My opinion was the Feds have tightened too much already- maybe we will see some more real estate market activity.
U.S. Treasuries Gain After Bernanke Says `Moderation' Under Way
July 19 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. 10-year note yields fell the most in six weeks after Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said ``moderation'' is under way in the economy, fueling speculation the bank will pause in lifting interest rates.
Traders bought Treasuries as Bernanke, in testimony to Congress, said policy makers must take into account ``the possible future effects of previous policy actions,'' while also remaining on guard against inflation. Treasuries fell earlier after a government report showed consumer prices excluding fuel and food rose in June by more than economists forecast.
``More people are betting on the notion that the Fed may be pausing sooner rather than later,'' said David Glocke, who manages $30 billion in Treasuries for Vanguard Group Inc. in Malvern, Pennsylvania. ``I would have anticipated a little more focus on the inflation front but there's more real estate devoted to the slowing in the economy.''
The yield on the benchmark 10-year note dropped about 8 basis points, or 0.08 percentage point, to 5.05 percent at 2:07 p.m. in New York, according to bond broker Cantor Fitzgerald LP. It was the biggest drop since June 2. The two-year note yield fell about 8 basis points to 5.10 percent.
The price of the 5 1/8 percent note due May 2016 rose 5/8, or $6.25 per $1,000 face amount, to 100 17/32. The note's price moves inversely to its yield.
Growth Outlook
Gross domestic product, which expanded at an annual rate of 5.6 percent in the first quarter, will probably cool to grow from 3.25 percent to 3.5 percent this year and 3 percent to 3.25 percent next year, according to Fed forecasts published today.
``Investors are looking at the economic outlook and changing their opinions on the marketplace,'' said Richard Volpe, head of U.S. government bond trading at Bear Stearns & Co. in New York. ``If you look at the forward assumptions in the economic outlook they were weaker than we anticipated.''
Treasury trading volume surged today, according to data from ICAP Plc, the world's largest broker of trades between banks. Volume was $290.5 billion as of 2 p.m., approaching the amount for the full day yesterday when it reached $293 billion, which was the most since June 14, and above the six-month average of $253 billion.
The Fed next sets rates on Aug. 8. Interest-rate futures showed traders see a 59 percent chance the Fed will lift rates a quarter-percentage point to 5.5 percent next month, down from above 80 percent odds after the consumer price report. The Fed has lifted borrowing costs at its past 17 meetings.
Bearish Bias
Investors in Treasuries were the most bearish in three weeks in the week through July 17, according to a JPMorgan Chase & Co. index released yesterday.
Bernanke said policy makers must be on guard against ``persistently higher inflation.'' At the same time, the Fed doesn't want to ``tighten too much,'' he said in his testimony.
The Labor Department said consumer prices rose 0.2 percent in June, after a 0.4 percent increase the month before. The median estimate of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News was for a 0.2 percent jump. Excluding food and energy, prices rose 0.3 percent, the same as May, and beating the median forecast for a 0.2 percent increase.
Goldman, Sachs & Co. economists today raised their forecast for the fed funds rate a quarter-percentage point to 5.5 percent, saying today's inflation report and remarks from Bernanke make it less likely policy makers will pause.
Less Aggressive
Investors interpreted the Fed chairman's remarks as less aggressive on raising interest rates, said Don Alexander, director of fixed-income and currency strategy in New York for Citibank Private Bank, which manages $222 billion.
``The Fed may need to do something more. But maybe not as much as people had thought,'' said Alexander. ``He's not coming through as very aggressive about raising rates.''
Two-year Treasuries yielded about 5 basis points more than 10-year notes, according to Bloomberg data. This so-called inversion of the yields may indicate that traders believe the economy will slow, and the Fed may be forced to cut interest rates.
Ten-year yields fell as low as 5.04 percent on July 14 amid escalating violence in the Middle East.
Losses earlier today were also tempered by a report showing U.S. homebuilders started work on fewer homes in June.
Housing starts fell 5.3 percent to an annual rate of 1.850 million, the Commerce Department said. Building permits, a sign of future construction, fell 4.3 percent to a 1.862 million rate, a three-year low.
``The housing numbers may be a typical example of where the Fed goes a little too far'' raising rates, said E. Craig Coats Jr., co-head of fixed income at Keefe, Bruyette & Woods Inc. in New York.
To contact the reporter on this story:
Michael McDonald in New York at
mmcdonald10@bloomberg.net;
Deborah Finestone in New York at
dfinestone@bloomberg.net.
