http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890
Here is a former terrorist talking about the dangers of appeasement.
The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence.
BY TAWFIK HAMID
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic world's decline, entitled "What Went Wrong?" Astonishingly, there was, among many Western "progressives," a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis's implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.
But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.
These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it. While there are many ideological "rootlets" of Islamism, the main tap root has a name--Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.
It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.
The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years I have been developing and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.
Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamist terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.
Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a fa?ade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.
The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terror attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.
Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the four-month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine's formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.
Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti-Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America's enemies.
Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.
Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand--but so far haven't--that Muslim organizations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered "moderates."
All of this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.
Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.
Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.
Replies
230Banned
anybody whose been to isreal even once know this...
i've seen how christian and jews treat sacred sites of other religions and i've seen how muslim folk treat sacred sites of other religions.
while the christians and jews respect other religions, muslims will slap a mosque even on the temple ground of isreal (the most holy site to all jews) and refuse to let jews ever enter there. they will also desecrate the birthplace of jesus. or blow up an ancient archaeological site important to buddhists. this is not a theory. it's reality.
as i'm all for tolerance, so i think it's important to remember that if you give too great a berth to those who are intolerant, like fundamentalist muslims, you are not ensuring THEIR freedoms, but impeding the freedoms of others.
i've seen how christian and jews treat sacred sites of other religions and i've seen how muslim folk treat sacred sites of other religions.
while the christians and jews respect other religions, muslims will slap a mosque even on the temple ground of isreal (the most holy site to all jews) and refuse to let jews ever enter there. they will also desecrate the birthplace of jesus. or blow up an ancient archaeological site important to buddhists. this is not a theory. it's reality.
as i'm all for tolerance, so i think it's important to remember that if you give too great a berth to those who are intolerant, like fundamentalist muslims, you are not ensuring THEIR freedoms, but impeding the freedoms of others.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
http://www.counterpunch.org/taylor05232006.html
check this description out of "young christian warriors" in the U.S.
If you would like to concede that this fanatical fringe group of Christians represent all Christians, then I would be happy to agree with your broad generalizations about 1 billion muslims drawn from an article about one group of fanatical Muslims.
Be careful not to confuse Arab/American politics with Islam. Just as W and his cabal have characterized our war in the middle east as some sort of good vs. evil ( with God on our side) struggle, similar leaders in the middle east have simply done the same thing; cloaking their agendas in religious fanaticism.
check this description out of "young christian warriors" in the U.S.
If you would like to concede that this fanatical fringe group of Christians represent all Christians, then I would be happy to agree with your broad generalizations about 1 billion muslims drawn from an article about one group of fanatical Muslims.
Be careful not to confuse Arab/American politics with Islam. Just as W and his cabal have characterized our war in the middle east as some sort of good vs. evil ( with God on our side) struggle, similar leaders in the middle east have simply done the same thing; cloaking their agendas in religious fanaticism.
Skunky
http://www.counterpunch.org/taylor05232006.html
check this description out of "young christian warriors" in the U.S.
If you would like to concede that this fanatical fringe group of Christians represent all Christians, then I would be happy to agree with your broad generalizations about 1 billion muslims drawn from an article about one group of fanatical Muslims.
Be careful not to confuse Arab/American politics with Islam. Just as W and his cabal have characterized our war in the middle east as some sort of good vs. evil ( with God on our side) struggle, similar leaders in the middle east have simply done the same thing; cloaking their agendas in religious fanaticism.
I have made a vow not to mix it up too much on the political stuff anymore, but might I state that this is perhaps the most inane post in the history of this forum?:roll:
SoWal Guide
, but might I state that this is perhaps the most inane post in the history of this forum?:roll:
what???? you started all this stuff! and now you're quitting on us? come on!
Beach FanaticAuthor
http://www.counterpunch.org/taylor05232006.html
check this description out of "young christian warriors" in the U.S.
If you would like to concede that this fanatical fringe group of Christians represent all Christians, then I would be happy to agree with your broad generalizations about 1 billion muslims drawn from an article about one group of fanatical Muslims.
Where in The Bible does it command followers to kill non-believers?
Be careful not to confuse Arab/American politics with Islam. Just as W and his cabal have characterized our war in the middle east as some sort of good vs. evil ( with God on our side) struggle, similar leaders in the middle east have simply done the same thing; cloaking their agendas in religious fanaticism.
Islam is as much a political idealogy as it is a religion. You should read books every once in a while. Start with the Qu'ran and read up Sharia.
Skunky
No, Bob started it. :lie: Or was it 30 Gay?:scratch: Ahhh, no more debating over the pixelwaves unless something really has to be said....
