Who's Counting

I don't think we can pull out immediately. A time frame does need to be set as soon as possible and we need to stick to it. It is an absolute mess no doubt. It's just not fair to create the mess that we did and then leave. The whole situation should have been handled differently, but we now need a solution to fix our mistakes. Just my 2 cents.

I don't think we can pull out immediately. A time frame does need to be set as soon as possible and we need to stick to it. It is an absolute mess no doubt. It's just not fair to create the mess that we did and then leave. The whole situation should have been handled differently, but we now need a solution to fix our mistakes. Just my 2 cents.

I think you meant to say $20K.

yeah that's what I meant to say....how clever!

yeah that's what I meant to say....how clever!

;-) :funn:

you know the reason - very poor leadership in this country - with really bad slogans like "war on terror" and "stay the course", and "weapons of mass destruction". America's image has truly suffered and with good reason. it is truly baffling how our own citizens elected such an administration.

The Cowboy West and the Redneck South elected this man by the slimmest of margins. Bush won by offering simplistic answers and waiving the flag to throw a huge guilt trip on dissenters. One day we may learn not to start wars. War is an abomination that should be the last choice. GW has us in a hellacious corner now. That he refuses to listen to reason is unforgiveable.

And to add more sorrow to all this, there's been close to 60,000 Iraqi civilians killed in this war. These are numbers our administration don't release.

OMG!!!! Kathy dahling, did you not see my post about WHY we are still fighting the war? Let me dig it up for ya.

MEANWHILE, ALL OF YOU, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, Watch "IRAQ for Sale; the War of Profiteers". All of your answers are in this film.
Its on the news everyday.
Our troops are not "giving" their lives for this cause. They are being murdered for the sake of making a buck.

I'm going to go find the posts. Sit tight, I'll be right back.....


dka

It's hideous. Prez says the detractors are offering no solutions, which is true -- there seems to be no solution. Of course he is the decider so it is his fault we are there in the first place. Or maybe it is Cheney's fault. He seems to be the only one not acknowledging serious problems; maybe HE was the decider in the first place.

We have made a mess and we should clean it up. But how?

I feel bad not just for our troops but for the Iraqi citizens whose worlds have been torn apart. It is horrifying and it is scary because it only breeds more anger in the Middle East.

My hubby, a former Marine officer, went to Somalia in '92, shortly before our wedding. I remember how frustrated he was that the peace mission was not quite what it seemed to be, and that was before it got really bad. Somalia is still a nightmare ... will Iraq be any better in 15 years?

There seem to be no good answers, but I guess that is what we get when we start preemptive wars. IMO that is NOT what we should be doing in this country under any circumstances. I felt that way in '03 and feel even more strongly about it now.

And to add more sorrow to all this, there's been close to 60,000 Iraqi civilians killed in this war. These are numbers our administration don't release.

They also don't tell us how many people, of all sides, are injured, dismembered, paralyzed, etc. Try visiting a VA hospital. Spend some time with the wounded. I do it every six months. I'm retired military and still actively involved with many friends still serving.

The truth will make you sick.
Hopefully the truth will make you take a stand. Write a letter. Tell all your friends.

OK, now I'll go look.

brb

dka

I copied and pasted this from the Typical Politrick thread, post #15, from January 12th. It was 3am-ish, I had finished watching this film and was so upset I couldn't sleep:

Brace yourself. A nerve has been hit that is recently raw and you are about to see a serious side of me that very few have seen.

As a United States Air Force retiree and one who is still involved with activities at Tyndall and Eglin, I wish I didn't know as much as I do about what is really going on over there. I have always felt that if the truth were known about WHY the war is costing the taxpayers so much that we would have a national uprising like we've never seen before!

Finally a documentary has come out bringing that very truth to light.

We've all heard of KBR Halliburton, but that is just the tip of the multi-billion dollar iceberg fiasco. (www.halliburtonwatch.org)

I highly recommend, if you haven't seen it yet, to buy, not rent, but to buy a copy of "Iraq for Sale: The War Profiteers". I say "buy" because you should buy a copy and make sure everyone you know watches it!

Here's the synopsis:
Private contractors are getting rich while everybody else is suffering....Using whistleblower testimony, firsthand accounts, financial records and classified documents, (the director) levels charges of greed, corruption and incompetence against private contractors and shows the subsequent devastating effect on Americans and Iraqis.

