Rifles used by U.S. troops include Bible verse inscriptions - USATODAY.com Rifles used by U.S. troops include Bible verse inscriptions
WASHINGTON (AP) ? Combat rifle sights used by U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan carry references to Bible verses, stoking concerns about whether the inscriptions break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops.
Military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the telescoping sights, which allow troops to pinpoint the enemy day or night.Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,"' according to the King James version of the Bible.
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.
Photos posted on a Defense Department website show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.
The Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's. In 2009 alone, the Marine Corps signed deals worth $66 million for the company's products. Trijicon's scopes and optical devices for guns range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, according to the company's website.
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SoWal Expert
Does the company say why they put those markings on the sights? And that that is actually what they reference?
Seems pretty dumb IMO - are they TRYING to give the Muslims more ammo for a holy war and alienate non-Christians?
I would think that since we were buying $66 MILLION dollars worth of goods from them we could ask for a minor customization.
Seems pretty dumb IMO - are they TRYING to give the Muslims more ammo for a holy war and alienate non-Christians?
I would think that since we were buying $66 MILLION dollars worth of goods from them we could ask for a minor customization.
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SoWal InsiderAuthor
it may be hard to find weapons manufacturers who aren't christians.
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SoWal Insider
SoWal Expert
it may be hard to find weapons manufacturers who aren't christians.
Christians manage to make a wide variety of items w/o putting bible verses on them. :roll:
This is just pucked up and they need to be removed immediately - or we don't buy their product.
Aleo's link gives much more info - along with the very valid reasons WHY it is such a dumbass idea.
Why don't these morons just start engraving cartoons of Muhammed on there and start running ads on Al-Jazeera.
Beach Comber
Trijicon sights are better than Aimpoints sights.
SoWal Expert
Everyone says they are a good product - all I am saying is that $660 million buys us a little "customization" that doesn't give our enemies more justification for a religious war.
The US mililtary can physically outfight anyone - but we SUCK at propaganda wars - and that's what will get us a "win" in this arena.
The US mililtary can physically outfight anyone - but we SUCK at propaganda wars - and that's what will get us a "win" in this arena.
SWGB
Boy did I get this thread wrong, I thought it was that embarrassing day at the temple.
SoWal Expert
"Should Christianity be kept out of the US military? No, Jesus isn't gay!" - Colbert on the Scripture serial numbers on scopes.
He is patenting the "handgre-bible" - they will accept Jesus into their heart, skull, and abdomen.
He is patenting the "handgre-bible" - they will accept Jesus into their heart, skull, and abdomen.
Beach Fanatic
What would we do w/out Colbert?? Thanks, I missed that scooter.
I read about this yesterday and couldn't believe it. BUT I saw "friends" posting about it on FB who think it is "RIGHT ON!" the way to go. I'm amazed...
I read about this yesterday and couldn't believe it. BUT I saw "friends" posting about it on FB who think it is "RIGHT ON!" the way to go. I'm amazed...
Beach Fanatic
http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/tue-january-19-2010-stephen-bosworth
He's The BEST!!!!!! Only way to keep my sanity!
Just click it - it's there
He's The BEST!!!!!! Only way to keep my sanity!
Just click it - it's there
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SWGB
SB and G, you do realize that the show is on Comedy Central and a spoof of right wing conservative talk show hosts?
SoWal Expert
Duh! 
Doesn't mean it isn't a reflection of my opinions.
Doesn't mean it isn't a reflection of my opinions.
Beach Fanatic
As to why the company does this, this article explains that. Many companies are Christian based and put verses on their products. As the article says they are a private business and have as much right to do this as does any company putting a logo on their product.
If the government has a problem with it they have the right to either choose a new vendor or ask for a product that does not contain the verses. However any modification to the product will mean a deviation from their retail product, hence I would expect the cost to be higher. As to choosing another vendor this product is the best made, I guess we might want to ask the soldier in the field which he prefers.
If the government has a problem with it they have the right to either choose a new vendor or ask for a product that does not contain the verses. However any modification to the product will mean a deviation from their retail product, hence I would expect the cost to be higher. As to choosing another vendor this product is the best made, I guess we might want to ask the soldier in the field which he prefers.
January 19, 2010 7:10 a.m. EST
Topics: United States, Offbeat
Kris Alingod - AHN Contributor
Washington, D.C., United States (AHN) - A Michigan-based company that manufactures scopes for firearms is under scrutiny because a report has found that it includes New Testament verses in its products, some of which are used by the U.S. military.
