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The US War - Five Years On

6thGen avatar
Beach Fanatic
12,409 views
Since the discussion is on-topic, here is an intellectually honest look at the war on terrorism. This is an article I saved from 9/12/06.

The U.S. War, Five Years On
By George Friedman

It has been five years since the Sept. 11 attacks. In thinking about the course of the war against al Qaeda, two facts emerge pre-eminent.

The first is that the war has succeeded far better than anyone would have thought on Sept. 12, 2001. We remember that day clearly, and had anyone told us that there would be no more al Qaeda attacks in the United States for at least five years, we would have been incredulous. Yet there have been no attacks.

The second fact is that the U.S. intervention in the Islamic world has not achieved its operational goals. There are multiple insurgencies under way in Iraq, and the United States does not appear to have sufficient force or strategic intent to suppress them. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has re-emerged as a powerful fighting force. It is possible that the relatively small coalition force -- a force much smaller than that fielded by the defeated Soviets in Afghanistan -- can hold it at bay, but clearly coalition troops cannot annihilate it.

A Strategic Response

The strategic goal of the United States on Sept. 12, 2001, was to prevent any further attacks within the United States. Al Qaeda, defined as the original entity that orchestrated the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole strike and 9/11, has been thrown into disarray and has been unable to mount a follow-on attack without being detected and disrupted. Other groups, loosely linked to al Qaeda or linked only by name or shared ideology, have carried out attacks, but none have been as daring and successful as 9/11.

In response to 9/11, the United States resorted to direct overt and covert intervention throughout the Islamic world. With the first intervention, in Afghanistan, the United States and coalition forces disrupted al Qaeda's base of operations, destabilized the group and forced it on the defensive. Here also, the stage was set for a long guerrilla war that the United States cannot win with the forces available.

The invasion of Iraq, however incoherent the Bush administration's explanation of it might be, achieved two things. First, it convinced Saudi Arabia of the seriousness of American resolve and caused the Saudis to become much more aggressive in cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Second, it allowed the United States to occupy the most strategic ground in the Middle East -- bordering on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran. From here, the United States was able to pose overt threats and to stage covert operations against al Qaeda. Yet by invading Iraq, the United States also set the stage for the current military crisis.

The U.S. strategy was to disrupt al Qaeda in three ways:

1. Bring the intelligence services of Muslim states -- through persuasion, intimidation or coercion -- to provide intelligence that was available only to them on al Qaeda's operations.

2. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq, use main force to disrupt al Qaeda and to intimidate and coerce Islamic states. In other words, use Operation 2 to achieve Operation 1.

3. Use the intelligence gained by these methods to conduct a range of covert operations throughout the world, including in the United States itself, to disrupt al Qaeda operations.

The problem, however, was this. The means used to compel cooperation with the intelligence services in countries such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia involved actions that, while successful in the immediate intent, left U.S. forces exposed on a battleground where the correlation of forces, over time, ceased to favor the United States. In other words, while the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did achieve their immediate ends and did result in effective action against al Qaeda, the outcome was to expose the U.S. forces to exhausting counterinsurgency that they were not configured to win.

Hindsight: The Search for an Ideal Strategy

The ideal outcome likely would have been to carry out the first and third operations without the second. As many would argue, an acceptable outcome would have been to carry out the Afghanistan operation without going into Iraq. This is the crux of the debate that has been raging since the Iraq invasion and that really began earlier, during the Afghan war, albeit in muted form. On the one side, the argument is that by invading Muslim countries, the United States has played into al Qaeda's hands and actually contributed to radicalization among Islamists -- and that by refraining from invasion, the Americans would have reduced the threat posed by al Qaeda. On the other side, the argument has been made that without these two invasions -- the one for direct tactical reasons, the other for psychological and political reasons -- al Qaeda would be able to operate securely and without effective interference from U.S. intelligence and that, therefore, these invasions were the price to be paid.