Its not that we don't WANT to pull out of Iraq, but we CAN'T. Every day that we are there, these major corporations are making a fortune. Bloodmoney. Our troops are being held hostage in Iraq by these monsters. If we send 20,000 more troops they don't care. Soldiers are government issue, and expendable. But the biznesses will make 20 Billion more dollars off of them and I guess its worth it right?
It is blatantly criminal. Murder.

I did my time in the USAF as a Services Specialist. I turned down a job with KBR Halliburton 4 years ago when I heard first hand from my friends over there what was happening. They told me then that KBR stood for Kill, Bury and Replace, as that is how it treats its employees. As a D.A.V. Retiree, they welcomed me with open arms, (and open casket!) The only reason I looked into it was because I wanted to get more actively involved as a civilian since the events of that September morning.

Smiling Joe if you hated politicians before...you'll be in a complete rampage after watching this doc. This isn't just another "Fahrenheit 9/11", this is the real deal. And there is a huge media blackout over most of the coverage. I admire your intelligence and way with words and hope you'll watch this.

I've lost sleep over it. (its 3am-I'm still fuming!) I'm currently working with troops state side and abroad to get the word out, to be their mouthpiece, and say what they cannot say for fear of retribution.

When our Generals in charge of our troops are getting fired for speaking out....hell, I'm too pissed to keep writing.

Its sad that when someone has an email joke it circulates around the world in a matter of days, but when something like this comes out, no one has ever heard of it.

I encourage each of you, no, I challenge each of you to watch the film, only 1 hour 15 minutes, and tell at least two friends.

In the meantime go to the site www.halliburtonwatch.org. This is not hype. This is the truth. These Generals that are getting fired are finally able to speak out. My friends that are now high ranking (I've joined in 1984 and served during first Gulf War) are chomping at the bit to retire so they can go public.

(And yes, I served my country like my U.S. Marine Father (rest his soul!) and Marine Mother(combat boots and all) both in World War II, Army and Navy Brothers, (both in Viet Nam) before me, and yes, I even lied about my sexuality so I could serve, and if anyone has a problem with gays in the military they can kiss my ass. I enlisted. I went to Korea during the DMZ crisis. I put my life on the line. I served during the First Gulf War. AND I VOTE. What have YOU done?)

If this is one way that I can still serve my country, by letting the people know the truth, then this shall be my mission. No jokes. No smilies. No cute pictures. I've never been more serious.

And furthermore, this is not a Republican vs Democrat issue as there is much guilt on both sides. This is David vs Goliath. Us vs Them. Let's take back our country. We the people.

Serving your country does not mean donning a uniform and carrying an assault rifle. If doing your part means speaking out, writing letters to your congressmen, sending emails to your friends and family, then please do at least that much.

Just do the right thing.

Enuff said. I'm going to bed.

Kenny

Last edited by drunkkenartist : 01-12-2007 at 03:51 AM.

To this day my feelings have not changed and I have written several letters and forwarded these websites to all I know. I encourage y'all to do the same.
Thank you.

Kenny

I do hope someone comes forward and explains why they feel we are over there. I would love to see another point of view. At this point, even W knows it is a disaster...

In most of the previous wars the US has been entangled in, the government would send so many troops that any retaliation cannot function. We have not done this in the Iraq war.

Needless to say, 90000 more troops in the next five years isn't going to cut it.

We pull out now, the Middle East becomes even more of a political black hole.

And let's face it, the worse it gets in the Arabic states, the less safe everyone around the world is. Think aboug it, it wasn't the Iraq citizens that flew those planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

And please, remember, this is coming from a girl who's father was in the Marine Corps for 27 years and who's best friends are mostly in the USMC.

If the US wants to claim to be the "greatest power in the world" we can't just sit on our laurels and watch people suffer no matter how far away they are.

In most of the previous wars the US has been entangled in, the government would send so many troops that any retaliation cannot function. We have not done this in the Iraq war.

Needless to say, 90000 more troops in the next five years isn't going to cut it.

We pull out now, the Middle East becomes even more of a political black hole.