Skunky
Where in The Bible does it command followers to kill non-believers?
Islam is as much a political idealogy as it is a religion. You should read books every once in a while. Start with the Qu'ran and read up Sharia.
She has a killer tune out with Beyonce right now, Rancid:funn:
SoWal Insider
"The Trouble with Scotland is it's full of Scots".
Beach Fanatic
Where in The Bible does it command followers to kill non-believers?
Islam is as much a political idealogy as it is a religion. You should read books every once in a while. Start with the Qu'ran and read up Sharia.
" read books" You should try to discuss without being a jerk. Read the Bible and brush up on your evangelical literature. Why don't you read my article on Mr. Luce and open your mind before responding about insane posts. Typical bigoted reponse. Instead of discussing or defending radical Christian right views you choose to simply deem my opinion insane. Your views of Islam seem to come right off of that ridiculous morning FOX news show.
Your point that Islam is a political ideology is exactly what I was saying. People in Muslim countries have used religion to forward their political agendas- no doubt. This is hardly newsworthy. Bush has done the exact same thing. He has framed the War in Iraq as many things but one is clearly as a war where God is on his side.
For further reading, you may want to enlighten yourself regarding the Christian rights belief in the return of Jesus/ rapture/return of the Jews to Palestine cult. Great story but hardly something to base a foreign policy on.
Beach Fanatic
http://www.counterpunch.org/taylor05232006.html
check this description out of "young christian warriors" in the U.S.
If you would like to concede that this fanatical fringe group of Christians represent all Christians, then I would be happy to agree with your broad generalizations about 1 billion muslims drawn from an article about one group of fanatical Muslims.
Be careful not to confuse Arab/American politics with Islam. Just as W and his cabal have characterized our war in the middle east as some sort of good vs. evil ( with God on our side) struggle, similar leaders in the middle east have simply done the same thing; cloaking their agendas in religious fanaticism.
:clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1:
Very well put. Anyone want to rename this thread "The Trouble with Generalizations"?
SoWal Expert
anybody whose been to isreal even once know this...
i've seen how christian and jews treat sacred sites of other religions and i've seen how muslim folk treat sacred sites of other religions.
while the christians and jews respect other religions, muslims will slap a mosque even on the temple ground of isreal (the most holy site to all jews) and refuse to let jews ever enter there.
You don't know your history. Maybe that is what you see in today's world, but it has not always been that way.
SoWal Expert
"...As a matter of fact, the entire system into which you were born and which now, upon completion of high (high?) school you must perhaps face more directly, is a system designed to trap you- and manipulate you as a co-operating slave, a system designed to steep you in Hell.
Hell is living in your fears, and it is through fear, both
subtle and overt, that the system traps you. Fear of failure, fear of social rejection, fear of poverty, fear of punishment, fear of death.
For example, we are taught to fear something called Communism, and millions of Americans go to bed every night wondering if Mao Tse Tung is under their bed. Conversely, on the other side of the world millions of Russians and Chinese go to bed wondering if Henry Kissenger is under their bed. Our totalitarian government uses the hoax of the threat of Communism to control and enslave us, just as the totalitarian Communist governments use the hoax of the threat of capitalism to control and enslave their people. It's an extremely old and obviously effective trick.
You see, the powers behind Communism and the powers behind Capitalism are virtually the same people. We might also include the powers behind the Vatican and the powers behind Islam. Their main function is to mystify the popular mind by creating illusions of omnipotence and omniscience with which to command docility from their subjects, although it does not require much thorough investigation to discover that few of the peoples of this world are happy, healthy, or fulfilled...."
Tom Robbins
Hell is living in your fears, and it is through fear, both
subtle and overt, that the system traps you. Fear of failure, fear of social rejection, fear of poverty, fear of punishment, fear of death.
For example, we are taught to fear something called Communism, and millions of Americans go to bed every night wondering if Mao Tse Tung is under their bed. Conversely, on the other side of the world millions of Russians and Chinese go to bed wondering if Henry Kissenger is under their bed. Our totalitarian government uses the hoax of the threat of Communism to control and enslave us, just as the totalitarian Communist governments use the hoax of the threat of capitalism to control and enslave their people. It's an extremely old and obviously effective trick.
You see, the powers behind Communism and the powers behind Capitalism are virtually the same people. We might also include the powers behind the Vatican and the powers behind Islam. Their main function is to mystify the popular mind by creating illusions of omnipotence and omniscience with which to command docility from their subjects, although it does not require much thorough investigation to discover that few of the peoples of this world are happy, healthy, or fulfilled...."
Tom Robbins
SoWal Guide
"The Trouble with Scotland is it's full of Scots".
love me some scots...
