Saddleback Forum

Perhaps you have not read the musings of our Founding Fathers:

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
?Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together??

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
Patrick Henry:

?It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.? [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

But to quote a few.:clap:

I'd say that the Church has very little actual power in this country. The politicians like to placate the sizable relgious voting public by speaking in pious code and while sickening, this quazi-religiousity has little actual impact on our society.

The religious right is blamed for the difficulty that gays are finding getting marriage rights, for example, but they are basically larger society's convenient scapegoat for its widely held prejudices. Is Obama for "gay marriage"? Was Kerry? No and no. Religion is a nice excuse.

If actual Christianity had such a big impact on U.S. policies, then abortion, capital punishment, aggressive pre-emptive wars, etc, would have no place.

The idea that the Evangelical vote is "important" is based on the fact that it's easy to get and of a decent size so as to be worth getting. People motivated by anger, prejudice, and self-righteousness are easily moved to action. Tell them "Democrats want to kill babies and let the gays marry!" and they are "mobilized".

All that aside, I like what I have seen of Rick Warren. He is not of the Pastor Hagee ilk. He seems to want to do good works rather than just rant about the evils of homosexuality and Islam and the end of the world. It really is telling that we see a Christian minister on TV talking about helping the poor and the hungry around the world and he is "a new kind of Christian leader" in America.

The left need not worry about too much religion though: America is as nihilistic as ever and if anything our faith is in consumerism.

I shudder to think what would happen in Washington if our leaders there weren't being guided by a high moral standard.

Are you serious? Is there another Washington somewhere where they are faithful to their spouses, aren't propositioning their staff, and don't take bribes? :idontno:

. I hate to think what would happen to this country if we completely removed some of our most cherished principals.

I shudder to think what would happen in Washington if our leaders there weren't being guided by a high moral standard.

Also, note that 85% of the country is religious, 80% of that Christian. Politicians involve themselves in forums like this precisely because so many of their constituents believe in God and Christ. To ignore faith in this country would pretty much guarantee they'd never get elected. It's important to a majority of Americans.

I'd also like to add - having been raised Catholic and having a love and respect for that church and it's doctrine, I'm a little insulted by some here implying my church has any similarity to Bin Laden's. You can apply religion in right ways and in wrong ways. Religion is not the enemy here. This country has been guided by religion since its founding. That guidance helped build the richest, most charitable, most prosperous nation in the world. I hate to think what would happen to this country if we completely removed some of our most cherished principals.

I shudder to think what would happen in Washington if our leaders there weren't being guided by a high moral standard.

Also, note that 85% of the country is religious, 80% of that Christian. Politicians involve themselves in forums like this precisely because so many of their constituents believe in God and Christ. To ignore faith in this country would pretty much guarantee they'd never get elected. It's important to a majority of Americans.

I'd also like to add - having been raised Catholic and having a love and respect for that church and it's doctrine, I'm a little insulted by some here implying my church has any similarity to Bin Laden's. You can apply religion in right ways and in wrong ways. Religion is not the enemy here. This country has been guided by religion since its founding. That guidance helped build the richest, most charitable, most prosperous nation in the world. I hate to think what would happen to this country if we completely removed some of our most cherished principals.

I shudder to think what would happen in Washington if our leaders there weren't being guided by a high moral standard.

Moral: of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

You mean the high moral standard of only fighting just wars in defence of our country; of integrity and honesty and justice toward all our citizens; and human rights towards all people of the world; of abiding by the treaties and agreements we sign on to; and the Constitution many of us swore to uphold and protect?

You mean that kind of moral standard?

It has become obvious to me that not only are there many far left zealots on this site but there are many with atheistic leanings as well. That is fine. It is what I and many others put ourselves in harm's way many times for and I am glad you are able to put forth your opinions and thoughts as is, of course, your right as American citizens. Your opinions and thoughts do not agree with mine and, once again that is fine. But bear this in mind. If you should be wrong about many of your ideas, it not only could come back to take away all so many have fought valiantly to protect, it could also really take away all those rights, liberties and freedoms you already "perceive" you have lost and in reality have not. Am I trying to scare you with patriotic rhetoric? No, certainly not. It is impossible to scare or get anyone to accept ideals they do not believe in, in the first place. There is a wide, wide breach in this country between how people see our past, present and future. I just wish it wasn't so, and I am afraid. Afraid these differences will destroy the country I grew up in, fought for and love.