Gender in the workplace/world

Did you see the story on the nat'l news where when trying to figure out why women in the workplace make like 77c to every $1.00 a man makes they figured it was because women don't negotiate like men do? Over and over, we just say okay, according to this study anyhow. Not only do we need to demand more pay but also more respect for one another as women and we could get so much further. So many women play all these weird workplace power games. Sorry that has been my personal experience only.

I was absolutely floored by the statement in the "Hilary on Dave last night" thread that woman are anti-Hilary because they feel "a woman's place is in the home, not running the country".

Do people seriously believe that women can't do any job they want to?

I am NOT saying that every woman is qualified or suited for every single job, (just as every man isn't qualified or suited for every single job) but that there isn't a good reason why a woman can't do any job she wants.

I've had a variety of jobs - retail and white collar - where people assumed I didn't know something because I was a female or was just there because I was the daughter, spouse, etc. of the business owner. It is rather humorous because it is ALWAYS to their disadvantage (as most "isms" eventually are).

Thoughts?

I would take more time to discuss this, but I have to get back to running my landscape company. I did write a blog that addresses a specific area of this, if you're interested...

I have heard the 77 cent on the dollar figure disputed before since it came from the census bureau and simply considered what a group of women earned versus a group of men with no consideration of occupation. Homework for somebody-what is the trend, and is there a big difference when comparing apples to apples?

I would take more time to discuss this, but I have to get back to running my landscape company. I did write a blog that addresses a specific area of this, if you're interested...

Post or PM the blog link - always interested in hearing more!

Post or PM the blog link - always interested in hearing more!

The blog link is right under my 'tar, but I originally posted it as a [ame="http://www.sowal.com/bb/showthread.php?t=16694"]thread[/ame].

As for the 77 cents on the dollar, I was actually thinking about that this morning. I make the same amount as men in my field(s), but they're highly specialized. I also wonder how it is in the rest of the world, if that's still accurate.

I agree w/ your post/blog statement that "my experience is NOT that there is gender bias in the field, just a gap."

My feeling is that the respective professions/academia are just slowly catching up with the new demographics, not that one gender is more suited to a profession than the other.

I think variations in personality and learning styles will always push certain people towards certain professions, but that the determining traits are not gender based.

The blog link is right under my 'tar, but I originally posted it as a thread.

As for the 77 cents on the dollar, I was actually thinking about that this morning. I make the same amount as men in my field(s), but they're highly specialized. I also wonder how it is in the rest of the world, if that's still accurate.

It was just reported on the national news about a week ago. Think it was NBC. They actually showed the double blind study that offered both men and women the same amt for some simple test. They were told they would be paid between $4 - $11 per test. Then when they came in with the test they were told they would actually be paid $4 per test. The men were like, "Where's the $10. I want $10." They were told okay. The women invariably when told they would actually be paid $4 per test just smiled or looked a little surprised and said okay. It was like they didn't want to make waves or 'say anything'.

I agree w/ your post/blog statement that "my experience is NOT that there is gender bias in the field, just a gap."

My feeling is that the respective professions/academia are just slowly catching up with the new demographics, not that one gender is more suited to a profession than the other.

I think variations in personality and learning styles will always push certain people towards certain professions, but that the determining traits are not gender based.

I was talking about it with two of my professors (the male head of the department and a female with a doctorate.) I asked the male professor what he thought about the disproportion in the field of conducting. He said, "I don't think it's disproportionate."

I looked at him and said, "The world is 51% percent female and 49% male. You're saying that 51% of the conductors are female?"

He said no, he wasn't saying that. (Later he even admitted that conducting was a closed boys' club.) But he and the female professor dove into a discussion about how there are certain professions that require a lot of flexibility; you have to be able to commit to long hours and running off on a moment's notice. A lot of women can't commit to that because of family or won't commit to it because they want to plan for families.

I thought it was a valid point. Several of the females I've asked have answered along the lines of, "I don't want all the headache/responsibility/demands that go with those upper echelon jobs." A lot of the females who have the intelligence, talent and training for the jobs are not as ambitious as their male counterparts; they don't require or desire recognition. I know that's the case with me a lot of times; I don't really care about being famous (I'm already a big deal!) I just want to do what I enjoy and pay the bills.