There are three models, then, that have been proposed as ideals:

1. The United States should have invaded neither Afghanistan nor Iraq, but instead should have relied entirely on covert measures (with various levels of restraint suggested) to defeat al Qaeda.

2. The United States should have invaded Afghanistan to drive out al Qaeda and disrupt the organization, but should not have invaded Iraq.

3. The United States needed to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan -- the former for strategic reasons and to intimidate key players, the latter to disrupt al Qaeda operations and its home base.

It is interesting to pause and consider that the argument is rarely this clear-cut. Those arguing for Option 1 rarely explain how U.S. covert operations would be carried out, and frequently oppose those operations as well. Those who make the second argument fail to explain how, given that the command cell of al Qaeda had escaped Afghanistan, the United States would continue the war -- or more precisely, where the Americans would get the intelligence to fight a covert war. Those who argue for the third course -- the Bush administration -- rarely explain precisely what the strategic purpose of the war was.

In fact, 9/11 created a logic that drove the U.S. responses. Before any covert war could be launched, al Qaeda's operational structure had to be disrupted -- at the very least, to buy time before another attack. Therefore, an attack in Afghanistan had to come first (and did, commencing about a month after 9/11). Calling this an invasion, of course, would be an error: The United States borrowed forces from Russian and Iranian allies in Afghanistan -- and that, coupled with U.S. air power, forced the Taliban out of the cities to disperse, regroup and restart the war later.

Covert War and a Logical Progression

The problem that the United States had with commencing covert operations against al Qaeda was weakness in its intelligence system. To conduct a covert war, you must have excellent intelligence -- and U.S. intelligence on al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11 was not good enough to sustain a global covert effort. The best intelligence on al Qaeda, simply given the nature of the group as well as its ideology, was in the hands of the Pakistanis and the Saudis. At the very least, Islamic governments were more likely to have accumulated the needed intelligence than the CIA was.

The issue was in motivating these governments to cooperate with the U.S. effort. The Saudis in particular were dubious about U.S. will, given previous decades of behavior. Officials in Riyadh frankly were more worried about al Qaeda's behavior within Saudi Arabia if they collaborated with the Americans than they were about the United States acting resolutely. Recall that the Saudis asked U.S. forces to leave Saudi Arabia after 9/11. Changing the kingdom's attitude was a necessary precursor to waging the covert war, just as Afghanistan was a precursor to changing attitudes in Pakistan.

Invading Iraq was a way for the United States to demonstrate will, while occupying strategic territory to bring further pressure against countries like Syria. It was also a facilitator for a global covert war. The information the Saudis started to provide after the U.S. invasion was critical in disrupting al Qaeda operations. And the Saudis did, in fact, pay the price for collaboration: Al Qaeda rose up against the regime, staging its first attack in the kingdom in May 2003, and was repressed.

In this sense, we can see a logical progression. Invading Afghanistan disrupted al Qaeda operations there and forced Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to step up cooperation with the United States. Invading Iraq reshaped Saudi thinking and put the United States in a position to pressure neighboring countries. The two moves together increased U.S. intelligence capabilities decisively and allowed it to disrupt al Qaeda.

But it also placed U.S. forces in a strategically difficult position. Any U.S. intervention in Asia, it has long been noted, places the United States at a massive disadvantage. U.S. troops inevitably will be outnumbered. They also will be fighting on an enemy's home turf, far away from everything familiar and comfortable. If forced into a political war, in which the enemy combatants use the local populace to hide themselves -- and if that populace is itself hostile to the Americans -- the results can be extraordinarily unpleasant. Thus, the same strategy that allowed the United States to disrupt al Qaeda also placed U.S. forces in strategically difficult positions in two theaters of operation.

Mission Creep and Crisis

The root problem was that the United States did not crisply define the mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Obviously, the immediate purpose was to create an environment in which al Qaeda was disrupted and the intelligence services of Muslim states felt compelled to cooperate with the United States. But by revising the mission upward -- from achieving these goals to providing security to rooting out Baathism and the Taliban, then to providing security against insurgents and even to redefining these two societies as democracies -- the United States overreached. The issue was not whether democracy is desirable; the issue was whether the United States had sufficient forces at hand to reshape Iraqi and Afghan societies in the face of resistance.