And let's face it, the worse it gets in the Arabic states, the less safe everyone around the world is. Think aboug it, it wasn't the Iraq citizens that flew those planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

And please, remember, this is coming from a girl who's father was in the Marine Corps for 27 years and who's best friends are mostly in the USMC.

If the US wants to claim to be the "greatest power in the world" we can't just sit on our laurels and watch people suffer no matter how far away they are.

You're right, but it should have been a United Nations issue from the get go. However, for us to pull out and have someone else come in is equivolent to having a building contractor walk off the job and expecting someone to come in and pick up where he left off. It ain't gonna happen.
Sure more troops are needed but from elsewhere in the world as well.
More attention needs to be paid to Iran; not just what they are doing now, but what their role was in this whole thing getting started.

My hubby, a former Marine officer, went to Somalia in '92, shortly before our wedding. I remember how frustrated he was that the peace mission was not quite what it seemed to be, and that was before it got really bad. Somalia is still a nightmare ... will Iraq be any better in 15 years?

NO. We are dealing with a warring culture, this is what they like and this is what they live for.

In most of the previous wars the US has been entangled in, the government would send so many troops that any retaliation cannot function. We have not done this in the Iraq war.

Needless to say, 90000 more troops in the next five years isn't going to cut it.

We pull out now, the Middle East becomes even more of a political black hole.

And let's face it, the worse it gets in the Arabic states, the less safe everyone around the world is. Think aboug it, it wasn't the Iraq citizens that flew those planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

And please, remember, this is coming from a girl who's father was in the Marine Corps for 27 years and who's best friends are mostly in the USMC.

If the US wants to claim to be the "greatest power in the world" we can't just sit on our laurels and watch people suffer no matter how far away they are.

How long have we been stuck in Korea??? Answer: 50+ years, 600,000 dead Koreans, and Fiftyfour thousand U.S.troops killed and 30,000 troops there now for what? Cell phones and Hyundais? We are stuck in Iraq. We started that war. We lynched their leader. We caused the problem, not vice versa. The payback for this will be as long as we consume oil for energy and personal transport. We have thrown the Middle East into chaos by our choice, and we fund our enemies by purchasing their oil. Insane situation, no? And GW says don't criticize me unless you have a solution. With that level of reasoning I fully expect he will bomb Iran to deflect. The situation in Iraq cannot be solved militarily unless we are willing to kill virtually everyone. That's precisely why it's stupid to pick fights with people in their own backyard.

In most of the previous wars the US has been entangled in, the government would send so many troops that any retaliation cannot function. We have not done this in the Iraq war.

Needless to say, 90000 more troops in the next five years isn't going to cut it.

We pull out now, the Middle East becomes even more of a political black hole.

And let's face it, the worse it gets in the Arabic states, the less safe everyone around the world is. Think aboug it, it wasn't the Iraq citizens that flew those planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

And please, remember, this is coming from a girl who's father was in the Marine Corps for 27 years and who's best friends are mostly in the USMC.

If the US wants to claim to be the "greatest power in the world" we can't just sit on our laurels and watch people suffer no matter how far away they are.

Hopefully, you are a drunk. If not, then seek ye therapy. :shock:

NO. We are dealing with a warring culture, this is what they like and this is what they live for.

Having spent considerable time there, I asked the Mommies and Daddies and the Kiddies and to a one, they said "TheSheep, get your wool outa my face, we luv war, espcially since it kills our younguns! How else can we thin out the population?"

you know the reason - very poor leadership in this country - with really bad slogans like "war on terror" and "stay the course", and "weapons of mass destruction". America's image has truly suffered and with good reason. it is truly baffling how our own citizens elected such an administration.

Really, I think not.

The Bu****es, preferred for at least one decade, have come from my very own class(less) group of Baby Boomers. Mind you, idiot younger folks contributed but for the most part, the same early to mid 50s contemporaries of mine, those that watched the horrors of 'Nam, a few protesting against those horrors, they stepped right forward and voted their pocketbooks. Just like Mom and Dad did with Dick Nixon (any of you know who he as?).

How proud I am, those who should have known the best acted the least responsible. And I have the pleasure of knowing them in spades!