It was just reported on the national news about a week ago. Think it was NBC. They actually showed the double blind study that offered both men and women the same amt for some simple test. They were told they would be paid between $4 - $11 per test. Then when they came in with the test they were told they would actually be paid $4 per test. The men were like, "Where's the $10. I want $10." They were told okay. The women invariably when told they would actually be paid $4 per test just smiled or looked a little surprised and said okay. It was like they didn't want to make waves or 'say anything'.

Maybe I'm just not girly enough. I want my $10 so that I can get a pedicure.

It was just reported on the national news about a week ago. Think it was NBC. They actually showed the double blind study that offered both men and women the same amt for some simple test. They were told they would be paid between $4 - $11 per test. Then when they came in with the test they were told they would actually be paid $4 per test. The men were like, "Where's the $10. I want $10." They were told okay. The women invariably when told they would actually be paid $4 per test just smiled or looked a little surprised and said okay. It was like they didn't want to make waves or 'say anything'.

Interesting study - did they just divide it between men & women or did they also study age, ethnicity, and region as factors? I have an aunt in Chicago who would have biatched until they gave her $15 just for telling her she'd get $11 then giving her $4! :funn:

IMO women don't make as much money as men because we are women. We are the only ones who can get pregnant. Females of child-bearing age are discriminated against because many employers don't want to spend the time and money to train or promote an employee when her taking maternity leave is looming in the distance. Then females who reach the point where they are finished with childbearing just can't devote as much energy to our jobs as our male counterparts. As much as my husband helps, I was still responsible for managing my job, the house(s), the meal planning, the grocery shopping, the cooking, the laundry, paying the bills, childcare, driving our child to her extracurricular activities, etc. The years of my career in which I was at the point at which I could have been promoted to a higher-level were exactly the years when I had my biggest responsibilities as a wife and mother. How could I possibly compete with males who could put in after-hours face time at the office, eat lunch with the boss, etc., (you know, the networking that gets you ahead) when I was running errands during my lunch hour and doing other non-job-related activities while "the guys" were bonding?

Anyhow, that's my take on it. In my next life I want to be a man.

But he and the female professor dove into a discussion about how there are certain professions that require a lot of flexibility; you have to be able to commit to long hours and running off on a moment's notice. A lot of women can't commit to that because of family or won't commit to it because they want to plan for families.

I thought it was a valid point. Several of the females I've asked have answered along the lines of, "I don't want all the headache/responsibility/demands that go with those upper echelon jobs." A lot of the females who have the intelligence, talent and training for the jobs are not as ambitious as their male counterparts; they don't require or desire recognition. I know that's the case with me a lot of times; I don't really care about being famous (I'm already a big deal!) I just want to do what I enjoy and pay the bills.

I think time management and having the right partner are all HUGE factors in being able to have both a family and a career. No offense to any single parents a.k.a. saints, but having kids is a time and attention consuming job that needs more than one person to share the work load (straight from my parents' mouths).

Seriously, after you give birth/stop nursing, there is no reason why one partner is more responsible for the care of the children than the other. I don't know of many men who are willing to make the career, time, and social sacrifices that society demands from women as a matter of course where family is involved. My guess is that if it became as accepted for men to be househusbands as it is for women to be housewives, women would have no trouble having both a family and career.

Having been in the work place for lots of years (Unfortunately), I have to agree with a lot of what BR says. It is, from a career perspective, unfortunate that women have babies, raise children, cook, clean, etc. Just can't be helped.

The other option is for women to forego the childbearing thing. Tough to do. They are manufactured and programmed to have and raise kids. It affects them in ways that defy explanation, even if they don't have children.

I see a lot of really driven career women who turn into the corporate b$tch. I sense that they really deep down inside hate they way they have become.

Solution

As much as my husband helps, I was still responsible for managing my job, the house(s), the meal planning, the grocery shopping, the cooking, the laundry, paying the bills, childcare, driving our child to her extracurricular activities, etc.

Um, exactly what does your husband "help" with? Yardwork and insect assassination are the only things I didn't notice on your list.

IMO women don't make as much money as men because we are women. We are the only ones who can get pregnant. Females of child-bearing age are discriminated against because many employers don't want to spend the time and money to train or promote an employee when her taking maternity leave is looming in the distance. Then females who reach the point where they are finished with childbearing just can't devote as much energy to our jobs as our male counterparts. As much as my husband helps, I was still responsible for managing my job, the house(s), the meal planning, the grocery shopping, the cooking, the laundry, paying the bills, childcare, driving our child to her extracurricular activities, etc. The years of my career in which I was at the point at which I could have been promoted to a higher-level were exactly the years when I had my biggest responsibilities as a wife and mother. How could I possibly compete with males who could put in after-hours face time at the office, eat lunch with the boss, etc., (you know, the networking that gets you ahead) when I was running errands during my lunch hour and doing other non-job-related activities while "the guys" were bonding?

