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Are we headed for an epic bear market?

scooterbug44 avatar
SoWal Expert
33,675 views
By Jon Markam

Satyajit Das is laughing. It appears I have said something very funny, but I have no idea what it was. My only clue is that the laugh sounds somewhat pitying. One of the world's leading experts on credit derivatives, Das is the author of a 4,200-page reference work on the subject, among a half-dozen other tomes. As a developer and marketer of the exotic instruments himself over the past 30 years. He seemed like the ideal industry insider to help us get to the bottom of the recent debt crunch -- and I expected him to defend and explain the practice.
I started by asking the Calcutta-born Australian whether the credit crisis was in what Americans would call the "third inning." This was pretty amusing, it seemed, judging from the laughter. So I tried again. "Second inning?" More laughter. "First?" Still too optimistic. Das, who knows as much about global money flows as anyone in the world, stopped chuckling long enough to suggest that we're actually still in the middle of the national anthem before a game destined to go into extra innings. And it won't end well for the global economy.

An epic bear market
Das is pretty droll for a math whiz, but his message is dead serious. He thinks we're on the verge of a bear market of epic proportions. The cause: Massive levels of debt underlying the world economy system are about to unwind in a profound and persistent way.

He's not sure if it will play out like the 13-year decline of 90% in Japan from 1990 to 2003 that followed the bursting of a credit bubble there, or like the 15-year flat spot in the U.S. market from 1960 to 1975. But either way, he foresees hard times as an optimistic era of too much liquidity, too much leverage and too much financial engineering slowly and inevitably deflates.
Like an ex-mobster turning state's witness, Das has turned his back on his old pals in the derivatives biz to warn anyone who will listen -- mostly banks and hedge funds that pay him consulting fees -- that the jig is up.
Rather than joining the crowd that blames the mess on American slobs who took on more mortgage debt than they could afford and have endangered the world by stiffing lenders, he points a finger at three parties: regulators who stood by as U.S. banks developed ingenious but dangerous ways of shifting trillions of dollars of credit risk off their balance sheets and into the hands of unsophisticated foreign investors; hedge and pension fund managers who gorged on high-yield debt instruments they didn't understand; and financial engineers who built towers of "securitized" debt with math models that were fundamentally flawed.

Investors are abuzz over the Fed?s interest-rate decision, but the Federal Reserve can?t fix everything, cautions MSN Money?s Jim Jubak. Lower interest rates alone won?t boost confidence in the debt market. "Defaulting middle-class U.S. homeowners are blamed, but they are merely a pawn in the game," he says. "Those loans were invented so that hedge funds would have high-yield debt to buy."

The liquidity factory
Das' view sounds cynical, but it makes sense if you stop thinking about mortgages as a way for people to finance houses and think about them instead as a way for lenders to generate cash flow and create collateral during an era of a flat interest-rate curve.Although subprime U.S. loans seem like small change in the context of the multitrillion-dollar debt market, it turns out these high-yield instruments were an important part of the machine that Das calls the global "liquidity factory." Just like a small amount of gasoline can power an entire truck given the right combination of spark plugs, pistons and transmission, subprime loans became the fuel that underlays derivative securities many, many times their size.

Here's how it worked: In olden days, like 10 years ago, banks wrote and funded their own loans. In the new game, Das points out, banks "originate" loans, "warehouse" them on their balance sheet for a brief time, then "distribute" them to investors by packaging them into derivatives called collateralized debt obligations, or CDOs, and similar instruments. In this scheme, banks don't need to tie up as much capital, so they can put more money out on loan. The more loans that were sold, the more they could use as collateral for more loans, so credit standards were lowered to get more paper out the door -- a task that was accelerated in recent years via fly-by-night brokers now accused of predatory lending practices. Buyers of these credit risks in CDO form were insurance companies, pension funds and hedge-fund managers from Bonn to Beijing. Because money was readily available at low interest rates in Japan and the United States, these managers leveraged up their bets by buying the CDOs with borrowed funds.

So if you follow the bouncing ball, borrowed money bought borrowed money. And then because they had the blessing of credit-ratings agencies relying on mathematical models suggesting that they would rarely default, these CDOs were in turn used as collateral to do more borrowing.
In this way, Das points out, credit risk moved from banks, where it was regulated and observable, to places where it was less regulated and difficult to identify.