SoWal Insider
http://www.counterpunch.org/taylor05232006.html
check this description out of "young Christian warriors" in the U.S.
If you would like to concede that this fanatical fringe group of Christians represent all Christians, then I would be happy to agree with your broad generalizations about 1 billion Muslims drawn from an article about one group of fanatical Muslims.
Be careful not to confuse Arab/American politics with Islam. Just as W and his cabal have characterized our war in the middle east as some sort of good vs. evil ( with God on our side) struggle, similar leaders in the middle east have simply done the same thing; cloaking their agendas in religious fanaticism.
" read books" You should try to discuss without being a jerk. Read the Bible and brush up on your evangelical literature. Why don't you read my article on Mr. Luce and open your mind before responding about insane posts. Typical bigoted response. Instead of discussing or defending radical Christian right views you choose to simply deem my opinion insane. Your views of Islam seem to come right off of that ridiculous morning FOX news show.
Your point that Islam is a political ideology is exactly what I was saying. People in Muslim countries have used religion to forward their political agendas- no doubt. This is hardly newsworthy. Bush has done the exact same thing. He has framed the War in Iraq as many things but one is clearly as a war where God is on his side.
For further reading, you may want to enlighten yourself regarding the Christian rights belief in the return of Jesus/ rapture/return of the Jews to Palestine cult. Great story but hardly something to base a foreign policy on.
rancid,
first off since I am of Irish decent I am all but too familiar with Christian terrorism. Now with that being said the past is of no relevance to the terrorists we face today. I will specifically address the "Bush hater"
who allows this blind hatred to skew the actual truth about the Geo-political situation that we so gravely face. Generally "progressives" (as they call themselves) are some of the most intolerant among us. The sad reality is that the Muslim extremist will be "off with the heads" of progressives first. This one reality has caused me to often wonder why the progressive culture would prefer to engage the enemy with words instead of bullets. All that being said, most every war currently occurring on our planet has an Islamic connection.
I will end with this statement --most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.
Skunky
" read books" You should try to discuss without being a jerk. Read the Bible and brush up on your evangelical literature. Why don't you read my article on Mr. Luce and open your mind before responding about insane posts. Typical bigoted reponse. Instead of discussing or defending radical Christian right views you choose to simply deem my opinion insane. Your views of Islam seem to come right off of that ridiculous morning FOX news show.
Your point that Islam is a political ideology is exactly what I was saying. People in Muslim countries have used religion to forward their political agendas- no doubt. This is hardly newsworthy. Bush has done the exact same thing. He has framed the War in Iraq as many things but one is clearly as a war where God is on his side.
For further reading, you may want to enlighten yourself regarding the Christian rights belief in the return of Jesus/ rapture/return of the Jews to Palestine cult. Great story but hardly something to base a foreign policy on.
I think you are confusing me with 6th Gen. I said your post was inane. Upon further review, I was correct. But those snake handlers do make me nervous, I tell you what.
SoWal Expert
I wonder if the twenty something people who were killed at Virginia Tech this morning were shot by Muslims, or maybe they were shot by crackers.
Beach Fanatic
rancid,
first off since I am of Irish decent I am all but too familiar with Christian terrorism. Now with that being said the past is of no relevance to the terrorists we face today. I will specifically address the "Bush hater"
who allows this blind hatred to skew the actual truth about the Geo-political situation that we so gravely face. Generally "progressives" (as they call themselves) are some of the most intolerant among us. The sad reality is that the Muslim extremist will be "off with the heads" of progressives first. This one reality has caused me to often wonder why the progressive culture would prefer to engage the enemy with words instead of bullets. All that being said, most every war currently occurring on our planet has an Islamic connection.
I will end with this statement --most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.
Depends how you define terrorist. Ask the 100,000 or so dead Iraqis who a terrorist is. The confusion in the U.S is regarding warfare. We think that if we declare war and then go and kill civilians, that is not terrorism . I believe we call that collateral damage and prefer not to keep a number tally or body count of that. The rest of the World that does not have our military might does not see it that way.
I think your statement about the past having no relevance in todays world is a bit shortsighted. If we had more insight into our meddling in the Middle East over the last 100 years , we would perhaps not be in the quagmire we sadly find ourselves.
The irony of our funding and arming of the Mujahadeen in the 1980's (when it suited our Cold War strategy- I believe they were called freedom fighters then) and their current status as the Taliban (now our evil nemesis) is not lost on most students of history.
Our arming and funding of Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran also later came back to bite us in the **s. Our funding of Pakistan is one small coup away from turning into another mess.