Anyhow, that's my take on it. In my next life I want to be a man.

Isn't that whole child-rearing thing amazing? I have several friends whose husbands are great with the kids (and a couple whose husbands don't know which end the diaper goes on...) but there is just no substitute for Mommy. My brother will even get frustrated that he can't comfort his children when they want Mommy.

But don't you think the whole maternity-leave conundrum is changing? Women in general are not marrying as soon as they're finished with college; instead of marrying at 22, they marry at 26 or 28 or 30. Plenty of time to actually have a career before kids become an issue. Telecommuting is an option, too. There is less of an excuse these days.

p.s. There is no way I'd want to be a man...In my next life I want to be a kept woman. Heck, there's time for this in THIS life. (Interested parties may submit tax returns from the last five years...)

Having been in the work place for lots of years (Unfortunately), I have to agree with a lot of what BR says. It is, from a career perspective, unfortunate that women have babies, raise children, cook, clean, etc. Just can't be helped.

There's a secret men don't want you to know, but the stove, microwave, dishwasher, and vacuum do NOT require an X chromosome to operate properly! ;-)

And a lot of dinners can be cooked on a BBQ grill!

There's a secret men don't want you to know, but the stove, microwave, dishwasher, and vacuum do NOT require an X chromosome to operate properly! ;-)

And a lot of dinners can be cooked on a BBQ grill!

Like I said, I know lots of men who are great about cooking, cleaning, and vacuuming. They change diapers, they read stories, they help with homework, give baths, and even send Mommy away for weekends with the gulls.

But when baby gets sick, he wants Mommy, not Daddy. When he's really tired and cranky, Daddy is no good. It's a weird thing...

Um, exactly what does your husband "help" with? Yardwork and insect assassination are the only things I didn't notice on your list.

I "manage the house" and am responsible for it. He helps me. Big difference. He does do the yardwork because it is ridicidulous what lawn-care services charge to come in and mow-and-blow in 20 minutes. And he does chores like changing out the flood lights (no way I'm getting on a 24-foot ladder) and "fixing stuff" (not a skill I have).

And he despises grilling because he can't stand getting hot. As a matter of fact, we never grill outside anymore. I do all of the grilling on the George Foreman or the Cuisinart. As an aside, the George Foreman works better even though the Cuisanart gets better reviews.

Maternity leave? When you work for a private company/institution, they don't have to do you any favors.

And he despises grilling because he can't stand getting hot. As a matter of fact, we never grill outside anymore. I do all of the grilling on the George Foreman or the Cuisinart. As an aside, the George Foreman works better even though the Cuisanart gets better reviews.

Maternity leave? When you work for a private company/institution, they don't have to do you any favors.

That's so funny because we had 90% grilled meals in the summer because my parents didn't want the house to get hot/use the oven! It dropped to about 50% in the winter.

I think a lot of it depends on your personal situation. I have a friend whose family is so traditional her parents had an arranged marriage, yet very much against their cultural norm her dad was the one who did a lot of the childcare and cooking because he was a graduate student and her mom worked full time - while having 4 kids. The 5th they both raised as they were both working at that point.

Definitely agree that maternity/paternity leave is a big problem.

Definitely agree that maternity/paternity leave is a big problem.

When I was pregnant with Beach Jacket, I went into labor at 26 weeks which was unviable at that time. I was in Atlanta Medical Center (back then it was called Georgia Baptist Hospital) from late November until late January when my labor was induced at 36 weeks because the stress was tearing us all apart (I went blind due to migraines, husband was a basket case driving back and forth to downtown Atlanta, and Mom got Bell's palsy from the stress).

I started back to work in late March. My employer paid me my full salary for those four months. I really appreciate that. It was totally due to the president of the institution, and that's one of many reasons I love him to this day. I can't tell you how many times he visited me in the hospital. I will always you Walter, and you beautiful wife, too!