If the Americans had not at first expected resistance, they certainly discovered that they were facing it shortly after taking control of the major cities of each country. At that moment, they had to make a basic decision between pursuing the United States' own interests or defining the interest as transforming Afghan and Iraqi society. At the moment Washington chose transformation, it had launched into a task it could not fulfill -- or, if it could fulfill it, would be able to do so only with enormously more force than it placed in either country. When we consider that 300,000 Soviet troops could not subdue Afghanistan, we get a sense of how large a force would have been needed.

The point here is this: The means used by the United States to cripple al Qaeda also created a situation that was inherently dangerous to the United States. Unless the mission had been parsed precisely -- with the United States doing what it needed to do to disrupt al Qaeda but not overreaching itself -- the outcome would be what we see now. It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult.

There remains the question of whether the United States could have crippled al Qaeda without invading Iraq -- a move that still would have left Afghanistan in its current state, but which would seem to have been better than the situation now at hand. The answer to that question rests on two elements. First, it is simply not clear that the Saudis' appreciation of the situation, prior to March 2003, would have moved them to cooperate, and extensive diplomacy over the subject prior to the invasion had left the Americans reasonably convinced that the Saudis could do more. Advocates of diplomacy would have to answer the question of what more the United States could have done on that score. Now, perhaps, over time the United States could have developed its own intelligence sources within al Qaeda. But time was exactly what the United States did not have.

But most important, the U.S. leadership underestimated the consequences of an invasion. They set their goals as high as they did because they did not believe that the Iraqis would resist -- and when resistance began, they denied that it involved anything more than the ragtag remnants of the old regime. Their misreading of Iraq was compounded with an extraordinary difficulty in adjusting their thinking as reality unfolded.

But even without the administration's denial, we can see in hindsight that the current crisis was hardwired into the strategy. If the United States wanted to destroy al Qaeda, it had to do things that would suck it into the current situation -- unless it was enormously skilled and nimble, which it certainly was not. In the end, the primary objective -- defending the homeland -- was won at the cost of trying to achieve goals in Iraq and Afghanistan that cannot be achieved.

In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.

The administration is incapable of admitting that it has overreached and led U.S. forces into an impossible position. Its critics fail to understand the intricate connections between the administration's various actions and the failure of al Qaeda to strike inside the United States for five years.

Replies

242
Beach Fanatic
#2
what is the source/publication of the article?
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#3
Option 4 is to let Nancy Pelosi stay over there and nag the enemy into submission:funn:
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#4
The article was written by George Friedman, CEO of Strategic Forecasting, Inc., a private intelligence service.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#5
What a long winded repetitive essay about things Americans already knew, just to try to make his point at the end. :blink:

Edited

Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#6
So a five year span of time without any terrorist attacks in the US justifies the administrations actions regardless of the long term consequences?

If a major terrorist attack comes tomorrow the entire premise of the article becomes a little silly, no?

If we invade Iraq under the premise that a preemptive strike to prevent Saddam from using weapons of mass destruction against us turns up no WMD, then that would look a little silly too? Oops, that happened.

I scares me how some people can continue to delude themselves sheltered, temporarily, by the thinnest of arguments.

Anyone who believes that Bush?s actions in the Mid-east, which resulted in great anti-American sentiment will in any way translate into an increase in long term security for our interests is deluding themselves.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#7
Two questions - what long term consequences are you referring to? How are we less safe, other than because you said so? Dr. Friedman isn't making an argument about the future, he's analyzing the past.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#8
Long term consequences? Gee, I don?t know, maybe the fact that over 50,000 Iraqi civilians have died post US invasion and given the amount of anger felt 9-11 in this country after the death of 3,000 people we might be a little worried about the kind of hatred we have generated.