Mango
MangoSoWal InsiderNew York/ Santa Rosa Beach9,699 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
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69SHELLY
SHELLYSoWal Insider5,763 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
My opinion is that it is still too early to tell...situation & markets changing minute-to-minute (stock screens have as of late looked like Christmas Trees--red, green, red, green--albeit mostly green today š ).
If Fed stops tightening because economy is showing signs of cooling; dollar loses value in cooling economy; interest rates on new bonds (debt) stagnate; Chinese & others cut back on buying our debt (and start buying bonds of other countries who are raising rates); start selling off their US bonds; as bonds are sold off, US bond prices drop--and yield rises; 10-year bond yield is tied to mortgages; 10-year yield goes up--mortgage rates go up.
If the Fed stops tightening, we'll be venturing into uncharted waters...and if inflation continues to get worse (there's inflation, even though they say there is not because they think we're stupid enough to believe what they tell us) it's gonna get ugly.
The FED is damned if they do, and damned if they don't--either way, the economy is really, REALLY screwed up. We're on a tightrope, on one side is a den of hungry lions and on the other a tank of Great Whites.
If Fed stops tightening because economy is showing signs of cooling; dollar loses value in cooling economy; interest rates on new bonds (debt) stagnate; Chinese & others cut back on buying our debt (and start buying bonds of other countries who are raising rates); start selling off their US bonds; as bonds are sold off, US bond prices drop--and yield rises; 10-year bond yield is tied to mortgages; 10-year yield goes up--mortgage rates go up.
If the Fed stops tightening, we'll be venturing into uncharted waters...and if inflation continues to get worse (there's inflation, even though they say there is not because they think we're stupid enough to believe what they tell us) it's gonna get ugly.
The FED is damned if they do, and damned if they don't--either way, the economy is really, REALLY screwed up. We're on a tightrope, on one side is a den of hungry lions and on the other a tank of Great Whites.
Kurt
KurtAdminSoWal2,472 postsJoined View profileMessageAdmin

SHELLY
SHELLYSoWal Insider5,763 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
There, there--just deposit your net worth in the Bank of Serta and drag it down to your bomb shelter and wait it out....the economy needs a good shake-out, (if they allow it to run its course this time) it may hurt a bit, but then the sun will shine again.
Beachbummette
BeachbummetteSoWal InsiderBirmingham and Watersound5,742 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
There, there--just deposit your net worth in the Bank of Serta and drag it down to your bomb shelter and wait it out....the economy needs a good shake-out, (if they allow it to run its course this time) it may hurt a bit, but then the sun will shine again.
š± :shock: Is this the real Shelly?
Mango
MangoSoWal InsiderNew York/ Santa Rosa Beach9,699 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal InsiderAuthor
My opinion is that it is still too early to tell...situation & markets changing minute-to-minute (stock screens have as of late looked like Christmas Trees--red, green, red, green--albeit mostly green today š ).
If Fed stops tightening because economy is showing signs of cooling; dollar loses value in cooling economy; interest rates on new bonds (debt) stagnate; Chinese & others cut back on buying our debt (and start buying bonds of other countries who are raising rates); start selling off their US bonds; as bonds are sold off, US bond prices drop--and yield rises; 10-year bond yield is tied to mortgages; 10-year yield goes up--mortgage rates go up.
If the Fed stops tightening, we'll be venturing into uncharted waters...and if inflation continues to get worse (there's inflation, even though they say there is not because they think we're stupid enough to believe what they tell us) it's gonna get ugly.
The FED is damned if they do, and damned if they don't--either way, the economy is really, REALLY screwed up. We're on a tightrope, on one side is a den of hungry lions and on the other a tank of Great Whites.
I was waiting for Shelly's economic opinion. I am totally convinced you work for the Federal Reserve Bank. or your Greenspan himself laughing with your young wife. š ;-)
You make some good points, but the labor reports come out that we had an increase in jobs, then a week later, ooops we we were wrong. There are people losing jobs all over. Three calls from past clients in a week who maxed out their equity lines due to job losses. American corporations can not expand if they keep raising the Bank lending rate. No jobs, no house buying. Home buying has been what has driven this country's economy for the past 5 years and the service industries associated with it.
We are walking a tightrope, I agree, we always are, but there is a thing as too much too fast, and I am still of the opinion that that was the case with the Fed increases. I don't profess to be an economist and I don't have a crystal ball on my desk. There are too many other factors affecting what happens on a day to day basis.