Four years after that I got pregnant ... twice. The dean at that time told me, "We don't have to give you any maternity leave or benefits or ensure your job position" (even though I had tenure ). Both pregnancies ended in a miscarriage. I guess that dean was relieved that I lost those babies so that he didn't have to deal with the lawsuits that my husband and I would definitely have pursued if (a) I lost benefits, and (b) my career had been jeopardized.

Four years after that I got pregnant ... twice. The dean at that time told me, "We don't have to give you any maternity leave or benefits or ensure your job position" (even though I had tenure ). Both pregnancies ended in a miscarriage. I guess that dean was relieved that I lost those babies so that he didn't have to deal with the lawsuits that my husband and I would definitely have pursued if (a) I lost benefits, and (b) my career had been jeopardized.

Based on years of my mother's commentary on various tenured tools, I thought you had to basically be convicted of a felony before you lost tenure, not just get preggers! What a crock!

BeachRunner, that boss was a bully. Your story just goes to show what a major difference a good boss makes in a person's life and how much stress a bad, unethical, bullying boss can create in one's life. Sorry to hear about your babies, gull.
How many of you have felt the need to hide your pregnancy or just not mention the fact that you are, while job hunting in fear of not getting the job? I know honesty is the best policy but I confess I have not 'mentioned it' before in interviews.

Sowal is so educational! Never even thought of that.

I would view someone who was knowingly pregnant and intentionally omitted that info during a job interview unfavorably - more so the further along they were. I completely understand WHY you wouldn't want to tell them, but hiring on for a new job that you'll only be able to work for a few months, then will be gone for months...........just doesn't seem fair to the employer and your fellow employees.

That thought aside, are they legally allowed to ask you about pregnancy during an interview even if you look like you're smuggling a basketball? Is it one of the taboo subjects? I know pregnancy discrimination isn't allowed under the law, but don't know the details and enforcement.

Are they allowed to have rules about how soon you can take maternity leave, like you have to work "x" days before you earn benefits like vacation or sick time?

Ha-ha - got part of my answer from Canoehead:

Legally, that information can't be used by the HR person anyway.
(it's amazing all the information that CANNOT be used in interviews)
I can pull out my sheet, but it's extensive. Almost any personal information about race, marital status, age, sexual orientation, etc. For example, I once had a woman tell me that she quit a job to take care of her kids and I couldn't put that on the form - had to put "family reasons" instead.
And then there was the guy that quit a job because "it was in a small town in Mississippi, and I'm really a 'big city f**'".
That was an interesting one - put on form "did not like location."

Why doesn't it seem fair? Are you saying because I moved to a new town and was 12 weeks pregnant I shouldn't get a job because it wouldn't be fair to fellow employees and the employer? How in the heck was I supposed to feed my other child and pay rent? Work was not really an option at that point in my life. I did show up and bust my ass until delivery, had 4 weeks off, then returned as a loyal employee as quickly as possible as requested. Like you mentioned it is a federal offense to discriminate against someone because they are pregnant but happens everyday. That's the reason you can't ask. Why should I volunteer? So you can discriminate? Glad it was so educational. It was for me too. Oh and that was terrible of that woman fror quitting her job to take care of her kids. What a slacker! Too bad you couldn't write that down. Such a shame.

Good gravy! She wasn't criticizing the woman quitting her previous job to take care of her kids, she was just giving me examples of how strictly the law regulates what info you can and cannot use.

As far as my fairness comment, I was thinking that I immediately tell my boss of any future travel plans, terminally ill relatives, dr's appts etc. just out of professional courtesy. That's just for me missing a day or a week, so I'd certainly not be happy with someone not telling me about something that would take them out of commission for weeks or months - especially if the reason I was hiring them was because I needed extra help during that specific time period.

I'm viewing the scenario as specialized work in smaller offices with a limited and shallow employment pool rather than a large corporation with an easily temped job in a large market.

Either way, what does it matter. I only asked how many women have felt the need to not disclose in a job interview the fact that they were pregnant? Instead I get how "unfair" it is to my fellow employees. (You mean the ones hired after me taking 10 cigarette breaks a day on the clock in front of the workplace while I pick up their slack or the one consistently getting wake up , your late calls from the boss???) Why wouldn't you choose to stick up for your fellow sista instead of some imaginary employer? I just don't get It? And why in the world would you view a pregnant woman more unfavorably the further along she went in her pregnancy? People actually pick up on other's vibes and are affected by them physically and mentally, even an unborn child. Stress is deadly actually.
Think I'll go work in the yard for a while...