Read further back into your past history and learn how the CIA overthrew a legitimately elected government in Iran b/c of our fear of communism. Our installation of the Shah led to the religious backlash of Ayatollah Khomeini
I won't even get into the Palestinian/Israeli issue
I would suggest to you that almost every current war can also be traced back to Western involvement in those areas. It is a complicated world , one that can be better understood if we acknowledge the complexities and leave out words like good, evil, and terror and discuss the real issues.
SoWal Insider
I wonder if the twenty something people who were killed at Virginia Tech this morning were shot by Muslims, or maybe they were shot by crackers.I think the crackers were on the recieving end today.
SoWal Insider
Depends how you define terrorist. Ask the 100,000 or so dead Iraqis who a terrorist is. The confusion in the U.S is regarding warfare. We think that if we declare war and then go and kill civilians, that is not terrorism . I believe we call that collateral damage and prefer not to keep a number tally or body count of that. The rest of the World that does not have our military might does not see it that way.rancid, Like Bush, most war hawks are "not inquisitive". They would rather tap into that hillbilly rage, than try to figure out what went wrong and why. A good starting point would be mandatory 20th century history classes for everyone. Unfortunately that would presuppose literacy. A good starting point for our foreign policy would be, leave people alone, and realize it's easier to start wars than to end them.
I think your statement about the past having no relevance in todays world is a bit shortsighted. If we had more insight into our meddling in the Middle East over the last 100 years , we would perhaps not be in the quagmire we sadly find ourselves.
The irony of our funding and arming of the Mujahadeen in the 1980's (when it suited our Cold War strategy- I believe they were called freedom fighters then) and their current status as the Taliban (now our evil nemesis) is not lost on most students of history.
Our arming and funding of Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran also later came back to bite us in the **s. Our funding of Pakistan is one small coup away from turning into another mess.
Read further back into your past history and learn how the CIA overthrew a legitimately elected government in Iran b/c of our fear of communism. Our installation of the Shah led to the religious backlash of Ayatollah Khomeini
I won't even get into the Palestinian/Israeli issue
I would suggest to you that almost every current war can also be traced back to Western involvement in those areas. It is a complicated world , one that can be better understood if we acknowledge the complexities and leave out words like good, evil, and terror and discuss the real issues.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Where in The Bible does it command followers to kill non-believers?
Islam is as much a political idealogy as it is a religion. You should read books every once in a while. Start with the Qu'ran and read up Sharia.
check this link out to answer your question.took me 30 seconds during my lunch break and a quick google search.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm :roll:
Skunky
check this link out to answer your question.took me 30 seconds during my lunch break and a quick google search.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm :roll:
Well, now we know what one angry little atheist does on the internet on Sunday mornings
Beach Fanatic
Well, now we know what one angry little atheist does on the internet on Sunday mornings
I believe those are quotes from the Bible. I detect more anger in the Biblical quotes than in the atheist.
Beach Fanatic
"...As a matter of fact, the entire system into which you were born and which now, upon completion of high (high?) school you must perhaps face more directly, is a system designed to trap you- and manipulate you as a co-operating slave, a system designed to steep you in Hell.Love Tom Robbins. What book is the quote from?
Hell is living in your fears, and it is through fear, both
subtle and overt, that the system traps you. Fear of failure, fear of social rejection, fear of poverty, fear of punishment, fear of death.
For example, we are taught to fear something called Communism, and millions of Americans go to bed every night wondering if Mao Tse Tung is under their bed. Conversely, on the other side of the world millions of Russians and Chinese go to bed wondering if Henry Kissenger is under their bed. Our totalitarian government uses the hoax of the threat of Communism to control and enslave us, just as the totalitarian Communist governments use the hoax of the threat of capitalism to control and enslave their people. It's an extremely old and obviously effective trick.
You see, the powers behind Communism and the powers behind Capitalism are virtually the same people. We might also include the powers behind the Vatican and the powers behind Islam. Their main function is to mystify the popular mind by creating illusions of omnipotence and omniscience with which to command docility from their subjects, although it does not require much thorough investigation to discover that few of the peoples of this world are happy, healthy, or fulfilled...."
Tom Robbins
SoWal Expert
Love Tom Robbins. What book is the quote from?It isn't in a book. It is taken from a high school commencement speech which he once gave. You should read the rest of it.>>>here is a copy.<<< :shock: :clap_1::clap_1::clap_1:
Beach Fanatic
It isn't in a book. It is taken from a high school commencement speech which he once gave. You should read the rest of it.>>>here is a copy.<<< :shock: :clap_1::clap_1::clap_1:
That is brilliant! :clap_1: Thanks for sharing it. Quite a lot of wisdom from a high school senior. I would love to see a photo of the audiences faces halfway through that speech. :shock:
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