My post was meant to bring some optimism.
TooFarTampa
TooFarTampaSoWal InsiderNative of Tampa now in Boston 'burbs. Left my hear5,422 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
I was waiting for Shelly's economic opinion. I am totally convinced you work for the Federal Reserve Bank. or your Greenspan himself laughing with your young wife. š ;-)
:floor: :floor: Now that's funny!
You make some good points, but the labor reports come out that we had an increase in jobs, then a week later, ooops we we were wrong. There are people losing jobs all over. Three calls from past clients in a week who maxed out their equity lines due to job losses. American corporations can not expand if they keep raising the Bank lending rate. No jobs, no house buying. Home buying has been what has driven this country's economy for the past 5 years and the service industries associated with it.
I don't know what to make of any of it. I personally feel like I've been through (and learned from) three boom/bust cycles already, including rampant speculation on my husband's company stock that has come waaaaay back to earth. There are so many factors that I keep reading about that it seems to me that anything could be the tipping point. Hoarding a larger cash cushion and stuffing it in a money market (not Serta š ) is great for anyone who can do it.
I do have a hunch that while home buying has slowed, if rates stay steady, home improvements will continue to help the economy. I think we'll just be moving away from the trophy-kitchen-remodel-to-add-equity-and-impress-neighbors phase to adding space and increasing livability of existing homes. For example: We have a 3BR house with detached guest house/office. Kidlet No. 3 is on the way. Obviously we would love a 4BR house and looked into the one across the street, but the cost basis would be nearly 500K more than what we paid for our current home and taxes would double thanks to Florida's, ahem, unique property tax structure system. That is ridiculous so the boys are bunking together and we will add on, when the time is right.
I know someone with 4BR and 4 kids who wants to move to a 5 BR place, but has the same issues. In Florida at least the threat of higher property taxes due to a move is the big fear factor. People are staying put and will end up keeping a lot of contractors in business. Meantime, I read this little nugget the other day:
"As of June 30, 15,134 Pinellas County houses or condos were for sale, up from 3,795 a year ago. Only 1,331 units were sold in June, down from 2,172 last June, according to the Pinellas Realtor Organization."
š± That's a lot of inventory. :bang:
Bob
BobSoWal InsiderO'Wal10,368 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
If oil prices keep going up, rates are not going to come down. Unless we get a group hug in the Middle East, don't bet against a good ole fashioned recession.
redfisher
redfisherBeach Fanatic374 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
My God, I don't get all this blah, blah, blah...How can an economy w/less than 5% unemployment, a moderating gdp of 3-3.25%, a downwardly revised deficit, at the top end of a rate cycle equate to all this "down in the mouth" postulating...Shelly, you are unbelievable...How is the Fed pausing uncharted territory (I can't imagine why they think your stupid)...that's what you get after a RAISING CYCLE - A CUTTING CYCLE...A great many "true" economists call these situations Goldilocks
Bob, if oil prices keep going up how can rates do anything but come down...the market will be doing the Fed's job for them and they'll be forced to cut...the Middle East has been screwed up for 60 years, this time is no different except that by giving the Iranians a bloody nose maybe they'll slow expansion...
Bob, if oil prices keep going up how can rates do anything but come down...the market will be doing the Fed's job for them and they'll be forced to cut...the Middle East has been screwed up for 60 years, this time is no different except that by giving the Iranians a bloody nose maybe they'll slow expansion...
bdc63bdc63Beach FanaticMd for now, but dreaming of SoWal303 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
I also feel that the economy is in a very fragile state, and that it really doesn't matter much if Bernacke raises one more time or not -- the outcome will be same.
This economy has been completely held up by the American consumer -- the same consumer that has managed to have a NEGATIVE savings rate and has zero equity in their primary asset ... their home. I heard yesterday that 50% of 50 year olds have not started saving for retirement š±. "No need to save, our house value is going through the roof! When it's time to retire, we'll sell the main house and bank a tidey profit to live on in retirement. Like our new kitchen and the new BMW? -- we took out just a bit of the appreciation from our house, but its okay because real estate only goes up!"
That same consumer is just now getting a big wake-up call ... that "real estate only goes up" is the second greatest lie. The consumer is starting an abrupt halt in spending. When the consumer stops buying stuff, companies start laying people off. I heard that 30% of all new jobs created during the "recovery" were real estate related (construction, agents, banks) ... where are those people going to get jobs?