Turning $1 into $20
The liquidity factory was self-perpetuating and seemingly unstoppable. As assets bought with borrowed money rose in value, players could borrow more money against them, and it thus seemed logical to borrow even more to increase returns. Bankers figured out how to strip money out of existing assets to do so, much as a homeowner might strip equity from his house to buy another house. These triple-borrowed assets were then in turn increasingly used as collateral for commercial paper -- the short-term borrowings of banks and corporations -- which was purchased by supposedly low-risk money market funds.
According to Das' figures, up to 53% of the $2.2 trillion commercial paper in the U.S. market is now asset-backed, with about 50% of that in mortgages.
When you add it all up, according to Das' research, a single dollar of "real" capital supports $20 to $30 of loans. This spiral of borrowing on an increasingly thin base of real assets, writ large and in nearly infinite variety, ultimately created a world in which derivatives outstanding earlier this year stood at $485 trillion -- or eight times total global gross domestic product of $60 trillion. Without a central governmental authority keeping tabs on these cross-border flows and ensuring a standard of record-keeping and quality, investors increasingly didn't know what they were buying or what any given security was really worth.

A painful unwinding
Now here is where the U.S. mortgage holder shows up again. As subprime loan default rates doubled, in contravention of what the models forecast, the CDOs those mortgages backed began to collapse. Because they were so hard to value, banks and funds started looking at all CDOs and other paper backed by mortgages with suspicion, and refused to accept them as collateral for the sort of short-term borrowing that underpins today's money markets. Through late last month, according to Das, as much as $300 billion in leveraged finance loans had been "orphaned," which means that they can't be sold off or used as collateral.

Investors are abuzz over the Fed?s interest-rate decision, but the Federal Reserve can?t fix everything, cautions MSN Money?s Jim Jubak. Lower interest rates alone won?t boost confidence in the debt market.

One of the wonders of leverage is that it amplifies losses on the way down just as it amplifies gains on the way up. The more an asset that is bought with borrowed money falls in value, the more you have to sell other stuff to fulfill the loan-to-value covenants. It's a vicious cycle. In this context, banks' objective was to prevent customers from selling their derivates at a discount because they would then have to mark down the value of all the other assets in the debt chain, an event that would lead to the need to make margin calls on customers already thin on cash.

Now it may seem hard to believe, but much of the past few years' advance in the stock market was underwritten by CDO-type instruments which go under the heading of "structured finance." I'm talking about private-equity takeovers, leveraged buyouts and corporate stock buybacks -- the works.
So to the extent that the structured finance market is coming undone, not only will those pillars of strength for equities be knocked away, but many recent deals that were predicated on the easy availability of money will likely also go bust, Das says. That is why he considers the current market volatility much more profound than a simple "correction" in prices. He sees it as a gigantic liquidity bubble unwinding -- a process that can take a long, long time.

While you might think that the U.S. Federal Reserve can help prevent disaster by lowering interest rates dramatically, as they did Wednesday, the evidence is not at all clear. The problem, after all, is not the amount of money in the system but the fact that buyers are in the process of rejecting the entire new risk-transfer model and its associated leverage and counterparty risks. Lower rates will not help that. "At best," Das says, "they help smooth the transition."

The fine print
Das notes that Japan in the 1990s lowered interest rates to zero and the country still suffered through a prolonged recession. His timetable for the start of the next serious phase of the unwinding is later this year or early 2008. . . . Das' most readable book for laypeople is "Traders, Guns & Money," an amusing expos? of high finance, published last year. Das occasionally writes a blog at his publisher's Web site. Also available are a boxed set of his reference books on derivatives and his book specifically on CDOs. . . . Perhaps the oddest line on the subject by a world leader was uttered by Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, the president of Brazil. Asked if he was worried about the effects of the credit crunch in his country, he dismissively called it "an eminently American crisis" caused by people trying to make a lot of "third-class money." . . . CDOs were first widely used back in the late 1980s by Drexel Burnham Lambert junk-bond king Michael Milken to sell off damaged and previously unsellable debt in a way that was more palatable to customers.

Replies

161
traderx avatar
Beach Fanatic
#152
trader x do you live on 30a? is dsl on 30a? i hear the cable connection is not that good. i also have long term accounts and was scaling in stocks like x,ge,bac,wfc,drys,hd,hig,pru,mos pot the last 2 weeks. some of these stocks took 80% plus hits. the mkt looks stable for now as excitment mounts over pres obama. the masses think he's the messiah and will fix this. they're very wrong. how we got in this mess was the massive printing of money in 2001-2002 when greenspan lowered rates to 1% to head off the stock mkt crash. in turn that money inflated the real estate bubble. FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS THE GOV'T HAS PRINTED MONEY NONSTOP TO HEAD OFF THE NATURAL EBB AND FLOW OF THE BUSINESS CYCLE. i'm very pessimistic on the next 5-10 years as the gov't saving basically bankrupt companies like aig,c and now gm will backfire. it basically sets up another japan were econ growth is 0-2% for years to come as the other side of this historically printing game by the gov't comes back to haunt

No, I am in Atlanta. I am moving to SoWal but it keeps getting delayed. I have no idea about broadband on 30a.