How are we less safe? Hmmm, well we don?t have unlimited resources and I can speculate that the 300 billion dollars spent on the Iraq War so far would probably have been far better invested in improved security/infrastructure etc.

Maybe Mr. Friedman shouldn?t close the book on his analysis until this whole story has played out.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#9
Since the discussion is on-topic, here is an intellectually honest look at the war on terrorism. This is an article I saved from 9/12/06.

The U.S. War, Five Years On
By George Friedman

The second fact is that the U.S. intervention in the Islamic world has not achieved its operational goals. There are multiple insurgencies under way in Iraq, and the United States does not appear to have sufficient force or strategic intent to suppress them. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has re-emerged as a powerful fighting force. It is possible that the relatively small coalition force -- a force much smaller than that fielded by the defeated Soviets in Afghanistan -- can hold it at bay, but clearly coalition troops cannot annihilate it.

A Strategic Response

The strategic goal of the United States on Sept. 12, 2001, was to prevent any further attacks within the United States. Al Qaeda, defined as the original entity that orchestrated the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole strike and 9/11, has been thrown into disarray and has been unable to mount a follow-on attack without being detected and disrupted. Other groups, loosely linked to al Qaeda or linked only by name or shared ideology, have carried out attacks, but none have been as daring and successful as 9/11.

In response to 9/11, the United States resorted to direct overt and covert intervention throughout the Islamic world. With the first intervention, in Afghanistan, the United States and coalition forces disrupted al Qaeda's base of operations, destabilized the group and forced it on the defensive. Here also, the stage was set for a long guerrilla war that the United States cannot win with the forces available.

The invasion of Iraq, however incoherent the Bush administration's explanation of it might be, achieved two things. First, it convinced Saudi Arabia of the seriousness of American resolve and caused the Saudis to become much more aggressive in cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Second, it allowed the United States to occupy the most strategic ground in the Middle East -- bordering on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran. From here, the United States was able to pose overt threats and to stage covert operations against al Qaeda. Yet by invading Iraq, the United States also set the stage for the current military crisis.

The U.S. strategy was to disrupt al Qaeda in three ways:

1. Bring the intelligence services of Muslim states -- through persuasion, intimidation or coercion -- to provide intelligence that was available only to them on al Qaeda's operations.

2. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq, use main force to disrupt al Qaeda and to intimidate and coerce Islamic states. In other words, use Operation 2 to achieve Operation 1.

3. Use the intelligence gained by these methods to conduct a range of covert operations throughout the world, including in the United States itself, to disrupt al Qaeda operations.

The problem, however, was this. The means used to compel cooperation with the intelligence services in countries such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia involved actions that, while successful in the immediate intent, left U.S. forces exposed on a battleground where the correlation of forces, over time, ceased to favor the United States. In other words, while the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did achieve their immediate ends and did result in effective action against al Qaeda, the outcome was to expose the U.S. forces to exhausting counterinsurgency that they were not configured to win.


There are three models, then, that have been proposed as ideals:

1. The United States should have invaded neither Afghanistan nor Iraq, but instead should have relied entirely on covert measures (with various levels of restraint suggested) to defeat al Qaeda.

2. The United States should have invaded Afghanistan to drive out al Qaeda and disrupt the organization, but should not have invaded Iraq.

Those who argue for the third course -- the Bush administration -- rarely explain precisely what the strategic purpose of the war was.

In fact, 9/11 created a logic that drove the U.S. responses. Before any covert war could be launched, al Qaeda's operational structure had to be disrupted -- at the very least, to buy time before another attack. Therefore, an attack in Afghanistan had to come first (and did, commencing about a month after 9/11). Calling this an invasion, of course, would be an error: The United States borrowed forces from Russian and Iranian allies in Afghanistan -- and that, coupled with U.S. air power, forced the Taliban out of the cities to disperse, regroup and restart the war later.