The FED has to see that the economy is tanking ... at the same exact moment that inflation is ramping up. It's not too difficult at this point to take yourself down the path of the worst case senario -- high unemployment, high inflation, stalled economy, and a worthless dollar.
Well I've managed to really depress myself now ... excuse me for awhile while I go down to my bomb shelter and count my gold bars.
This economy has been completely held up by the American consumer -- the same consumer that has managed to have a NEGATIVE savings rate and has zero equity in their primary asset ... their home. I heard yesterday that 50% of 50 year olds have not started saving for retirement š±. "No need to save, our house value is going through the roof! When it's time to retire, we'll sell the main house and bank a tidey profit to live on in retirement. Like our new kitchen and the new BMW? -- we took out just a bit of the appreciation from our house, but its okay because real estate only goes up!"
That same consumer is just now getting a big wake-up call ... that "real estate only goes up" is the second greatest lie. The consumer is starting an abrupt halt in spending. When the consumer stops buying stuff, companies start laying people off. I heard that 30% of all new jobs created during the "recovery" were real estate related (construction, agents, banks) ... where are those people going to get jobs?
The FED has to see that the economy is tanking ... at the same exact moment that inflation is ramping up. It's not too difficult at this point to take yourself down the path of the worst case senario -- high unemployment, high inflation, stalled economy, and a worthless dollar.
Well I've managed to really depress myself now ... excuse me for awhile while I go down to my bomb shelter and count my gold bars.
dsilvar
dsilvarBeach FanaticMiramar beach307 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
My opinion is that we're on a tightrope, on one side is a den of hungry lions and on the other a tank of Great Whites.Aaaahhhh..this is why I love your posts, SHELLY. Keeps us bulls grounded for sure.
I cannot help but wonder, however, how physcoanalysis would help you. You must have had some deep economic trauma in your past life..this is evident. Your deep desire to have the US economy tank is very revealing..lions and tigers and great whites..oh my!
I love you man!
redfisher
redfisherBeach Fanatic374 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
In this economic environment, if your depressed its because you allow yourself to be...the facts are inarguable...Right on, dsilvar
SHELLY
SHELLYSoWal Insider5,763 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
.Bob, if oil prices keep going up how can rates do anything but come down...the market will be doing the Fed's job for them and they'll be forced to cut...the Middle East has been screwed up for 60 years, this time is no different except that by giving the Iranians a bloody nose maybe they'll slow expansion...
Rising oil prices= rising consumer goods products (lots of plastic, shipping of goods, farming crops, gas to get to work, etc. etc.)
Raising consumer goods =pressure to raise wages (which have been flat--adjusted for inflation--for several years for 80% of Americans)
Raising wages = Rising price of goods/service passed on to consumers
Rising price of goods/service = Inflation
Fed VOWS to fighting inflation = raising Funds Rate
Raising Fed Funds rates = Raising interest rates
Shampoo, rinse, repeat.
bdc63bdc63Beach FanaticMd for now, but dreaming of SoWal303 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
In this economic environment, if your depressed its because you allow yourself to be...the facts are inarguable...Right on, dsilvar
spoken like someone that has an interest-only loan, who buys stocks on margin, and carries credit card debt ... I would agree that the facts are inarguable as long as you look at ALL of the facts and not just the ones that feel good
(I'm back up from the bomb shelter ... it turns out that my gold bar doesn't take all that long to count, and Dick Chenny really isn't very good company)
redfisher
redfisherBeach Fanatic374 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Its Cheney, scholar...and I hear he's looking for a hunting partner...
And I'm not sure I understand how rising prices are passed thru as wage pressure...Wage pressure is generated by a full workforce...btw, I'm not in the 80% category...
Snowflakes melting in your... shampoo, rinse, repeat... or something :blink:
And I'm not sure I understand how rising prices are passed thru as wage pressure...Wage pressure is generated by a full workforce...btw, I'm not in the 80% category...