According to ABC, Trijicon has contracts with the Defense Department, including a $660 million multi-year contract to provide 800,000 optical sighting devices to the Marine Corps. The sights contain Bible verses that include JN8:12, which refers to John 8:12, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Kris Alingod - AHN Contributor
Washington, D.C., United States (AHN) - A Michigan-based company that manufactures scopes for firearms is under scrutiny because a report has found that it includes New Testament verses in its products, some of which are used by the U.S. military.
According to ABC, Trijicon has contracts with the Defense Department, including a $660 million multi-year contract to provide 800,000 optical sighting devices to the Marine Corps. The sights contain Bible verses that include JN8:12, which refers to John 8:12, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."The devices from the company are used by American troops in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as to train Afghan soldiers ahead of the scheduled troop drawdown in 2011. According to details of one $33 million contract approved last year by the Defense Department, Trijicon is supplying the Marine Corps. with a device, called M240B medium machine gun day optic, that helps a machine gunner recognize and identify a target.
The U.S. military prohibits proselytizing of any faith in Afghanistan or Iraq, according to ABC. The Army and the Marine Corps said in the report that they were unaware of the Bible codes.
The company told ABC that the New Testament codes are included in the scopes being sold to the U.S. military, and that concerns about the verses were being raised by a group that is not Christian.
Trijicon's website says its vision is, "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom." It adds, "We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals."
The company told ABC that the New Testament codes are included in the scopes being sold to the U.S. military, and that concerns about the verses were being raised by a group that is not Christian.
Trijicon's website says its vision is, "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom." It adds, "We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals."
The issue has ignited debate, with a commenter named Michael Martin on the online Christian news magazine, Worldmag.com, saying, "There is no separation of church and state issue here. The company can put whatever they want to on their product. The government is free to buy, or not buy the product as is."
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SoWal Expert
The problem is not that a private company is adding scripture references to its product (unbeknown to the buyers).
The problem is that we specifically drafted rules about his kind of thing in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarking on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.
Our military and intelligence community identified a major potential issue and took steps to avoid it. These sights are a public relations nightmare.
P.S. How would you feel if our military personnel were issued equipment with verses from the Qur'an on them?
The problem is that we specifically drafted rules about his kind of thing in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarking on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.
Our military and intelligence community identified a major potential issue and took steps to avoid it. These sights are a public relations nightmare.
P.S. How would you feel if our military personnel were issued equipment with verses from the Qur'an on them?
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Bascially I could care less what is on the sights. The question was asked why the company does this and I provided that answer.
It is up to the government to decide if this is a violation of their policy. I just wonder sometimes if anyone reads the news besides me, it seems alot of this back and forth arguing could be curtailed if they did.
But then maybe y'all get enjoyment out of it, I don't know.
Here is another take:
Marines Concerned About Secret Bible Verses on Guns - ABC News
As to the scriptures not being known by the buyer, that is the buyer's problem not the vendor, believe me many do know the verses were there.
So if there is an issue here it is with the government not doing its research on the product they are using. The company was not putting the verses on just the sights being used by the military, the military purchased a product that has a verses on all of them, military use and non military use.
I have no problem with the government making decisions as to whether this product is what is best for our soldiers.
I also have no problem with this private vendor being able to express their personal beliefs. It is up to them to decide if they can get together, and actually only them.
It is up to the government to decide if this is a violation of their policy. I just wonder sometimes if anyone reads the news besides me, it seems alot of this back and forth arguing could be curtailed if they did.
But then maybe y'all get enjoyment out of it, I don't know.
Here is another take:
Marines Concerned About Secret Bible Verses on Guns - ABC News
As to the scriptures not being known by the buyer, that is the buyer's problem not the vendor, believe me many do know the verses were there.
So if there is an issue here it is with the government not doing its research on the product they are using. The company was not putting the verses on just the sights being used by the military, the military purchased a product that has a verses on all of them, military use and non military use.
I have no problem with the government making decisions as to whether this product is what is best for our soldiers.
I also have no problem with this private vendor being able to express their personal beliefs. It is up to them to decide if they can get together, and actually only them.
Edited
Banned
As to why the company does this, this article explains that. Many companies are Christian based and put verses on their products. As the article says they are a private business and have as much right to do this as does any company putting a logo on their product.
If the government has a problem with it they have the right to either choose a new vendor or ask for a product that does not contain the verses. However any modification to the product will mean a deviation from their retail product, hence I would expect the cost to be higher. As to choosing another vendor this product is the best made, I guess we might want to ask the soldier in the field which he prefers.
Higher to leave a few letters off, I doubt it.
This was the reason I stopped buying Brim's products when I lived in Bartlett, Tn. They printed a Bible verse on every bag of chips, I didn't see the the need for it.