Covert War and a Logical Progression

The problem that the United States had with commencing covert operations against al Qaeda was weakness in its intelligence system. To conduct a covert war, you must have excellent intelligence -- and U.S. intelligence on al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11 was not good enough to sustain a global covert effort. The best intelligence on al Qaeda, simply given the nature of the group as well as its ideology, was in the hands of the Pakistanis and the Saudis. At the very least, Islamic governments were more likely to have accumulated the needed intelligence than the CIA was.

But it also placed U.S. forces in a strategically difficult position. Any U.S. intervention in Asia, it has long been noted, places the United States at a massive disadvantage. U.S. troops inevitably will be outnumbered. They also will be fighting on an enemy's home turf, far away from everything familiar and comfortable. If forced into a political war, in which the enemy combatants use the local populace to hide themselves -- and if that populace is itself hostile to the Americans -- the results can be extraordinarily unpleasant. Thus, the same strategy that allowed the United States to disrupt al Qaeda also placed U.S. forces in strategically difficult positions in two theaters of operation.

Mission Creep and Crisis

The root problem was that the United States did not crisply define the mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Obviously, the immediate purpose was to create an environment in which al Qaeda was disrupted and the intelligence services of Muslim states felt compelled to cooperate with the United States. But by revising the mission upward -- from achieving these goals to providing security to rooting out Baathism and the Taliban, then to providing security against insurgents and even to redefining these two societies as democracies -- the United States overreached. The issue was not whether democracy is desirable; the issue was whether the United States had sufficient forces at hand to reshape Iraqi and Afghan societies in the face of resistance.

If the Americans had not at first expected resistance, they certainly discovered that they were facing it shortly after taking control of the major cities of each country. At that moment, they had to make a basic decision between pursuing the United States' own interests or defining the interest as transforming Afghan and Iraqi society. At the moment Washington chose transformation, it had launched into a task it could not fulfill -- or, if it could fulfill it, would be able to do so only with enormously more force than it placed in either country.

The point here is this: The means used by the United States to cripple al Qaeda also created a situation that was inherently dangerous to the United States. Unless the mission had been parsed precisely -- with the United States doing what it needed to do to disrupt al Qaeda but not overreaching itself -- the outcome would be what we see now. It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult.

There remains the question of whether the United States could have crippled al Qaeda without invading Iraq -- Now, perhaps, over time the United States could have developed its own intelligence sources within al Qaeda. But time was exactly what the United States did not have.

But most important, the U.S. leadership underestimated the consequences of an invasion. They set their goals as high as they did because they did not believe that the Iraqis would resist -- and when resistance began, they denied that it involved anything more than the ragtag remnants of the old regime. Their misreading of Iraq was compounded with an extraordinary difficulty in adjusting their thinking as reality unfolded.

In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.

The administration is incapable of admitting that it has overreached and led U.S. forces into an impossible position. Its critics fail to understand the intricate connections between the administration's various actions and the failure of al Qaeda to strike inside the United States for five years.


George Friedmans analysis offers a great many reasons why we should NOT have remained in Iraq. Certainly once we gained the information we needed about Al-Qaeda, the funds spent since invasion, could have been much better used to enhance our own security here and in training operatives globally.
I don't believe for one second the US had as limited information they claim. The attack 9/11, while well orchestrated, was well up and beyond what Al-Qaeda had expected. We give them too much credit.
I do not think they expected all the towers 9/11 to come crumbling down, or that they would cause chaos in our economy, and I recall them admitting that.

No I do not feel safer just because US troops are in Iraq. (and I have high regard for our military)
Al-Qaeda is spread out all over the world.
Perhaps Mr. Friedman could give us a real reason why we are still there aside from being good ole boys staying to rebuild an infrastructure as we claim we are doing?

Edited

6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#10
Long term consequences? Gee, I don?t know, maybe the fact that over 50,000 Iraqi civilians have died post US invasion and given the amount of anger felt 9-11 in this country after the death of 3,000 people we might be a little worried about the kind of hatred we have generated.