I am likewise pessimistic on the economy. The folks at the Von Mises Institute must be pulling their hair out over the interference with natural business cycles. Obama is prepared to spend upwards of a trillion dollars on public works programs. It will likely backfire and give us a two trillion dollar deficit and who knows what the debt will be by then. Sooner or later, it seems that the giddiness that has plaqued Wall Street will evaporate and we could see some interesting lows in the market.
TNJed avatar
Beach Fanatic
#153
Good gravy! :blink: Kvetch much?

Yes, there are tough times ahead, but we will be just fine in the long run. The stock market goes up and down - that's why we have names like bull and bear.

Even if it goes to a 2nd Great Depression we will manage. We may be eating Spam (made in the USA and stepping up production BTW) instead of Kobe beef, but we CAN feed ourselves.

No you're right. I've spent too much time in the barbershop and ended up with a mohawk, but then again I don't do subtle.

Like I said, I'm nervous to even bring up the subject, so I appreciate the illustration and exactly why you won't overhear that conversation at Starbu...wait ;-)
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#154
Good gravy! :blink: Kvetch much?

Yes, there are tough times ahead, but we will be just fine in the long run. The stock market goes up and down - that's why we have names like bull and bear.

Even if it goes to a 2nd Great Depression we will manage. We may be eating Spam (made in the USA and stepping up production BTW) instead of Kobe beef, but we CAN feed ourselves.

Kvetch huh... Yiddish tribal slang yet hailing from Chi-town area. One of these days we'll bump into each other.
Beach Lover
#155
Interesting Economic Perspective

See the links to documents on the right hand side of the page - report covers 330 metropolitan areas. Closest to Walton looks to be Panama City. On balance this data suggests that we're closer to the 9th inning than the 1st.

Should add to the collective wisdom...draw your own conclusions

https://www.nationalcity.com/main/m...analysis/pages/housing-valuation-analysis.asp
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#156
See the links to documents on the right hand side of the page - report covers 330 metropolitan areas. Closest to Walton looks to be Panama City. On balance this data suggests that we're closer to the 9th inning than the 1st.

Should add to the collective wisdom...draw your own conclusions

https://www.nationalcity.com/main/m...analysis/pages/housing-valuation-analysis.asp

If you were in Linens N Things tonight around 9:00 you'd think America was closing up shop. It's always strange when Christmas music is playing and the shelfs are bare. There were red tags on everything left, including the shopping carts and those cool staircases on wheels.
SHELLY avatar
SoWal Insider
#157
If you were in Linens N Things tonight around 9:00 you'd think America was closing up shop. It's always strange when Christmas music is playing and the shelfs are bare. There were red tags on everything left, including the shopping carts and those cool staircases on wheels.

You think that's strange...wait till you check out the bare shelves at KB Toys--they filed for a liquidation bankruptcy and asked for immediate "Going Out of Business Sales" in time for the holidays.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122901585422798605.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
TNJed avatar
Beach Fanatic
#158
You think that's strange...wait till you check out the bare shelves at KB Toys--they filed for a liquidation bankruptcy and asked for immediate "Going Out of Business Sales" in time for the holidays.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122901585422798605.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


This is huge...

http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2008/2008-293.htm

HUGE

A whole bunch of hedge funds and perhaps banks just found out after the close that they lost $50b

How do you tell 300 million people they are broke?

s l o w l e y

and with great authority
SHELLY avatar
SoWal Insider
#159
This is huge...

http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2008/2008-293.htm

HUGE

A whole bunch of hedge funds and perhaps banks just found out after the close that they lost $50b

How do you tell 300 million people they are broke?

s l o w l e y

and with great authority

Yeah, considering the charges leveled against him, his website is a hoot: https://www.madoff.com/dis/display.asp?id=203&mode=1&home=1

Chances are it might get yanked, so here are some highlights:
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A Global Leader in Trading US Equities

Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC is a leading international market maker. The firm has been providing quality executions for broker-dealers, banks, and financial institutions since its inception in 1960. During this time, Madoff has compiled an uninterrupted record of growth, which has enabled us to continually build our financial resources. With more than $700 million in firm capital, Madoff currently ranks among the top 1% of US Securities firms. Our sophisticated proprietary automation and unparalleled client service delivers an enhanced execution that is virtually unmatched in our industry.