Excuse me.............

meanwhile, the decider is taking more money from peter to pay paul. he's spending our money.

please write him and let him know how you feel. president@whitehouse.gov


Bush Plan Reins In Domestic Spending
Proposal Aims to Balance Budget And Fund Wars

President Bush took aim yesterday at domestic spending as part of a plan to balance the budget in five years without raising taxes while increasing funding for the Iraq war and permanently expanding the military.

With the $2.9 trillion budget he submitted to Congress, Bush signaled he would attempt to squeeze spending on health care, education, housing and other domestic programs important to the Democratic majority for the duration of his term. Overall domestic spending would be held below the rate of inflation in the fiscal year that begins Oct. 1 and frozen thereafter.

The new Bush budget would also seek to reduce the rapid rate of growth in Medicare and Medicaid, trimming $101 billion from the two programs over the next five years by reducing payments to health-care providers and forcing wealthier seniors to pay more for physician services and prescription drug coverage. And it would provide additional funds for the Children's Health Insurance Program, but not enough to maintain the same enrollment over the next five years, according to independent analysts.

Bush said his plan would bolster national security while "keeping the economy strong with low taxes and keeping spending under control." But Democratic leaders, who will control the budget process for the first time since Bush took office, immediately denounced the plan as an irresponsible attempt to make costly tax cuts for the wealthy permanent and to finance the war by shortchanging children, the elderly and the nation's long-term fiscal health.

"It is disingenuous for the president to suggest cuts to Medicare and Medicaid that he knows the Congress will not support," said House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.). "It's not going to happen."

Some Democrats also questioned the president's math, saying his budget plan relies on a series of rosy economic assumptions to transform the nation's $248 billion deficit into a $61 billion surplus by 2012. Even if the plan is successful, Democrats noted, the president would only be restoring the country's fiscal condition to the surplus he inherited when he took office in 2001.

"This budget is filled with debt and deception, disconnected from reality, and continues to move America in the wrong direction," said Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad (D-N.D.).

While the spending blueprint met resistance from Democrats, it appeared to shore up the president's position with conservatives in his own party, who have been deeply unhappy with the growth of federal spending over the past six years. In comments to reporters yesterday, Bush emphasized his desire to reduce the number of congressional pork-barrel projects, known as earmarks, and acquire a line-term veto -- favorite initiatives of fiscal conservatives.

Extending Bush's first-term tax cuts, a collection of rate reductions and tax credits that has kept more than $1 trillion in taxpayers' pockets since 2001, would cost the Treasury an estimated $374 billion between 2008 and 2012, according to the administration. Most of the cuts are scheduled to expire in 2010.

Bush's advisers yesterday credited the tax cuts for the nation's healthy economy and said keeping them in place is essential to maintaining economic growth. A growing economy, in turn, they said, will continue to stimulate tax collections, making it possible to balance the budget even while paying increasing sums for the Iraq war.

White House budget director Rob Portman stressed that point in a briefing for reporters. "The cost of the war is reflected in the administration's deficit projections," he said. "In fact, there has been a $165 billion decrease in our deficit over the past two years, and that includes all of the war costs that we've incurred during that time."

Bush's proposed fiscal 2008 budget would provide another big boost in spending for the war and overall defense and diplomatic spending. The budget plan includes $623 billion for the military next year, including $141 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and a $50 billion down payment on the president's plan to permanently increase the size of the armed forces by 92,000 over the next five years.


The State Department would receive nearly $35 billion, an increase of more than 20 percent over current spending estimates, plus $3 billion in emergency spending related to the administration's "global war on terror."

Federal agencies other than State, the Pentagon and Homeland Security would receive increases of about 1 percent over 2007 spending estimates, with requests for eight agencies -- including education and environment -- falling below fiscal 2006 levels.

Bush proposes a number of new initiatives, including a plan to boost the size of Pell grants to help students pay for college, a program to fund pilot projects to reduce traffic congestion and a new effort to raise $3 billion in public and private matching funds to improve national parks. But those programs' costs would be offset with cuts elsewhere.

For example, the Education Department's request for discretionary funding would rise $10 million over the 2007 estimate -- about 1 percent less than the agency received in 2006. The increase for Pell grants and an extra $1.2 billion for elementary and secondary education would be paid for in part by slashing subsidies to the banks that provide student loans and eliminating a student loan program for students at vocational and technical schools.