How are we less safe? Hmmm, well we don?t have unlimited resources and I can speculate that the 300 billion dollars spent on the Iraq War so far would probably have been far better invested in improved security/infrastructure etc.

Maybe Mr. Friedman shouldn?t close the book on his analysis until this whole story has played out.

We've killed 50,000 Iraqis? Or they've killed each other? You prefer a strongman to selectively kill people?

I'd like to hear your suggestions on how we should invest the $300B on security and infrastructure. As for the analysis, Dr. Friedman never stated that he had closed the book on it, so I don't really know what you are talking about there. It's a point in time analysis. Critics of the administration argue that they should have had more of those. Do you disagree with that?
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#11
George Friedmans analysis offers a great many reasons why we should NOT have remained in Iraq. Certainly once we gained the information we needed about Al-Qaeda, the funds spent since invasion, could have been much better used to enhance our own security here and in training operatives globally.
I don't believe for one second the US had as limited information they claim. The attack 9/11, while well orchestrated, was well up and beyond what Al-Qaeda had expected. We give them too much credit.
I do not think they expected all the towers 9/11 to come crumbling down, or that they would cause chaos in our economy, and I recall them admitting that.

No I do not feel safer just because US troops are in Iraq. (and I have high regard for our military)
Al-Qaeda is spread out all over the world.
Perhaps Mr. Friedman could give us a real reason why we are still there aside from being good ole boys staying to rebuild an infrastructure as we claim we are doing?

You see, Mango, the thing about offering an intellectually honest evaluation is that you have to defend it from people cherry picking what they want to critique. You left this part out, "It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult."

As Pat Dye says, hindsight is 50/50. As for why we are still there, it's because the US has consistently proven we don't have the stomach for war, and it's up to us to prove otherwise. We were attacked on 9/11 because we appeared weak, and that's well documented. The current surge is more about proving to the rest of the region, specifically Iran, that we aren't just ready to turn the keys over the the democrats.

On a side note, if you'll recall, the progressives had the discussion amongst themselves during and after WWI. Randolph Bourne played the part of Buchanon, but far more deftly. He argued the title in an unfinished "War is the Health of the State", and time would prove him right. WWI, the concessions at Versailles that followed, and WWII led to the consolidation of Federal power and move towards socialism that we are trying to undo. John Dewey played the part of the Neocon that everyone loves to hate. Dewey argued that America should use its power to spread democracy throughout the world, and argued that the ends justified the means. Funny how things come back around. If we had remained as isolationists, Europe and the worldwide power balance would look much different than it does now. However, we are all learning the hard way that spreading democracy isn't easy. In Iraq, we took a chance and we lost. We took the only realistic chance available. Did you believe at the time that it would have been best to attack Iraq, get what we need and leave the country in a mess? I'm guessing not.
John R avatar
needs to get out more
#12
I look forward to discussing this article with Mr. Friedman at the mensa picnic, to see where he stands on these views now.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#13
I think he's bringing the potato salad.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#14
We've killed 50,000 Iraqis? Or they've killed each other? You prefer a strongman to selectively kill people?

I'd like to hear your suggestions on how we should invest the $300B on security and infrastructure. As for the analysis, Dr. Friedman never stated that he had closed the book on it, so I don't really know what you are talking about there. It's a point in time analysis. Critics of the administration argue that they should have had more of those. Do you disagree with that?

Well your average Bush supporter had no trouble blaming the 9-11 deaths on Iraq so I’m curious as to why you feel the Iraqis will look elsewhere for someone to blame for the state of their country.

Whether you or I ‘prefer a strongman’ is irrelevant. Clearly what matters, when we are considering the long term consequences of Bush’s actions, are the opinions of the Iraqis.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/19/iraq.poll.ap/index.html
“Fewer than half in the country, 42 percent, said that life in Iraq now is better than it was under Saddam Hussein, the late dictator accused of murdering tens of thousands during a brutal regime.”