Madoff Securities' clients include scores of leading securities firms, banks and financial institutions from across the United States and around the world. The firm is a leading market-maker in all of the S&P 500 stocks as well as over 350 NASDAQ issues. The firm is known for its fine pricing as well as its ability to execute most orders in seconds.

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The Owner's Name is on the Door

In an era of faceless organizations owned by other equally faceless organizations, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC harks back to an earlier era in the financial world: The owner's name is on the door. Clients know that Bernard Madoff has a personal interest in maintaining the unblemished record of value, fair-dealing, and high ethical standards that has always been the firm's hallmark. Bernard L. Madoff founded the investment firm that bears his name in 1960, soon after leaving law school. His brother, Peter B. Madoff, graduated from law school and joined the firm in 1970. While building the firm into a significant force in the securities industry, they have both been deeply involved in leading the dramatic transformation that has been underway in US securities trading.

Bernard L. Madoff has been a major figure in the National Association of Securities Dealers (NASD), the major self-regulatory organization for US broker/dealer firms. The firm was one of the five broker/dealers most closely involved in developing the NASDAQ Stock Market. He has been chairman of the board of directors of the NASDAQ Stock Market as well as a member of the board of governors of the NASD and a member of numerous NASD committees.

One major US financial publication lauded Bernard Madoff for his role in "helping to make NASDAQ a faster, fairer, more efficient and more international system." He has also served as a member of the board of directors of the Securities Industry Association.

Reflecting the growing international involvement of the firm, when Madoff Securities opened a London office in 1983, it would become one of the first US members of the London Stock Exchange. Bernard Madoff was also a founding member of the board of directors of the International Securities Clearing Corporation in London.

Peter B. Madoff has also been deeply involved in the NASD and other financial services regulatory organizations. He has served as vice chairman of the NASD, a member of its board of governors, and chairman of its New York region. He also has been actively involved in the NASDAQ Stock Market as a member of its board of governors and its executive committee and as chairman of its trading committee. He also has been president of the Security Traders Association of New York. He is a member of the board of directors of the Depository Trust and Clearing Corp. He is a member of the board of the Securities Industry Association.

Bernard and Peter Madoff have both played instrumental roles in the development of the fully computerized National Stock Exchange. Peter Madoff has been a member of its board of governors and has served on its executive committee. They have helped make the National Exchange the fastest growing regional stock exchange in the United States.

These positions of leadership not only indicate the deep interest Madoff Securities has shown in its industry, they also reflect the respect the firm and its management have achieved in the financial community.


----------------------------------------------------------
Party Photos: "Smile and say 'Ponzi!'"




https://www.madoff.com/stany2008/index.htm

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Edited

TNJed avatar
Beach Fanatic
#160
The firm is a leading market-maker in all of the S&P 500 stocks as well as over 350 NASDAQ issues. The firm is known for its fine pricing as well as its ability to execute most orders in seconds.

nice finds

MM (market makers) are the guys setting bid/asks on prices and control the flow. A criminal has had his finger on the trigger for years. Empirical evidence of a rigged free market.

I don't mean to be another Dr.Doom, but I feel compelled to share with my community what truths I have been finding because you aren't hearing how it really is.

a few new articles

http://www.reuters.com/article/InvestmentOutlook09/idUSTRE4BA5CO20081211

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/08/pf/laidoff_atfifty.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2008121110


Today's market will be brutal. I've been saying for a few weeks, next week could be the "capitulation" everyone is looking for as they need to speed up the wave cycle in time for a Santa rally into inauguration.

I'm a believer of the 120-year Kress cycle and it bottoms in 2014.
Banned
#161
tnjed another stock market lesson for many. the mkt defies reasoning many times. in all reality the mkt should ahve been down 500 today but isntead it frustrated the doomsayers yet again and rallied. i never predict what the mkt will do and only react. predicting gets you broke in the sotck game. that said it was a great day for day trading the long side all day
TNJed avatar
Beach Fanatic
#162
true that. dogma has no place in the market. bad news is good news when a $15bln bailout overshadows a guaranteed loss of $50bln. buy the rumor sell the news. they can only fool mother nature for so long.

yesterday combined with this mornings 200 pt. plunge was a great place for me to lighten up my shorts. you never go broke taking a profit. gl to you...;-)

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