The Justice Department would get about a 1 percent increase, including substantial boosts for counterterrorism and counterintelligence programs and more than 220 new FBI agents. But law enforcement groups say the proposal would effectively cut grants and other assistance to local police by 75 percent at a time when violent crime is rising nationally.

And state officials complained that the president is seeking an 18 percent reduction in funds to provide heating assistance to 5.6 million low-income families, a proposal that would force states either to contribute more money or cut off assistance to about 1 million families.

Democratic budget leaders decried the cuts, many of which have appeared in previous Bush budgets.

"These things have been around the track numerous times and never made it to the finish line," said House Budget Committee Chairman John M. Spratt Jr. (D-S.C.). "It's doubtful they're going to pass."

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) also criticized the president for allowing the alternative minimum tax to expand to millions of additional families by 2012, subjecting them to substantial tax increases. The tax was originally conceived as a way to ensure that wealthy Americans did not escape paying taxes.

Grover G. Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform and a staunch administration advocate, said conservatives are likely to applaud the package. "By putting a line in the sand that says that 'You can -- and I have -- balanced the budget without raising taxes,' then the Democrats have to do the same," Norquist said.

I think you meant to say $20K.

That's a big double ;-) ;-) and a .

Let me first say that I am married to a former Marine Corp officer who has served in war. This thread is very disappointing and narrow-minded. First, you really don't want us to pull out of Iraq at this time. Iran is drooling waiting for that to happen. Iran is out of control and if they gain control in Iraq we will battle there once again in a worse battle. Second, if you will research your stats, our President pulled over 20,000 troops out in the past year. At worst this means that we are discussing the "same 20,000" not an ADDITIONAL 20,000. Also, talk to our service members who have actually been there, most Iraqi people are grateful we are there. Do you really believe that if we pull out now the people in Iraq will successfully establish a democracy on their own with vultures circling them? Not to mention that the country would be a hot bed for more terrorists. The world is just not about you, I know that shocks you but its true. This is the best country on Earth and if you just want to shoot your mouth off with inaccurate information then get the hell out. You have it made here and you certainly have done nothing to deserve that! Some wonderful soldiers before you gladly gave their lives so you can all ***** and moan about decisions made. Yes, mistakes have been made but Democrats made them just as Republicans did. I hope none of you vote again before you try harder to collect accurate facts. You are a total idiot if you want Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Obama the muslim etc in charge of your life. Wake up sheeple!

Let me first say that I am married to a former Marine Corp officer who has served in war. This thread is very disappointing and narrow-minded. First, you really don't want us to pull out of Iraq at this time. Iran is drooling waiting for that to happen. Iran is out of control and if they gain control in Iraq we will battle there once again in a worse battle. Second, if you will research your stats, our President pulled over 20,000 troops out in the past year. At worst this means that we are discussing the "same 20,000" not an ADDITIONAL 20,000. Also, talk to our service members who have actually been there, most Iraqi people are grateful we are there. Do you really believe that if we pull out now the people in Iraq will successfully establish a democracy on their own with vultures circling them? Not to mention that the country would be a hot bed for more terrorists. The world is just not about you, I know that shocks you but its true. This is the best country on Earth and if you just want to shoot your mouth off with inaccurate information then get the hell out. You have it made here and you certainly have done nothing to deserve that! Some wonderful soldiers before you gladly gave their lives so you can all ***** and moan about decisions made. Yes, mistakes have been made but Democrats made them just as Republicans did. I hope none of you vote again before you try harder to collect accurate facts. You are a total idiot if you want Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Obama the muslim etc in charge of your life. Wake up sheeple!

I'm sorry...what?

I beg your pardon, but this land is your land, this land is my land....

I served. I vote. I can say what I want. And I will. And I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I know what in the fudge I'm talking about because I HAVE done my research. And the 20,000 is NOT the 20,000 that returned, but it is 20,000 ON TOP OF THAT.
This war is about the money that is poured into civilian contractors pockets, corporations that OWN the Whitehouse and run this country.
I know this as a fact because I took the time to research it when I filled out my application for KBR Haliburton.
I've talked to several people over there that confirmed everything I found out.
I'm over all this. Believe what you want to believe. I know what's going on, and I'm acting on it, not just running my mouth.

Have a nice day!