I don’t know about you, but I’m interpreting that as a bad sign of things to come with regards to US interests in Iraq. And that’s not even the scariest part of the equation. The single biggest long term threat to US interests, not just in the region but globally –is the potential destabilization of the oil producing regimes in the gulf. Our economy is dependant on the flow of oil from that region. Period. Anyone want to look up support for the US, or for the US supported regimes in those countries at the moment? Potentially very scary, speaking in the long term.

If those regimes fall- and the fact that the possibility is now real and directly attributable to Bush’s actions- will secure Dubya’s place in history as the President who put the US on the road to national decline.

So now my question to you, 6th Gen, is what is a greater threat to US interests? Domestic Terrorism or the loss of Mid-East Oil?

Edited

Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#15
Forget that the United States Constitution was sent through the shredder in seeking out terrorists.

I seem to recall seeing previews for a movie starring Tom Cruise, where potential crimes were being stopped by the law long before they were even planned out by the criminals, based on what might happen in the future. I for one, will give up security in the name of freedom! Any security which we are being provided is false security at best, and we are losing our freedoms daily because of the politrickshuns. I smell dirty diapers...
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#16
I'd like to hear your suggestions on how we should invest the $300B on security and infrastructure. As for the analysis,

Well gee, let me take you shopping with me and how I could have spent that money. For starters, hire, train and implement Internet Operatives since the Internet has become a safe haven for terrorist operatives who no longer have safe haven geographically in Afghanistan, spend more money in the aerospace and defense industries developing new technologies, use it for scientific purposes to study the use of alternative fuels. Shall I go on? and at the same time, creating new jobs. Imagine that.

You see, Mango, the thing about offering an intellectually honest evaluation is that you have to defend it from people cherry picking what they want to critique. You left this part out, "It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult."

Did you believe at the time that it would have been best to attack Iraq, get what we need and leave the country in a mess? I'm guessing not.

It was very easy to cherry pick Friedman's essay. He left it wide open.
I also noted that his analysis didn't answer the question why we are still there.

Do I believe it best to attack and leave? No, I think the governement should have had a better plan of action than just rolling a bulldozer around without any real plan. All we've done is create further dissent.
Our own National Intelligence Agency issued a report that the Iraq war hs just increased the threat of terrorism.

Edited

6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#17
?Well your average Bush supporter had no trouble blaming the 9-11 deaths on Iraq so I?m curious as to why you feel the Iraqis will look elsewhere for someone to blame for the state of their country.?

Not to be condescending, even though everyone knows I am a condescending ahole, but don?t you have anything beyond anecdotes and rhetoric? If what you state is correct, and neither of us has any way of knowing, the average Bush supporter isn?t very bright. The administration never claimed that. They claimed that Iraq was harboring terrorists, and that is very well documented and beyond dispute. As for blame, the Shiites blame the Sunnis, who blame the Shiites and the Kurds. There is a round robin of weapon pointing. There are not American flags on the shoulder of the ones setting off the car bombs and Iraqis know that.

?Whether you or I ?prefer a strongman? is irrelevant. Clearly what matters, when we are considering the long term consequences of Bush?s actions, are the opinions of the Iraqis.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/19/iraq.poll.ap/index.html
?Fewer than half in the country, 42 percent, said that life in Iraq now is better than it was under Saddam Hussein, the late dictator accused of murdering tens of thousands during a brutal regime.??

It is entirely relevant. You were the one just preaching about the long term. The French felt the same way when the Allies brought the fight through their once peaceful, yet occupied villages. Ask them how they feel about it now. Many of the colonists, hell, colonies, wanted no part of breaking away from Great Britain. Tree of liberty, blood of the tyrants and patriots and stuff. Sacrifice is necessary for change of this nature.

?I don?t know about you, but I?m interpreting that as a bad sign of things to come with regards to US interests in Iraq. And that?s not even the scariest part of the equation. The single biggest long term threat to US interests, not just in the region but globally ?is the potential destabilization of the oil producing regimes in the gulf. Our economy is dependant on the flow of oil from that region. Period. Anyone want to look up support for the US, or for the US supported regimes in those countries at the moment? Potentially very scary, speaking in the long term.?

