Rep, thanks for helping to string out America. The way I see it your just a federally regulated drug dealer. :bang:

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