SoWal Expert
Aside from the utter stupidity of this whole thing, is anyone else offended that their religious text is being used this way?
Don't know what they are preaching in other churches, but one of mine seriously sent me an email just this morning detailing the steps they are taking to promote the sanctity of life.
Don't know what they are preaching in other churches, but one of mine seriously sent me an email just this morning detailing the steps they are taking to promote the sanctity of life.
Beach Fanatic
Higher to leave a few letters off, I doubt it.
This was the reason I stopped buying Brim's products when I lived in Bartlett, Tn. They printed a Bible verse on every bag of chips, I didn't see the the need for it.
You don't have to see the need to it, and it is your right to not purchase them as much as it their right to put it on there.
As to the cost of sights yes it would cost more to the vendor. They would have to make new molds for this variation. They make all their sights with the verse. They would have to change their entire format to make a deviation.
I think what some of you are missing is this. I respect your right to think that this is unnecesssary, but do you respect the right of this vendor to think it is right.
You can not have it only your way.
Beach Fanatic
Aside from the utter stupidity of this whole thing, is anyone else offended that their religious text is being used this way?
Don't know what they are preaching in other churches, but one of mine seriously sent me an email just this morning detailing the steps they are taking to promote the sanctity of life.
Scooter are you upset they are at war or that they are at war with a gun sight with a bible verse on it.
With me I wish we were not there at all.
As to what they are preaching at my church, they are preaching about service to others, especially Haiti. My church and friends have been in Haiti for years, not trying to change their religious views as many are Catholic and we are Methodist, but to provide medical and humanitarian aid to the millions that are without.
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SoWal Expert
Scooter are you upset they are at war or that they are at war with a gun sight with a bible verse on it.
With me I wish we were not there at all.
As to what they are preaching at my church, they are preaching about service to others, especially Haiti. My church and friends have been in Haiti for years, not trying to change their religious views as many are Catholic and we are Methodist, but to provide medical and humanitarian aid to the millions that are without.
I am upset they are putting Bible verses on guns. And that it is public knowledge in the Middle East. And that I am paying for the double cluster.
Beach Fanatic
SB and G, you do realize that the show is on Comedy Central and a spoof of right wing conservative talk show hosts?
You're sayin' I might not know that he isn't legit? Good one!!
Beach Fanatic
I have no problem with a private vendor either - they should be able to make guns anyway they see fit and according to their beliefs. I think the government should put a halt to purchasing guns with religious messages on them - now that they know. What if the guns were made by an Arab owned family business and we just now found out that there were messages quoting the Koran? I don't think people would be pleased. That is why I always say to keep government secular. If everyone who loves Bible verses on their guns wants to purchase one privately then that is fine, but no verse is where it should stand. Nothing but serial number.
Thanks Minnie and scooter and others for insight into this.
G
I just reread Scooter's post above a few posts = seems like we both thought the same thing when it comes to who's religious message is out there.
Thanks Minnie and scooter and others for insight into this.
G
I just reread Scooter's post above a few posts = seems like we both thought the same thing when it comes to who's religious message is out there.
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SoWal Expert
And it isn't exactly a major retooling process - all they have to do is not have those 6 characters on the end of the serial number.
Pretty simple thing to do and we could then avoid a MASSIVE problem - and maybe just use the scopes w/ unaltered serial numbers in all the other places on the globe where it isn't such a hot button issue.
Pretty simple thing to do and we could then avoid a MASSIVE problem - and maybe just use the scopes w/ unaltered serial numbers in all the other places on the globe where it isn't such a hot button issue.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Scooter are you upset they are at war or that they are at war with a gun sight with a bible verse on it.
With me I wish we were not there at all.
As to what they are preaching at my church, they are preaching about service to others, especially Haiti. My church and friends have been in Haiti for years, not trying to change their religious views as many are Catholic and we are Methodist, but to provide medical and humanitarian aid to the millions that are without.
I think she is upset that Christianity in general is suppose to be about peace and goodness and loving your fellow man(murder is a deadly sin after all) but verses from the bible are adorning weapons being used to kill people. Its very contradictory and sends out a bad message in my opinion. Its very unchristian.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
And it isn't exactly a major retooling process - all they have to do is not have those 6 characters on the end of the serial number.
Pretty simple thing to do and we could then avoid a MASSIVE problem - and maybe just use the scopes w/ unaltered serial numbers in all the other places on the globe where it isn't such a hot button issue.
I would feel the same if we were at war with any country - even if not Muslim. We do not need to purchase anything - be it helmets, guns, tents, belts, etc... with religious messages on them.
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