That?s just not true. The U.S. imports about half of the oil we consume. We import the same amount of Canada that we do from all of the Middle East combined, and we import nearly as much from Mexico as we do from Canada. Yes, destabilization has global and economic consequences, but so do crazy dictators with ties to terrorists overtly threatening you with weapons of mass destruction. Don?t go into the fact that we did not dig up many WMDs, everyone on the planet thought he had them, all of Congress thought that he had them, so don?t tell me you knew he didn?t. The fact is he did, and the weapons were moved to other countries that hate us. As with Al Qaeda, better on the run that locked and loaded.

?If those regimes fall- and the fact that the possibility is now real and directly attributable to Bush?s actions- will secure Dubya?s place in history as the President who put the US on the road to national decline.?

That is nonsense.

?So now my question to you, 6th Gen, is what is a greater threat to US interests? Terrorism or the loss of Mid-East Oil??

Do I still need to answer that or is it pretty obvious?
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#18
Forget that the United States Constitution was sent through the shredder in seeking out terrorists.

Please site some examples.

I seem to recall seeing previews for a movie starring Tom Cruise, where potential crimes were being stopped by the law long before they were even planned out by the criminals, based on what might happen in the future. I for one, will give up security in the name of freedom! Any security which we are being provided is false security at best, and we are losing our freedoms daily because of the politrickshuns. I smell dirty diapers...

I saw a movie with Arnold where they implant a memory chip to make him believe that he saw a woman with three breasts, but I don't think that our government has or would use such a memory chip. That's seriously the only thing I remember from that movie or this analogy would have been much more clever and snarky.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#19
Well gee, let me take you shopping with me and how I could have spent that money. For starters, hire, train and implement Internet Operatives since the Internet has become a safe haven for terrorist operatives who no longer have safe haven geographically in Afghanistan, spend more money in the aerospace and defense industries developing new technologies, use it for scientific purposes to study the use of alternative fuels. Shall I go on? and at the same time, creating new jobs. Imagine that.



It was very easy to cherry pick Friedman's essay. He left it wide open.
I also noted that his analysis didn't answer the question why we are still there.

Do I believe it best to attack and leave? No, I think the governement should have had a better plan of action than just rolling a bulldozer around without any real plan. All we've done is create further dissent.
Our own National Intelligence Agency issued a report that the Iraq war hs just increased the threat of terrorism.

Quickly, because I'm about to head out of town. First, we already do all that. As for creating jobs, the unemployment rate is too low as it is, which will lead to inflation, even Keynes agrees with that. We are due for a recession to correct it. Friedman's essay wasn't written to saw why we should still be there, it was written as an analysis of what has happened. It's not in his intent to tell us why we should be there, so you might as well be complaining that Jim Rome didn't mention why we should be there on his show today.

I agree on the planning, so does everyone else who can fog a mirror. It's not anywhere easy, and hindsight is 50/50, but I'll be the first to admit that the occupation plan sucked. So will Bush. As for the article, I'll read it later. I remember reading it when it came out but I'll have to look at it again. First you have to consider the source. The intelligencies hate any administration by nature. Until they can offer some examples, which is impossible thank God, I'll stand by my assessment.
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#20
Don’t go into the fact that we did not dig up many WMDs, everyone on the planet thought he had them, all of Congress thought that he had them, so don’t tell me you knew he didn’t.
Since a very large portion of the US Citizens can better list the names of the final ten contestants on American Idol than they can list the current US President and Vice President, I find your statement a very large stretch. I keep up with politricks and I didn't know whether or not Saddam had WMD. It would even be a stretch to say that all of the US Senators know this information for certain. All they know is what other, sometimes, uninformed people tell them. I do bet they know that there is much money spent by the taxpayers, and made by their croanies, by going to war. ;-)

Edited

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