Snowflakes melting in your... shampoo, rinse, repeat... or something :blink:
Bob
BobSoWal InsiderO'Wal10,368 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
My God, I don't get all this blah, blah, blah...How can an economy w/less than 5% unemployment, a moderating gdp of 3-3.25%, a downwardly revised deficit, at the top end of a rate cycle equate to all this "down in the mouth" postulating...Shelly, you are unbelievable...How is the Fed pausing uncharted territory (I can't imagine why they think your stupid)...that's what you get after a RAISING CYCLE - A CUTTING CYCLE...A great many "true" economists call these situations GoldilocksRedfisher, your view of the economy through Republican sunglasses is mighty bright. I hope you are correct, but the stated goal of the Fed is to fight inflation. If oil continues to rise, core inflation will accelerate well ahead of depressing aggregate demand. Do you think the Fed would ease rates in response to higher inflation figures? The last time we had a recession, oil was one sixth the cost of current market prices for crude. Real Estate prices were well connected to wages, and there existed a budget surplus. The last time we had a killer recession[25 years ago], we had high energy prices, rampant inflation, and a stagnant economy. The Fed's response? Volker raised rates to the moon. Inflation was tamed when no one could find a job. Hopefully history will not repeat itself, and my daughters will stop asking me why I voted for Bush twice.
Bob, if oil prices keep going up how can rates do anything but come down...the market will be doing the Fed's job for them and they'll be forced to cut...the Middle East has been screwed up for 60 years, this time is no different except that by giving the Iranians a bloody nose maybe they'll slow expansion...
redfisher
redfisherBeach Fanatic374 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Bob respectfully, I'm not sure I understand...are you suggesting that high energy prices (doubling) are going to drive ci to the point that demand will be overwhelmed...When?...do they need to double again?...The Fed hikes revolve soley around the idea that the economy is growing too fast...There is no hyperinflation or stagnation of the economy...Real GDP will "moderate" to 3.25% from 4-5%, inflation to 2% at statistical full employment...Are you really suggesting, like some of these other knuckleheads, that a Volker-type response is possible...Bob, don't doubt the supply side...
Pirate
PirateBeach Fanatic331 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Does it not concern anyone here that a large chunk of the economic expansion of late has been due to the explosion of debt levels? With increasing construction costs, increasing intrest rates and stagnant or nonexistant sales prices the market and economy are in for a rough ride. It might not even matter if the fed holds the rate, most of the equity based economic expansion is past tense and with construction costs out of control new starts are destined to come to a halt.
Why the discussion about intrest rates anyway? I thought all the houses in Sowal were paid for with cash :floor: :rofl:
There are so many negative signs I don't understand how anyone can look past them ALL. I look at RE every time I come there and it is still way too high for investment.
Why the discussion about intrest rates anyway? I thought all the houses in Sowal were paid for with cash :floor: :rofl:
There are so many negative signs I don't understand how anyone can look past them ALL. I look at RE every time I come there and it is still way too high for investment.
SHELLY
SHELLYSoWal Insider5,763 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
Does it not concern anyone here that a large chunk of the economic expansion of late has been due to the explosion of debt levels?
Absolutely! During the stock market bubble there weren't nearly as many "ordinary citizens" with a pony in that race as there are in this Real Estate run-up (wacky loans, equity loans, refi cash outs). And for so many folks it's not going to be a quick "pop" and rapid decline--it's going to be a slow, aching, net-worth-declining ride to the bottom.
In Florida in 2000 there were 67,388 licensed RE agents, in 2005 that number jumped to 144,174--add to that all the other folks associated with the housing market (title, brokers, construction, furnishing, banking, appraisers) and you can understand why our state had such a great unemployment rate.
Housing over the last couple years fueled the economy's fire--they're crossing their fingers that businesses are going to take over where housing left off...personally I think they're hoping a Band-Aid will do when what's really needed is a tourniquet.
Indigo JillIndigo JillBeach FanaticPoint Washington321 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
In Florida in 2000 there were 67,388 licensed RE agents, in 2005 that number jumped to 144,174--add to that all the other folks associated with the housing market (title, brokers, construction, furnishing, banking, appraisers) and you can understand why our state had such a great unemployment rate.
Housing over the last couple years fueled the economy's fire--they're crossing their fingers that businesses are going to take over where housing left off...personally I think they're hoping a Band-Aid will do when what's really needed is a tourniquet.
Zero-profit condition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Zero profit condition is a term in the theory of competition in Economics. It describes the condition that occurs when a business or industry has an extremely low (near-zero) cost of entry.
In these cases, people tend to join the industry until all the money is gone. This means that a person's ability to make a lot of money in that industry is low, because when others see the opportunity to make money, they will also join the industry, thus cutting into your profits.
Take, for example, the real estate industry. In the mid 2000's there has been a huge real-estate boom, but real estate agents are not making any more money then previously. Why? Because it is very easy to become a real-estate agent, so when profits start to rise, more people become agents, and each agent already in the industry starts to sell less houses.
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